Season Recap

I decided that that 67 ski areas of 2004-05 snow data was enough to run my programs and update my website this weekend (the one in between 2 Mammoth trips).

2004-05 season summary and snowfall totals for the 67 areas are at:
http://bestsnow.net/summ05.htm .

interesting to note Cannon as the only eastern ski area with an above average winter...

I got the impression that southern New England and the east coast cities had more snow than normal. Note that Snowshoe was also above average. I usually get data from Waterville Valley, but not this year.

FYI Cannon has excellent long-term data but I had lost contact a few years ago. This year I reestablished that connection and got the last 5 years info from them.

As someone that also work with numbers, I am always amazed the data you have.

I have been reading your website info regarding the areas I know in the East and I noticed you had the snow totals for Ste. Anne were the Quebec City Airport stats, if I am not mistaken. I wonder if there isn't any better data out there, I will let you know if I find anything.

Ste. Anne definately receives more snow than the Airport, especially the north side with it's highest base elevation. Had another late season powder day on the North side on April 23 this year (also in the first week of May 2003 or 2002?). The conditions mid-South was rain, parking lot pouring rain, Quebec City definately more rain.

As salida mentioned the above winter year at Cannon, I would be curious about Ottawa. It seemed definately one of the best years since I have been here, the funny thing is the precipation would often make in the form of rain once it hit the Laurentians. Last winter 2004, it was the opposite.

cannon measures in at 4,100 feet for the record (i am assuming the 1800 number next to cannon should be summit elevation?). amazing how much snow got dumped up there in such a short period of time. there wasn't much good skiing at cannon during december and january, and then man oh man was it a winter wonderland!

thanks for posting the season in review tony. your dedication to stats is appreciated.

another interesting thing to note is that mount washington is below average whereas tuckerman ravine is enjoying a great late season run, especially compared to last year. check out before and after shots in the T4T forums if you're interested, it's night and day. speaking of which, i was debating a tucks run this coming weekend just to say i skied in july :lol: :roll: i never thought it would come to this, heh!

My new contact at Cannon, Amy Bassett, says the measurements are still from 1,800. I pursued Cannon this year because it was showing a season-to-date total on its website for the first time. Since the website numbers looked high, I assumed that it was a new measuring spot higher up. But Amy said no.

I welcome new sources of data anytime. In order to be useable it needs to be Nov. 1 to Apr. 30, month by month for at least 10 seasons. Please provide elevation where snow measurements are taken. Anything from Quebec would be appreciated. Data from Europe would really make my day.

ah, nevermind. you are stating the measuring point and i thought you were stating the summit height on your web site. makes sense to quote the measuring point height to allow readers to understand where the value is being recorded from given the difference of snow fall over elevation.

If you go to my historical summary page for the Northeast http://bestsnow.net/eastnet.htm (or any other region) you will see that the second column is lift-serviced elevation range. This provides an easy comparison for how high up the mountain the measuring point is.

nice! that is a really helpful guide in looking at the numbers. interesting how so many of the eastern ski areas measure from mid-mountain or the summit or in stowe's case, above the highest lift serviced (though that's a valuable number to a lot of folks :lol: ). that is very helpful information when the big dump totals come in from areas in the same general area, elevation at the measurement point maybe a contributing factor to snow total differences.

I have the strong impression that measuring elevation seems to matter less in the East than in the West. The two highest snow areas in the East, Jay and Smuggs, measure low. (I haven't fixed it yet, but admin told me Jay's stake is at 1,800). Eastern weather is very volatile with respect to temperature, so most storms seem to be all rain or snow at a given area, with not that many where it's rain at the bottom and snow at the top.

The latter pattern is quite common at places like Whistler and Fernie. And in Colorado most areas measure as high as they can (while staying below treeline for accuracy) and the base facilities typically get about 2/3 as much snow, but of course no rain.

The other point in the East, which my Powder collaborator Leslie Anthony pointed out in 1995, is that latitude is more important than altitude in determining Eastern snow preservation (and, I would add, rain frequency).

The Mt. Mansfield stake measurements are daily and independent of the ski area. They are very complete and credible, but they do run low compared to ski areas' reporting because the snowfall is measured at 4PM rather than early in the morning.

riverc0il":v1zv2e0s said:

speaking of which, i was debating a tucks run this coming weekend just to say i skied in july :lol: :roll: i never thought it would come to this, heh!

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I would love to join you, however my wife beat me to the punch and is going to Toronto for the weekend without the kids, so I will be at home in this terrible heat.

(Because of my Mammoth trip earlier this month, she would probably beat me up with punches if I would go anyway). :lol:

Tony Crocker":v1zv2e0s said:

The other point in the East, which my Powder collaborator Leslie Anthony pointed out in 1995, is that latitude is more important than altitude in determining Eastern snow preservation (and, I would add, rain frequency).

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I would totally agree with that statement, although snow accumulation is generally greater in the Appalachians (Eastern Townships, New England) versus Laurentians, snow conditions north of the St. Lawrence river seems more consistent. There is definately less thaw and rain up North, the same logic also applies as you go further east (north-east in fact) up the St.Lawrence toward Ste.Anne, Massif and Mont Edouard and Le Valinouet. The same can be said also south of the St. Lawrence for Mont Comi, Val d'Irene and other areas close to the Gaspé peninsula (Appalachians also).

http://www.maneige.com/en/conditions2.asp

Here are the yearly numbers from the Quebec Ski Areas Association. Some numbers definately don't make sense and seem low. Example of what seems strange: Camp Fortune received slightly less snow than the Ottawa Airport this year. I emailed Frankontour about some past numbers, I'm sure he would have more to add on these. I'm sure I must have a historical table of opening/closing with snow accumulation for Mont Sutton (it used to be in their trail map like Killington).

i agree about the atlitude not mattering as much as the latitude, except for late and early season, lots of storms early and late can be dumps for mountains like cannon and wildcat and be rain for loon and attitrash.
It seems like elavation matters more in NH then vermont, because when driving through vermont the snowpack seems to stay about the same with change in elevation, but in NH it seems like cannon and wildcat always have atleast double the snow on the ground as attitrash, cranmore, black mountain and loon..... NE snowfall is so wierd :?
then you have jay peak where the surrounding low elavation areas have bearly any snow and jay has a ton, dont know how much the involves elavation as it involves the jay cloud effect

I said that eastern latitude affects preservation, not snowfall.

Both East and West have localized microclimates. Mt. Washington and the Presidentials are an obvious example, and Wildcat is likely close enough to get some effect.

Jay is another case, and one of the things that leaps out in those Quebec stats is that Orford is 150 and Sutton 126 in a year when Jay at 1,800 ft. is 242.

I strongly suspect all those Quebec stats are only the period the ski areas are open, and not the full Nov. 1 - Apr. 30 period needed for a fair comparison to my New England data.

This is one reason I need monthly data. If I can get the full Nov. - Apr. 30 for a couple of Quebec areas, I can then work with complete months between Dec. - Mar. for others and project fair annual totals.

one thing to note regarding measuring elevation and snow totals... with new england we often get the rain/snow mix. so the base area can get NCP all day while the summit gets a foot of powder. for example, my first day at cannon featuring loose gran and death cookies down low whereas a hike to the summit provided boot deep fresh:
http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2005/cannon120404a.htm

fwiw, i notice this at cannon a lot more than other mountains and the franconia notch could certainly be a mini-micro climate of it's own. but the rain/snow line can be a huge difference between which mountains get nothing and which get a foot a fresh, even elevation can mean that difference on the same mountain. i don't dispute it's more of a factor out west, but it is a factor in the east to a certain extent.

Here is a few details about the quebec measurements. I keep track of about 30 representative (by region) ski areas in the province for the last 5 years. Unfortunately, the snowfalls measurements are purely marketing for a lot of mountains. Example : the neighbour of Mt Tremblant, Mont Blanc, is exactly copying the snowfalls of Tremblant, which are taken at the summit (1000' over the summit of Mt Blanc). In the St-Sauveur valley, all the ski areas have the same snowfalls, while Ski Morin Heights is getting almost twice what the other areas get, as it's in a special micro-climate. Most of the ski areas forget to count a lot of storms or the cheat. It's why it's tough to see what is real and what is not.

So here is a list of a few ski areas where I think the accumulations are enough fair, but I still indicated if in my opinion the accumulations are possibly a little bit overestimated or lowerestimated.

Sorry if it's a little bit small... 480px oblige...

As you can see, the 2000-01 season was a killer one in the province, especially in the townships. Owl's Head (not present in the list, cause they didn't compile stats in 2004-05 so it was a bad snow year) got 300 inches of snow that year, which is incredibly good for a ski area in the province ! Sutton probably got it also, that year, but they measure snow only at the bottom of the mountain, while the other ski areas of the townships measure the snow at the top, I seriously think.

In general, it's the Massif du Sud and the Valinouet, which receive around 200 inches by year in average that lead the snowfalls in the province. Both mountains are high in elevation, with a base around 1700 feet and have a mountain climate, it's why they get more snow than the other places

Well, it's about that

I know that Frank shares my obsession with snow and skiing, so perhaps he can dig a little more.

Did this info come from calling marketing directors or from Patrick's web reference?

If the latter, is that site maintained on a timely basis during the season? If so, the season totals can be saved at the end of each month, and some monthly info derived from that.

If you're calling marketing directors please ask for the data month by month. Season totals are not consistent based upon opening and closing dates. Also, it's easier to spot suspicious monthly data because of glaring inconsistencies vs. nearby areas.

I guess Jay really does get twice as much snow as the Townships: 513 vs. 240/250 at Sutton/Orford in 2001.

Leslie Anthony thought Le Massif was a real stash because of "lake effect" off the unfrozen Gulf of St. Lawrence. And you think it's overstated? Are they just measuring high on the mountain and get more rain at low elevation?

Valinouet/Edouard are the farthest north and also get respectable snow, thus explaining the relatively long lasting natural snowpack.

If NASJA ever has another meeting in Quebec, I guess I need to drop by Massif du Sud.

The information I have is from the same link as Patrick wrote.

The informations are entered on a daily basis, but there is no month-by-month analysis.

However, weekly, I keep the track of the accumulations since 2002 for about 30 mountains and for the last 2-3 years, I kept on my e-mails the daily table for most of the ski areas of the province. By this way, I already noticed where there was some impossible things and I was removing the ski areas of my list of "fair" ski areas when some of these cases occurs.

For the Massif, they take their mesurements at the top of the mountain I think, because there is almost zero base of snow at the base of the mountain, which is only at 100' over the St-Lawrence river level and facing East. Also, when I went there in 2002, they were announcing 3 feet of snow in the last week... while as I was looking the table, I noticed that there was no daily snow announced... and when I arrived there, the conditions were extremely far from some new snow ! Many persons that I know experienced the same kind of things and in 2003-04, the natural snow trails were almost unskiable in early march due to lack of snow... while they were saying having received something like 150" of snow since the beginning of the year ! lol !

Jay Peak / Sutton. These 2 ski areas are quite close. Sutton usually gets about 60-75% of the snow of Jay Peak, on the upper mountain. However, the stats announced are the ones of lower mountain. In 2000-2001, Sutton probably got something like 300-350" of snow on the higher elevations ! Also note that I have only the stats as of april 1... and there was a few more snowfalls after that date.

The farthest on north mountain of the list is Mt Gallix on the Côte Nord. It's more than 500 miles north-eastern from Montreal at 50°11' 43" However, there not enough lakes effect there to bring a lot of snow in the area. However, the mountain should be skiable easily in june, especially the more north-facing trails.

Another mountain which holds the snow a really long time is the Mt Grand-Fonds... which still had 1-2 feet of snowdepth in the woods at summit on may 21, when I went snowshoeing !

Finally, I must say that the mountain with potentially the most snow in the province is not in the association of ski areas of the province. The Mont Miller, in Gaspesia has its base at 2000' and gets something like 300" of snow in average by year. It's about the same weather as the Chic-Chocs.

Tony Crocker":27zittbx said:

Leslie Anthony thought Le Massif was a real stash because of "lake effect" off the unfrozen Gulf of St. Lawrence. And you think it's overstated? Are they just measuring high on the mountain and get more rain at low elevation?

Valinouet/Edouard are the farthest north and also get respectable snow, thus explaining the relatively long lasting natural snowpack.

If NASJA ever has another meeting in Quebec, I guess I need to drop by Massif du Sud.

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My impression (a bit first and most second hand) is that Le Massif gets alot of snow, most of the Charlevoix region does. There is a definate variation in snow accumulation on the altitude here. Snowbanks on each side of the road to the village were higher than the car during my first (non-skiing visit) back in mid-March 1985.

Part of the impression of the "powder stash" might be inherent to the fact that in the 80s, access/lift to the ski runs were buses (similar to cat skiing). So it was powder skiing. Skiing was 4 runs per day, 5 runs for advanced.

Frank, why do you think that Edouard number is overestimated versus Le Valinouet?

No to say that Valinouet numbers aren't correct, but other factor that explains important snow accumulation. Altitude, latitude, mountain climate helps, but you have to take into account weather patterns. For example, Nanisika (Nunavut) at 642 meters altitude only get 175cm of snow on average. It has the first three factors, but weather doesn't favour important amount of precipitation. However, I'm sure that the snow retension is very good. 8)

For Mt Edouard, when we got there this year in late march, they their snowfalls amounts were around 5 meters of snow (200'), but we had noticed in march that the amount of snowfalls totals was climbing faster than the daily snowfalls. More, when we got there, the snow basis was really, really poor on the lower mountain (even though nothing had melted yet) and was not so much big on the upper mountain. It's sure that this ski area is quite affected by the wind, but not that much !