Ski Weather Phenomena: East vs West

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator's note: This topic grew out of another. Tony's comments grew out of an explanation of what happened to Killington's opening day snowpack located here.

Thanks for the helpful and detailed explanation.

I would guess that the normal winter weather at Big Bear nearly half the time is warm days but at least a few hours of snowmaking at night. They stay in "maintenance mode" in this typical scenario. In November-January new terrain opens up usually only when they get 24-hour snowmaking, or the rare substantial storm like a year ago.

I also have observed that snow preserves better in low humidity than high humidity. Baldy gets a marine layer cloud/fog frequently in the afternoons that almost never gets as far inland as Big Bear. A related factor that I observe at Mammoth is that its chronic wind tends to result in snow sublimating directly into the atmosphere on some spring days, leaving the snow surface dry instead of forming a typical wet/slushy layer. I've had an occasional calm April day at Mammoth and noticed a much swifter transition to spring conditions than normal.

New England does not often have the "cold air behind the storm" weather that is almost automatic here. It does make me wonder how Killington ever managed to open in October in the old days. Part of it was probably Upper Cascade/mid-station loading setup. Any opinions whether Glades/Canyon are still skiable now if there were a way to transport to them?
 
Tony Crocker":1hzyumw7 said:
New England does not often have the "cold air behind the storm" weather that is almost automatic here.

Oh, man...-25F isn't cold enough for you? :roll: Tony, don't equate an October weather pattern as a winter norm for the area. You've never felt hellacious northwesterlies ushering in frigid air like happens in New England.
 
Last year I drove to Sugarbush to ski on there anniversary day just on Christmas eve. I drove to Waterbury to stay with friends on an evening of tropical like downpour with temps approaching the mid 60's. There was no snow on the backside of this storm :cry: The next morning it was -10 at the base of the mountain :shock: . That's a 70 degree swing in less than 12 hours! The snow had frozen into a solid block of "white ice". it made for an interesting day of skiing. Since it was only $5 for a lift ticket most of the people I was skiing with bailed after a couple of runs :roll: . I hung out until 1:00 until I got hungry and I didn't want to pay for food at the lodge.
 
You guys missed my point. Of course I know that New England cold is far more extreme than what we get here. Here, cold is associated with precipitation, and in particular immediately afterward. Thus the clear days tend to be warm and the stormy days snowy. I'm sure admin has noticed this in Utah by now.

From what I see temps and precip are at least independent in New England and if there is any correlation it's the wrong way. I've seen quite a few monthly summary sheets for Mt. Mansfield. Often I'll find a winter month with only one day the whole month above freezing, but often as not there will be rain on that day. And it seems to be accepted by nearly everyone that it doesn't snow on those -20 days.

This is IMHO the fundamental reason eastern snow conditions "suck by western standards."
 
Tony Crocker":3mjw7zm6 said:
Thus the clear days tend to be warm and the stormy days snowy. I'm sure admin has noticed this in Utah by now.

From what I see temps and precip are at least independent in New England and if there is any correlation it's the wrong way. I've seen quite a few monthly summary sheets for Mt. Mansfield. Often I'll find a winter month with only one day the whole month above freezing, but often as not there will be rain on that day. And it seems to be accepted by nearly everyone that it doesn't snow on those -20 days.

That's what happens when a low tracks up the western side of the Appalachians in a northeasterly direction into Canada, placing New England on the warm side of the storm and sucking ample moisture in off the Atlantic. Those are ugly, ugly storm tracks for skiers. Inevitably the strong storm sucks in a dramatic cold front in its wake, bringing a biting Northwesterly blast in behind it. It happens at least several times per year, no matter how good a winter it is. If folks are lucky, things will be crummy for a few days before the trough in the jetstream shifts further east, this time bringing a second significant low along its path tracking up the coast, still accessing the ocean moisture but this time putting the mountains on the "cold side" of the low. These "nor'easters" are what bring the big dumps to 90% of New England ski resorts. If the second low tracks in this manner, the negative effects of the first storm are quickly forgotten. In crappy winters, literally multiple storms can track west of the mountains, leading to multiple rain-hard freeze-rain-hard freeze cycles.

Sounds like fun, huh? :roll:

The lack of blasting cold winds behind a storm I noticed here almost immediately. In the Northeast, we'd always wonder if everything would get windscoured on the backside of a storm, which is why it made storm-day skiing that much more important. Here it just gets sunny and glorious.
 
Marc, Ah don't remind me, those western Appalachian storms. Typical forecast: Snow changing to rain and freezing rain mixed with ice pellets then tapering off to flurries with plunging temperatures. Then to top if off the non skiers say something like "at least it didn't snow." Planning our MRG /Jaypeak trips today and was just thinking about those infamous weather patterns.
 
Tony Crocker":k1p6luro said:
This is IMHO the fundamental reason eastern snow conditions "suck by western standards."

You could also explain it by:
Too many Easterners. Too few acres. 8)
 
Skier density issues are not unique to the East. Former NASJA president Claudia Carbone was flattened by an errant snowboarder while skiing the limited man-made terrain open at Breckenridge in November 2004 and broke her pelvis and a few other bones. She will soon be having vertebra-fusion surgery, also a result of the same accident.

There are a couple of runs at Mt. High West that would make Hunter and Killington weekend skiers feel right at home.
 
The lack of blasting cold winds behind a storm I noticed here almost immediately. In the Northeast, we'd always wonder if everything would get windscoured on the backside of a storm, which is why it made storm-day skiing that much more important. Here it just gets sunny and glorious.
good point from marc on this one. my memory of powder days usually seems to revovle around a cold day that is really dark and cloudly, generally still seeing the backside of the storm trailing off. pretty rare to get a day after the storm that is sunny and glorious.
 
Hi Y'all. I'm the FNG for today.

Reading this post reminded me of a trip we made to ski Smuggs, Jay, and Stowe last January. We drove up in a quintessential New England storm, with snow blowing sideways and whiteout conditions all the way up I-89.

The next day at Smuggs it was bitter cold and blowing. We were stoked to be catching a powder day, and when we got off the lift we were left wondering where the f*k did the snow go? It wasn't on the trails, and it was even hard to find in the woods. We eventually found some wind-loaded spots waaay in the woods.

The next day was a blue-bird at Jay, and the woods were sweet, as the tram had been closed the previous day due to high winds. What a difference a day makes!

Stowe was nothing to write home about, crowded, boiler-plated, and we left at 2pm.
 
although the super cold on the backside of a New England storm that dumps a lot of snow can be a blessing as well as evidenced by this day 1/22/05 last year at Jay Peak. The wind wasn't bad (had moved through overnight) and there was a lot of powder in the trees! The best part was that there was nobody there to ski it because it was "too cold" :roll: . Everyone in the group I was with had a great time. As long as you dress for it, the cold factor can be minimized. Of course it is not a upper 20's blue bird day that occurs so often out west but I'll take it over rain any day. :wink:
 

Attachments

  • NorthGlade_snowboard.JPG
    NorthGlade_snowboard.JPG
    37 KB · Views: 14,115
  • frostyface.JPG
    frostyface.JPG
    12.5 KB · Views: 14,116
  • Is it broken.JPG
    Is it broken.JPG
    14.7 KB · Views: 14,118
From_the_NEK":1721f2ru said:
... but I'll take it over rain any day. :wink:

I still have my "rain coat" with the Jay peak logo on it. And Jay Peak is where I discovered the wonders of Rain-X on the goggles. :p
 
I can't believe you guys were riding the Green Mountain Freezer on a day like that!
 
Admin":2xu85nnz said:
I can't believe you guys were riding the Green Mountain Freezer on a day like that!

have you gone soft out there in the land of sunny days and deep snow?
 
Admin":md3pwtqm said:
I can't believe you guys were riding the Green Mountain Freezer on a day like that!
worse than that, i can't believe it was done with exposed skin!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock:
 
It is amazing how much warmer having a beard keeps your face. I typically grow one every year (already started this year's). O:) I also have a neck gator that I typically pull up over my face when it gets too cold. None of us got frost bite that day. We were keeping an eye on each other.
 
salida":3nomt44w said:
have you gone soft out there in the land of sunny days and deep snow?

Yeah. What's your point? :lol:

Guess I've got to ditch the goatee in favor of a full beard.
 
From_the_NEK":wyd46rro said:
It is amazing how much warmer having a beard keeps your face.
while i generally keep my face clean shaven, i never shave on weekends for more reasons than just being lazy. my facial air tends to grow in REAL quick which is a pain for having to shave frequently but great for a cold sunday afternoon. or better yet, a week ski vacation that i come back from looking like an amazon man or something.
 
I discovered the joy of bearded skiing a couple years ago and it is now a time-honored tradition. Until it hits -10, I'm nice and cozy...snotsicles and all.
 
Back
Top