Killington information- in case anyone cares

Baldy is VERY small time. They were probably open more days in 2004-05 than any season in history and had only ~50,000 skier visits.

Completely different scale. Killington as a stand alone area I thought was something like 900,000 at its peak. The reconfiguration I recommend is small potatoes for an area like that. Assuming of course that they are not forced to subsidize the boo-boos ASC made elsewhere.
 
Tony Crocker":2j7kjgql said:
I'll display my ignorance here, but in the West do freestyle programs require maintained and prepared courses for typical training programs as well as for higher level events?

Yes. Competition mogul courses are all artificial these days.

3) Spring skiing on groomed trails in the East is often quite unpleasant IMHO. With isothermic snow and relatively flat pitch your skis "stick" in the snow and gravity is not strong enough to overcome it. Skier compacted moguls are the most enjoyable type of skiing in those conditions. So grooming Superstar in the spring seems counterproductive to me and could attract less business than before.


Tony: You're showing your ignorance here, too. ;)
Manmade snow turns into gigantic corn crystals in the late spring. You can knock the moguls down and the skiing surface is quite good. You don't stick at all since it's corn, not western superglue. Depending on how deep it is, you often have to ski it like you'd ski cut-up powder. Superstar with volkswagen-sized moguls in May isn't enjoyable for many people. They'd actually get far more skier visits if they 50% groomed the trail.
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Thought I'd sound off in here.

We went up to Killington on the wed. before t-day (day before opening) and the k1 was spinning, so was the glades triple. Many employees were riding the lifts and skiing, looked like fun. We straped the skis to the back packs and started leaving the parking lot, when a blue coat came over to us, skis in hand (with snow on them) and started giving us flak about hiking.

He said, "by hiking on closed trails we would be impeding progress of the mountain operations opening the mountain in time." We proceeded to ask if this was why all the employees were skiing, and also if this is why they didn't open in October b/c to many people were hiking for turns. They didn't seem to have answers to these questions. This gentlemen was exceedingly rude, and pointed to new signs that had just been put up to tell people not to hike on trails with snow on them. A telemarker next to us proceeded to go off on the guy while we escaped to our cars. We drove around the parking lot for a while and reparked, and hiked up skye peak side with our skis then over to k summit. We skied down, and the guy was, to put it mildly not happy that non-employees were skiing the precious snow.

The new K is not nearly as cool as the old one.
 
With regard to Geoff's points:
I talked to the Winter Park rep at the L.A. Ski Show, and he claims that no artificial work is done on the Mary Jane mogul runs. The ski area has attracted so many high level bump skiers plus freestyle training teams over the years that the bumps are of high quality in their natural state. He was not aware of "mogul preparation" in general, though I pointed out to him that it's obviously done when the courses include jumps.

I will dispute the point on spring skiing as I suspect I have done more of it at wider variety of areas than Geoff. The "superglue" is caused primarily by no overnight freeze. Repeated nights above freezing or rain will result in isothermic snow which is especially difficult. Intense grooming will pack it down for maybe half an hour or so, 3-4 times that long if you also salt the snow like Mammoth, Bachelor and Timberline.

My late March 2003 eastern trip had snow similar to an average to below average Memorial Day at Mammoth. Late April at Killington was like 4th of July at Mammoth, except that Mammoth had far more variety of terrain open.
 
Tony Crocker":3l0wdgjv said:
I will dispute the point on spring skiing as I suspect I have done more of it at wider variety of areas than Geoff.
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Don't bet the farm on that one.
 
Admin":d2a6q7e9 said:
Tony Crocker":d2a6q7e9 said:
I will dispute the point on spring skiing as I suspect I have done more of it at wider variety of areas than Geoff.
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Don't bet the farm on that one.
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I also have quite a few hundred days spring skiing at Killington on manmade. ...and that's what we were talking about. I imagine Tony has exactly... err... zero experience with that particular surface. Spring skiing on manmade is usually a very fast surface.
 
Tony Crocker":92xp1kay said:
Late April at Killington was like 4th of July at Mammoth, except that Mammoth had far more variety of terrain open.
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Snow in late April in the East isn't at all the same has the snow I experienced at Mammoth.

Manmade snow texture is totally difference and isn't close to be as grabby as what we had at Mammoth.
 
My point was that I have experienced spring snow, both groomed and ungroomed, in the East. You can add at least 2 months before you get similar surfaces at Mammoth. Has Geoff skied Mammoth or Bachelor in May/June?

I strongly disagree with Patrick's contention about manmade snow. It's much heavier. I suspect even a few easterners (Mark Renson, I'm reminded from his post this weekend how much he loves snowmaking) would agree.
 
Tony Crocker":f3zwrh98 said:
I strongly disagree with Patrick's contention about manmade snow. It's much heavier.
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I strongly agree with Patrick's position. Manmade corns up differently due to the dramatically different crystal structure.

143607main_natural_man.jpg


Images above: The image on the left shows mostly natural snow crystals with some man-made snow underneath. The image on the right shows the snow-ball shaped man-made snow that comes from snow guns. Credit: Eric Erbe/USDA
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Manmade corns up quickly into those wonderful little spring ball bearings. I'm sorry, Tony, but I think you're way off base on this one.
 
salida":3ewt6nhk said:
I'm with admin and patrick on this one...
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Sorry Tony, gonna pile on with the other Easterners on this one.

I had a great comparison last April when skiing in NH. I brought my 4 year old to Bretton Woods on 4/13 for his last day of beginner skiing. It was warm, but the snow was not grabby. Later in the day, my 2 older boys and I checked out the rest of BW...all the snow was manmade, they had groomed the whole mountain (!), yet the snow was not grabby. A little slushy, but not grabby. Note: I did not wax my skis.

On 4/14 I hiked up to Gulf of Slides...weather was the same, skis the same, but obviously there was no manmade snow. Except for the top 4-5 turns on GoS, the snow was so grabby you had to be careful to avoid face plants and double ejections. Each turn produced a bowling ball sized slough that would roll downhill after you.

Natural snow is MUCH grabbier in spring than manmade.
 
JimG.":3p1fog0j said:
Natural snow is MUCH grabbier in spring than manmade.
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Tony, you know the mileage I did last two years at Mammoth and Timberline...you also know my background as an Eastern skier.

Snow surfaces are totally different, the best way to test this for an Easterner is to go at MRG when the snow texture changes (early April). The Spring Snow is more of a mashed potato feel to it (similar to what I've experience at Mammoth), hit the neighbour down the road at Sugarbush, and you'll noticed the difference in texture, feel and speed. On artificial corn snow, you don't necessarily slow down on flat surfaces.

On another debate, I wouldn't call this marginal conditions (as you were talking about my late season in the East), I love skiing in these conditions, way better than the early season mayhem with expensive lift-tickets.
 
I remain skeptical. I did not see the effortless, no friction corn on either of the two Eastern trips, and the second one covered a range of conditions from initial warm-up at Stowe to max temps at MRG to ongoing spring conditions at a couple of the Quebec areas. I almost never see it on the manmade at Big Bear and Mt. High either.

One of the other requirements is light or no skier traffic during the morning warmup phase. That's why Mammoth's runs roped off for race training in early morning have great corn midday. Skier traffic at Big Bear/Mt. High/most eastern areas is not likely to leave the snow undisturbed long enough for the best corn to develop. This is likely a more important reason for the East vs. West difference than whether the snow was natural or manmade in the first place. I do know that the overnight freeze is important because it's obvious skiing the same runs from one day with the freeze to the next day without it.

I've seen eastern skiers describe "corn snow," and I usually comment that they haven't experienced the real thing. Hit Bachelor's Summit in April/May and you'll understand. Admin's early June 2005 runs behind Junior Bounous at Snowbird are another good example. One point of confusion in the East may be that many of the runs with manmade snow are packed by groomers, while the natural snow runs are ungroomed, and if not skier-packed moguls will have very difficult snow with no overnight freeze as I observed at MRG. This difference in the spring snow surface is due to the packing not due to natural vs. manmade.
 
Hmmm ....I have not kept up with FTO or a lot of the Internet for that matter. So much to keep up with and I guess I just don't have the stamina to keep up with it.

Is JoeGM really leaving us? I hope not. He can be a little obnoxious at times, but so what, he adds character - deal with it. Heck, embrace it. I want him to stay. His bump skiing passion is critical in the great glorious patriotic battle to combat McSkiing/BRUTAL GROOMING.

Now, on to this Roemer drama ......it sounds like something outta' some sorta' sitcom :shock: .
 
Mark Renson":3m6ogm14 said:
Is JoeGM really leaving us? I hope not. He can be a little obnoxious at times, but so what, he adds character - deal with it. Heck, embrace it. I want him to stay. His bump skiing passion is critical in the great glorious patriotic battle to combat McSkiing/BRUTAL GROOMING.
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Alas, I agree but JoeGM didn't see it that way. Speaking of "a little obnoxious at times, but so what, he adds character", welcome back, Renson! :wink: Glad to have ya around.

Mark Renson":3m6ogm14 said:
Now, on to this Roemer drama ......it sounds like something outta' some sorta' sitcom :shock: .
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:lol: Yeah, it's keeping me pissed off, amused, appalled and entertained, all at the same time.
 
I'll take one more kick at reconciling the issues about spring snow.

I believe there are 2 issues here. First is the consolidation phase. You will sink in natural snow until it consolidates, and if ungroomed it usually takes 3-5 days of melt/freeze after the powder phase. During that time it will usually have that mashed potato feel. Manmade snow is nearly always on trails, thus groomed by either machinery or skiers and is rarely left unconsolidated. The crystal structure may also play a role here.

The second issue is the water melting on the surface as the day warms up. This is probably the reason I found eastern spring snow inferior. At low humidity some of the snow sublimates directly into the air. I don't think I've ever seen weather in the East (and I lived there 4 years) that I would define as low humidity by L.A. standards, not to mention 10,000 feet in the Sierra standards. Mammoth/Bachelor also help out the spring snow by salting it. The salt further retards liquid water from collecting on the snow surface and producing that sticky sensation. Also, if there is no overnight freeze some of the previous day's water may still be present and the snow will stick some even first thing in the morning.
 
Admin":3elm1p51 said:
Mark Renson":3elm1p51 said:
Is JoeGM really leaving us? I hope not. He can be a little obnoxious at times, but so what, he adds character - deal with it. Heck, embrace it. I want him to stay. His bump skiing passion is critical in the great glorious patriotic battle to combat McSkiing/BRUTAL GROOMING.
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Alas, I agree but JoeGM didn't see it that way. Speaking of "a little obnoxious at times, but so what, he adds character", welcome back, Renson! :wink: Glad to have ya around.
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I couldn't agree more about Joe, he definately adds character and is passion his second to none. Although I'm not a passionate bump skier, I see and agree with his point.

As for Mark, welcome back.

HOWEVER I DON'T AGREE WITH TONY POINTS REGARDING SPRING CONDITIONS SNOW IN THE EAST. IT ISN'T INFERIOR, IT'S DIFFERENT AND DEFINATELY FASTER THAN WESTERN NATURAL SNOW SPRING SURFACES. (Caps were used in hommage to Joe). :wink:
 
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