Killington information- in case anyone cares

joegm

New member
as a few of the more reasonable people on this site that i have pm's recently know, i am pretty much done posting . there are a few reasons but the below listed ridiculous quote from one of the regulars on the site certainly illustrates why i am throwing in the towel

"I am not an instructor. I am not an author. But in my years of skiing I have noticed something. The folks that ski in the woods are hands down the best skiers on the hill. Any skier that can rip a tight line in the woods can also rip mouguls but mougul skiers cant always rip the trees."

i believe this was from nhpowderhound..... whatever

i figured though some may be interested in a recent correspondence that i had via email with allen wilson , the president of Killington. my email was prompted by my friend john emialing the general info line and receiving a totally ridiculous spin doctored response...the following is the original email i sent to wilson, his response and my response to his response...he didn't respond to the second email the main issues are 2 fold.. 1) killingtons lack of mogul runs and 2) killington's abandonment of spring skiing...
HELLO MR WILSON



MY NAME IS ( deleted ) . I, ALONG WITH MY FOUR FRIENDS , ( deleted) ARE WRITING TO YOU TODAY JUST TO EXPRESS SOME OF OUR FEELINGS TO YOU ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT YOUR MOUNTAIN APPEARS TO BE TAKING WITH A NUMBER OF OPERATIONAL ISSUES.



ALL 4 OF US HAVE BEEN SEASON PASSHOLDERS FOR KILLINGTON MOUNTAIN AND THE A.S.C IN THE PAST. ALL OF US HAVE ENJOYED SKIING KILLINGTON FOR SEVERAL YEARS . TO GIVE YOU JUST SOME BRIEF DEMOGRAPHIC?S SO YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE HEARING FROM, WE ARE ALL IN OUR 30?S AND 40?S. ALL OF US HAVE FAMILIES WITH SMALL CHILDREN. NOT ALL OF THE CHILDREN SKI YET BUT SOME OF THEM DO. ALL OF US ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE JOBS THAT ALLOW US TO SKI MID WEEK AND AVOID SKIING ON THE WEEKENDS.



IT IS WITH GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT AND DISPLEASURE THAT ALL OF US HAVE DECIDED NOT TO RENEW -REPURCHASE SEASON PASSES FROM YOUR MOUNTAIN AND THE A.S.C THIS YEAR BASED ON WHAT WE FEEL IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LACK OF RESPECT BEING SHOWN TO US ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS. LET ME LIST THE ISSUES WE HAVE AND THEN I WILL ADDRESS EACH ONE SPECIFICALLY.



1) YOUR MOUNTAIN?S TOTAL LACK OF INVESTMENT IN ANY SORT OF CONSTRUCTED AND REGULARLY MAINTAINED MOGUL RUNS ON BOTH BLUE AND BLACK TRAILS

2) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO COMPLETELY ABANDON SKIING DURING THE MONTH OF MAY

3) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO FORCE AN EXTREMELY PREMATURE DEADLINE FOR PURCHASING A SEASON PASS. ( IF ITEMS 1 AND 2 WERE NOT AN ISSUE, THIS #3 WOULD NTO BE SO MUCH AN ISSUE- I?LL EXPLAIN LATER)



ISSUE: LACK OF CONSISTENT MOGUL TERRAIN: IT IS OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WHO HAS PAID ATTENTION TO THE INDUSTRY AND HOW IT HAS BEEN EVOLVING OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS , THAT THE SO CALLED ? NEW SCHOOL? MOVEMENT OF SKIING HAS BEEN COMING TO THE FOREFRONT AND HAS ENERGIZED THE INDUSTRY. I AM SURE YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH WHAT WOULD BRAODLY DEFINE THE ? NEW SCHOOL ? MOVEMENT MR WILSON . THE PROLIFERATION OF HALF PIPES- JUMPS- RAILS ? AND WHAT THE KIDS CALL ?JIBS?, HAS OBVIOUSLY DEMANDED AND HAS RECEIVED AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION- AND CAN WE SAY RESOURCES FROM THE INDUSTRY IN GENERAL. ANY INDEPENDENT , UNBIASED OBSERVER WOULD SAY THAT ALLOCATING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES TO THIS ? NEW SCHOOL MOVEMENT ? COULD ONLY BE VIEWED AS A SMART BUSINESS DECISION FROM YOUR HILL?S MANAGEMENT PERSPECTIVE. ALL OF US AGREE ON THAT AND IN FACT, MY FRIENDS AND I FULLY SUPPORT IT. NONE OF US, FRANKLY, ARE ABLE TO EVEN CLOSELY COME CLOSE TO UTILIZING OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL OF THIS NEW TERRAIN THAT HAS BEEN INVESTED IN. WE ALL ( THE 4 OF US ) , HOWEVER , FULLY SUPPORT THIS AS IT CLEARLY HAS PLAYED A LARGE PART IN PRODUCING REVENUES FOR YOUR COMPANY. AND FRANKLY , IT IS A LOT OF FUN TO WATCH AS SOME ( AND I EMPHASIZE THE WORD ?SOME? HERE- FOR A LATER POINT ) OF THE PEOPLE WHO DO IN FACT MAKE USE OF THE TERRAIN SKI AT A VERY HIGH SKILL LEVEL. WHAT ANGERS MYSELF AND MY FRIENDS, AND YES MR WILSON, IT IS ANGER, IS THE TOTALLY UNFAIR LACK OF ATTENTION AND RESOURCES THAT IS GIVEN TO ANOTHER ASPECT OF SKIING THAT FRANKLY IS , IN OUR OPINION , THE MOST EXCITING DISIPLINE OF THE SPORT. MOGUL SKIING. OBVIOUSLY THE SPORT OF SKIING IS DEFINED BY MANY DISCIPLINES AND MANY TYPES OF SKIERS COME TO YOUR MOUNTAIN TO TAKE PART IN THE GREAT SPORT OF SKIING. YOUR MOUNTAIN DOES A GREAT JOB SERVICING / CATERING TO PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE TYPE OF SKIER/RIDER THERE IS OUT THERE . RECREATIONAL SKIERS LOOKING FOR CARPET AND CRUISER RUNS ON BLUES- HIGHER LEVEL RECREATIONAL WEEKEND WARRIOR SKIERS LOOKING FOR STEEP CRUISERS WHERE THEY CAN POINT EM DOWN AND SKI 1000MPH AND THINK THEY ARE BODE MILLER- ALPINE RACERS LOOKING FOR GATES AND FLAT STEEP GROOMED OUT COURSES- NEW SCHOOLERS AND JIBBERS LOOKING FOR HALFPIPES- AND RAILS AND 50 FOOT TABLE TOP JUMPS- TREE SKIING FOR OFF PISTE TREE SKIERS. AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN ALL OF THESE THINGS SIR? EXCEPT FOR ONE, UNFORTUNATELY?.. MOGUL SKIING. MR WILSON, IT IS ABSOLUTELY STUNNING TO US THAT A MOUNTAIN THE SIZE OF KILLINGTON, DOES NOT/ REFUSES TO, PUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF RESOURCES INTO HAVING AVAILABLE A CONSISTENTLY MAN MADE AND MAINTAINED BLUE SQUARE AND BLACK DIAMOND MOGUL RUN OF SIGNIFICANT LENGTH. WITH ALL DO RESPECT SIR, THE FACT THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERY OTHER TYPE OF SKIER THAT EXISTS IS TAKEN CARE OF AND HAS STEADY CONSISTENT RELIABLE TERRAIN TO SKI ON EXCEPT RECREATIONAL MOGUL SKIERS IS VERY DISTURBING TO US. I UNDERLINE THE WORD RECREATIONAL SIR, BECAUSE MY FRIENDS AND I ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY SORT OF FREESTYLE TEAM AND WE ARE NOT 15 YEARS OLD. WE ARE JUST REGULAR GUYS WHO LIKE TO SKI MORE THAN GROOMED OUT , FLAT CARPET BUT SINCE WE HAVE TO GO TO WORK AND PAY THE BILLS, WE CANNOT FULLY BECOME PART OF THE ? NEW SCHOOL? CLUB AND HURL OURSELVES OFF 50 FOOT JUMPS OR 18 FOOT HALFPIPE WALLS. WHAT WE CAN DO/ WHAT WE LIKE TO DO/ WHAT WE HAVE WORKED EXTREMELY HARD AT TRYING TO DO IS MOGUL SKI?. MOGUL SKIING , AT ONE TIME, WAS NEW SCHOOL SKIING MR WILSON. THERE WOULD BE NO NEW SCHOOL / HALFPIPE SKIING WITHOUT MOGUL SKIING. AND AGAIN, I CAN?T EMPHASIZE THIS ENGOUGH, NONE OF US HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PUTTING RESOURCES INTO THIS ASPECT , OR ANY OTHER ASPECT OF THE SPORT THAT YOU AND YOUR MARKETING AND ON HILL MANAGERS SEE FIT. BUT IT IS AN ABSOLUTE OUTRAGE THAT YOU AND YOUR ON HILL MANAGERS SEEM TO FEEL THAT YOU CANNOT DEDICATE ANY SIGNIFICANT TIME / ENERGY AND RESOURCES TO HAVING AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC MANAGED MOGUL TERRAIN?.WE EMPHASIZE THE WORD MANAGED BECAUSE WE HAVE FOUND THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS HYPOCRITICAL SCHOOL OF THOUGHT IN THE SKIING INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, THAT MOGUL SKIING ( IF IT IS ALLOWED TO EXIST ALL IS ALL ABOUT JUST LETTING A ( AND ONLY A L ) SUPERSTEEP BLACK DIAMOND TRAIL GO UNGROOMED AND THE RESULTING PILES AND MOUNDS OF SNOW TURN INTO BUMPS. AND HERE IN THE EAST, THAT TERRAIN AND IT ?S RESULTING ICE PILES TYPICALLY IS , FRANKLY, UNSKIABLE JUNK 90% OF THE TIME. I USE THE WORD HYPOCIRITICAL BECAUSE FRANKLY IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE ANY OF YOUR ALPINE RACE TEAMS ( BE THEY RECREATIONAL OR FROM THE KMS SCHOOL ) BEING FORCED TO SKI THE TERRAIN THEY LIKE TO SKI THAT SAY, GOES UNGROOMED, OR UNMAINTAINED FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME. HOW MUCH MONEY DOES A HALF PIPE CUTTER COST TO PURCHASE AND MAINTAIN? I DON?T KNOW FOR SURE BUT I HAVE A FEELING IT IS NOT AVAILABLE AT THE LOCAL SEARS STORE FOR $999 SITTING BESIDE THE LAWN MOWERS ON SALE. I?M PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE A LITTLE HERE BECAUSE I AM COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN TO NOT EVEN PROVIDE IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY- THE MOGUL TERRAIN ITSELF. THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE , BUT MAINTAINING IT AND PROVIDING IT ON TERRAIN THAT IS MANAGEABLE IS A LARGE PART OF THE POINT. THE IDEA OF MOGUL TERRAIN ONLY BEING ON ? ? UNMANAGED TERRAIN ? IE UNGROOMED BLACK STEEP DIAMONDS- IS LUDICROUS AND AN INSULT AND JUST PLAIN UNFAIR. LET?S ANALYZE THIS FOR A MINUTE- START AT THE BEGINNING: NEW SKIER- NEVER BEEN ON SKIS BEFORE- WHAT DO YOU KILLINGTON SKI SCHOOL INSTRUCTORS DO WITH THEM? I ASSUME THEY TAKE THEM OUT ONTO GENTLE , VERY LOW PITCHED TERRAIN. AND THE BETTER THEY GET THE STEEP RUNS THEY CAN TACKLE.. AND WHY CAN THEY TACKLE PROGRESSIVELY STEEPER RUNS? BECAUSE THE MOUNTAIN PROVIDES THEM. SEEMS QUITE LOGICAL AS PUTTING THEM INTO TERRAIN THAT IS TOO STEEP WOULD VERY LIKELY RESULT IN 1) A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE 2) INJURY 3) THEM NOT COMING BACK. LETS MOVE UP?SMALL CHILD IN A RACE PROGRAM- WHAT DO THEY START OUT RACING GATES ON- DOUBLE BLACKS PITCHED RUNS? NOT LIKELY. SMALLER PITCHED RUNS WITH THEIR RACE GATES AND THEY PROGRESS UP? WHY DO THEY PROGESS UP? BECAUSE THE MOUNTIAN PROVIDES THE TRERRAIN . LETS GO TO THE NEW SCHOOL- SMALL JIB?S MEDIUM JIBS LARGE JIBS.. THEY ARE ALL OVER YOUR MOUNTAIN MR WILSON?YOU DEDICATE ENTIRE ACRES TO THEM.. A GREAT IDEA?YOU DON?T WANT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING GOING OFF THOSE 50 FOOT TABLES FOR SURE. YOU PROVIDE THEM WITH PROGRESSIVE LEARNING FEATURES.. A VERY LOGICAL THING TO DO?YOU MOUNTAIN GIVES MOGUL SKIERS NONE OF THIS SIR?IT HAS BECOME PAINFULLY OBVIOUS TO ALL OF US OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS. MY FRIENDS AND I HAVE SAT AND TALKED TO YOUR FREESTYLE PROGRAM COACHES ( AGAIN WE ARE NOT COACHES AND WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY PROGRAMS WE ARE REGULAR MIDDLE AGED GUYS WHO WANT TO SKI BUMPS ) AND HEARD THEIR COMPLAINTS ALSO.. SO FRANKLY , WE FIGURE IF THE FREESTYLE MOGUL PROGRAM CAN?T EVEN GET ANY TERRAIN TO SKI ON, US REGULAR GUYS HAVE NO CHANCE.. BUT IT IS UNFAIR.. REALLY UNFAIR?GOOD MOGUL SKIERS ( WHETHER ON TEAMS OR REGULAR SHMUCKS LIKE US ) ARE THE BEST, MOST WELL ROUNDED SKIERS ON THE MOUNTAIN IN OUR OPINION, AND IT?S A SHAME THEY CAN?T GET ANY RESPECT. LOOK MR WILSON, WE UNDERSTAND YOU AND YOUR MANAGERS, WITHOUT A DOUBT , HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT JOB WHICH HAS ONLY BECOME MORE DIFFICULT IN RECENT YEARS WITH THE EXPLOSION OF THE NEW SCHOOL , IN TRYING TO SATISFY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS WHO SLIDE AROUND ON THE HILL EACH WINTER. PLEASE DON?T THINK WE DON?T APPRECIATE THAT. WE FULLY REALIZE THE SCOPE AND SIZE OF THE OPERATION YOU GUYS RUN THERE AT KILLINGTON AND HOW , A LOT OF THE TIME, YOU ARE A HOSTAGE TO FORCES THAT YOU CANNOT CONTROL, LIKE MOTHER NATURE. BUT FRANKLY SIR, WE DO NOT FEEL THAT WHAT WE ARE ASKING FOR IS ANYTHING THAT GREAT OR DEMANDING. THE FACT THAT KILLINGTON MOUNTAIN CANNOT DEDICATE 1 BLUE AND 1 BLACK DIAMOND RUN TO A MAN MADE , MAINTAINED WITH GOOD CONSISTENT SNOWMAKING, MOGUL RUN IS FRANKLY , RIDICULOUS. IN OUR OPINION THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR THIS?.WE HAVE HEARD THEM ALL AND NONE ARE VALID?NO RESOURCES ( HOW MUCH GOES IN TO PARKS AND PIPES? ) NOT ENOUGH TERRAIN? ( 200 PLUS TRAILS ) NO DEMAND? ( BALONEY.. IF PEOPLE HAD A BLUE SQUARE PITCHED , MAINTAINED BUMP RUN MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU THINK WOULD SKI IT? PEOPLE DON?T DEMAND BUMPS BECAUSE THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS UNDER THE FALSE IMPRESSION-THAT IS PROPAGATED BY SKI RESORT TERRAIN ( MIS ) MANAGEMENT- THAT MOGUL RUNS ARE ONLY / SHOULD ONLY BE ON DOUBLE BLACK DIAMONDS. AGAIN IT IS UNFAIR, IT IS UNJUST AND IT IS 50% OF THE REASON YOU HAVE LOST US AS CUSTOMERS. I KNOW THIS IS A LONG EMAIL SIR AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME , BUT LET ME TELL YOU A QUICK AND IRONIC SIDE STORY. LAST YEAR THREE OF US CAME UP FOR THE SPRINT FREESTYLE NATIONAL MOGUL CHAMPIONSHIPS THAT YOU HOSTED ( AND THAT I SEE YOU ARE HOSTING AGAIN THIS YEAR ) WE MADE SOME INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THAT WHOLE EXTRAVAGANZA THAT YOU PUT ON THAT WEEKEND?THE FIRST THING THAT STRUCK US WAS HOW MUCH TIME AND ENERGY APPEARED TO BE GOING INTO CONSTRUCTING A MOGUL COURSE ON ?OUTERLIMITS? YOUR FAMOUS ? MOGUL RUN. LEAVING ASIDE THAT FACT THAT OUTER LIMITS, THESE DAYS, IS GENERALLY UNSKIABLE JUNK 80% OF THE TIME BECAUSE IT IS SO STEEP AND ALLOWED TO ?BUMP UP? NATURALLY AS THEY SAY, ALL OF US COULDN?T HELP BUT LAUGH AND SAY, WHY DON?T? THEY JUST HAVE THE NATIONALS ON OUTERLIMITS THE WAY IT NORMALLY IS? THAT IS- UNMANAGED , NATURALLY FORMED BUMPS?? WE BOTH KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT MR WILSON. THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK US WAS THAT IN BETWEEN WATCHING ALL THE GREAT MOGUL SKIERS SKI DOWN THE MAN MADE MOGUL COURSE, WE SKIED AROUND THE HILL. WE SKIED MORE THAN AROUND.. WE SKIED OVER EVERY SINGLE TRAIL ON YOUR HILL? AND THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE SUSTAINED RUN OF MOGULS OR BUMPS FOR US TO SKI ON THE ENTIRE HILL ( OUTSIDE OF A SILLY DEVILS FIDDLE WHICH BY ANYONES REASONABLE DEFINITION WOULD NOT BE CALLED A DECENT BUMP RUN ON THAT DAY) ? THE US MOGUL CHAMPIONSHIP WAS IN TOWN AND THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE DECENT MOGUL LINE TO SKI ON THE HILL? THE HILL THAT LIKES TO ADVERTISE IT?S TRIPLE DIGIT TRAIL COUNT. ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.



2) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO COMPLETELY ABANDON SKIING IN THE MONTH OF MAY- THE FOLLOWING IS A RESPONSE FROM YOU MARKTING DEPARTMENT TO AN EMAIL SENT BY ONE OF US ( JOHN SULLIVAN ) INQUIRING ABOUT SKIING IN MAY FOR THIS UPCOMING SEASON.. WE WERE , AT THE TIME TRYING TO MAKE AN EVALUATION ABOUT BUYING SEASON PASSES.

the following email was sent to my friend john by your info services

-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Killington Info Services" <info@killington.com>
To: <jsul185@comcast.net>
Subject: Killington
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:23:03 +0000

Dear John,



As of right now we are targeting to stay open until early May we won't be going to Memorial Day this year. Unfortunately the skier demand for skiing in mid to late May isn't even close to covering the cost of the snowmaking. While we are no longer operating until the end of May our season pass prices have reduced substantially and are the best deals available. We are targeting to open in early November unless we get a large early snowstorm like last year in which case we will open earlier.



NOW I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A CHART WITH NUMBERS FROM YOUR OWN WEB SITE NOT TOO LONG AGO, BEFORE IT WAS REMOVED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, THAT SHOWS SOME INTERESTING NUMBERS:



SEASON OPEN /CLOSE SKI DAYS TOTAL SNOW SNOW MARCH 1ST ON

86
OCT 1- JUNE 3
224
233
40

87
0CT12- JUNE 3
227
238
55

88
OCT 13-MAY21
211
202
42

89
OCT10-MAY28
208
249
44

90
OCT-27-MAY28
214
206
39

91
OCT 21-JUNE 14
226
198
49

92
OCT 1 JUNE 1
229
300
99

93
OCT 1 JUNE 9
243
279
62

94
OCT 3 JUNE 4
214
182
36

95
OCT 17 JUNE10
224
307
120

96
OCT 4 JUNE 22
233
301
119

97
OCT 1 MAY 25
205
242
65

98
OCT 22 MAY 25
204
186
55

99
OCT 25 MAY 29
205
209
50

00
OCT 29 MAY27
202
316
125

01
NOV 6 JUNE 1
202
192
63

02
OCT 25 MAY 26
204
291
58






I DIDN?T PUT UP THE NUMBERS FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS BECASUE I AM SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THEM (AS I AM SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THE NUMBERS ABOVE BUT I JUST PUT THEM IN FOR EMPHASIS), BUT IN 03 THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY A DECISION MADE TO CUT THE SEASON DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. MR WILSON I UNDERSTAND THAT THE SIMPLE CHART COULD BE MISINTERPRETED AS IT DOES NOT FACTOR IN CONDITIONS LIKE WEATHER THAT COULD CAUSE YEAR TO YEAR DECSIONS TO VARY. BUT THE CHART CLEARLY SHOWS THAT AT ONE POINT ? THE DEMAND ? THAT YOUR STAFFER TALKS ABOUT IN THE EMAIL REPLY TO JOHN, MUST HAVE BEEN THERE TO SOME DEGREE FOR SPRING SKIING?WHEN YOUR STAFFER SAYS ? Unfortunately the skier demand for skiing in mid to late May isn't even close to covering the cost of the snowmaking ? WE JUST HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN. THAT SOUNDS LIKE TOTAL SPIN AND BALONEY. IF THERE HAS BEEN A REDUCTION IN ? DEMAND ? FOR SPRING SKIING- OUR OBSERVATIONS WOULD BE THAT THE REDUCTION COMES FROM 1) THE MOUNTAIN?S CONSCIOUS AND CALCULATED DECISION TO INCREMENTALLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS NOT MAKE ENOUGH SNOW ON SUPERSTAR THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE YEAR TO PROVIDE A DEEP ENOUGH BASE TO HAVE SKIING IN MAY AND THEREFORE SLOWLY REDUCE YEAR BY YEAR ( WHAT IS PERCIEVED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC ) TO BE THE ? QUALITY OF SNOW ? TO THE POINT WHERE ALL BUT THE MOST DEDICATED SICK BIRD SKIERS ARE WILLING TO COME OUT AND SKI ON. IT SEEMS A LITTLE SILLY , WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THE ABOVE CHART , TO THINK THAT PROVIDING SNOWMAKING AND THE COST OF SNOWMAKING, WITH ALL THE ADVANCES TECHNOLOGICALLY THAT SURELY HAVE COME ABOUT SINCE THE MID TO LATE 1980?S , TO BLAME THE COST OF SNOWMAKING FOR THE REASON YOU DO NOT SPIN THE SUPERSTAR LIFT TILL THE END OF MAY ANYMORE. THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM THE INFO SERVICES IS SO PHONY , IT ISN?T EVEN FUNNY? I JUST CAN?T BELIEVE THAT THE COMPANY MAKES IT?S DECISION TO SPIN LIFTS ON SUCH A CONVULTED PREMISE.. IF THAT WERE THE CASE, IT SEEMS LIKELY THAT YOU GUYS SURELY WOULD NOT OPERATE ON TUESDAY WED AND THURS AND PROBABLY WOULD NOT OPERATE BEFORE DEC 20TH AND NOT AFTER APRIL 1? WE ARE NOT HERE TO TELL YOU HOW TO RUN THE HILL OR THE COMPANY SIR , BECAUSE FOR SURE, IT IS NOT OUR PLACE?BUT THE RESPONSE IS INSULTING TO ANYONE WHO CAN SEE WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT KILLINGTON NOT THAT LONG AGO? 2) THE DECISION TO START GROOMING OUT SUPERSTAR IN THE SPRING THE LAST FEW YEARS OBVIOUSLY WOULD HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE AMOUNT OF SKIERS WHO TRADITIONALLY SKIED KILLINGTON IN THE SPRING. SPRING SKIING IS ABOUT MOGULS OR AT LEAST IT SHOULD BE. AND IF ? MOGULS ? WERE FOUND BY THE MARKETING DEPT PEOPLE TO BE ? PASSE ? AND ? NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR ? OR ? TOO TOUGH? FOR THE AVERAGE SKIER ?, MAYBE IF PEOPLE WERE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNIITY TO LEARN TO SKI BUMPS PROPERLY ( IE :LEARNING PROGRESSIVE TERRAIN AS DISCUSSED EARLIER ) THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, THEY WOULD LOOK TO SKI THOSE ? TOO TOUGH ? SUPERSTAR BUMPS IN MAY.



LOOK MR WILSON, NONE OF US HERE ON THE OUTSIDE KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT THE DEAL IS WITH THE NO MAY SKIING POLICY. AND I GUESS IN THE END NO ONE REALLY CARES WHAT WE THINK. A FEW OF MY FRIENDS PUT THE BLAME ON LES OTTEN AND SAY HE JUST MISMANAGED AND SPECULATED AND HEDGED THE HILL AND THE COMPANY TO THE BRINK OF DISASTER AND NOW WE ARE ALL PAYING FOR IT?I TEND TO THINK IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE. I KNOW INSURANCE COSTS FOR YOUR BUSINESS HAVE SPIRALED OUT OF HAND IN RECENT YEARS? BUT WHATEVER IT IS, IT IS NOT GOOD, AT LEAST FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE. YOU HAVE PRETTY MUCH LOST US AND OUR FAMILIES AS CUSTOMERS AS THE HILL JUST CAN?T SEEM TO OFFER US ANYTHING WE WANT- MOGUL TERRAIN AND SPRING SKIING. KILLINGTON USED TO BE ABLE TO OFFER THIS?. YOU GUYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO RUN THE COMPANY ANY WAY YOU SEE FIT AND FRANKLY, ALL OF US PRETTY KNOW THAT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, YOU LOSING US AS CUSTOMERS PROBABLY MEANS VERY LITTLE. BUT IT IS SAD BECAUSE WE ALL LOVE THE PLACE AND ALL LOVED AND LOOKED FORWARD TO BRINGING OUR CHILDREN UP THERE TO SKI DURING THE GREATEST TIME THERE IS TO SKI APRIL AND MAY?AND BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN MID WINTER FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, WE CAN?T EVEN JUSTIFY GOING THERE DURING THE REGULAR SEASON BECAUSE OF THE INEXPLICABLE UTTER LACK OF MOGUL TERRAIN FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO SKI ON. DEDICATING ONE SINGLE BLUE SQUARE RUN AND A BLACK DIAMOND RUN ( OR EVEN JUST ½ THE SIDE OF A RUN IF YOU DON?T WANT TO TAKE UP THE WHOLE RUN ) TO HAVE SNOWCAT BUILT BUMPS THAT ARE TAKEN DOWN AND REBUILT EVERY 2 WEEKS THROUGHOUT THE SEASON JUST DOESN?T SEEM LIKE A LOT TO ASK...AS EVERY OTHER TYPE OF SKIER IS TAKEN CARE OF?..BUT APPARENTLY IT IS?THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES THAT WOULD NEED TO BE DEDICATED, RELATIVE TO WHAT YOU PUT INTO IN EVERY OTHER TYPE OF TERRAIN ON THE HILL, WOULD SEEM TO BE QUITE SMALL. VERY DISAPPOINTING FOR SURE.



THANKS FOR YOUR TIME SIR.



JOE
GIL
JOHN
BRIAN
JOHN

last names removed by me for the fto post:

wilson's reponse:

Joe thanks for taking the time to send me your thoughts and I am sorry that you and your friends have decided not to purchase season passes. I understand your concerns and comments relative to dedicated bump courses and will be discussing that issue with my mountain operations team. I do however think you are being unfair in your criticism of our opening and closing model and our surface conditions. Yes we are closing earlier in May then we have historically and that is a business decision. We haven't changed our opening philosophy and in fact we were open on Halloween last year and plan to open as soon as Mother nature allows this year. While we did make the business decision to close a little earlier in May we also made the decision to reduce the cost of a season pass by almost 50%. Three years ago the cost of an anytime Killington season pass was 1149 and last year that same pass cost 599 so in our opinion it was a very fair decision for our guests. We are focused on giving our guests the best product and value in the industry.

Last year was a very challenging year weather wise with over 15 inches of rain and many days where the temperature dropped from the 40s and 50s to single digits within 12 hour. While that is challenging there isn't anyone in the industry that can recover from a weather event like that any faster or better than Killington, due to the size and investment we have made in our snowmaking and grooming systems. So I do acknowledge that you could have hit a few days where the surface conditions were not stellar but that is not the norm.

Killington is a fabulous mountain with terrain second to none in the East and I believe we deliver a superior product on a regular basis. I am sorry that you will not be joining us this year.


Allen


my response which recieved no response:

ALLEN,

THE SPEED AND TIMELINESS OF YOUR RESPONSE IS MOST IMPRESSIVE.KNOW YOU ARE VERY BUSY, EVEN MORE SO AT THIS TIME.

AS I WAS WRITING YOU, ABOUT HALF WAY THROUGH THE LETTER , I REALIZED ? MAN THIS THING IS PRETTY LONG??I?LL TRY AND KEEP THIS AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE LIKE I SAID, I KNOW YOUR TIME IS AT A PREMIUM NOW.

I FEEL BADLY THAT ANY PART OF WHAT I WROTE YOU COULD BE CONSTRUDE AS BEING CRITICAL IN ANYWAY OF SNOW SURFACES THAT ARE / HAVE BEEEN PRODUCED AT k. NONE OF OUR GROUP CAN STAND TO SKI WITH PRETTY MUCH ANY OF OUR RECREATIONAL SKIER FRIENDS BECAUSE NONE OF US HAVE ANY TOLERANCE FOR THE INEVITEABLE COMPLAINING THAT GOES ON ABOUT SKI SURFACES. PLEASE DON?T TAKE ANY OF WHAT I SAID AS SUCH. ANYONE WHO IS CRITICAL OF SNOW SURFACES IN THE EAST, AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME IN MY OPINION, FRANKLY, HAS NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. AND PERSONALLY, I WOULD DISMISS THEM AS AN IDIOT. EVERY SKI AREA IN THE EAST, I THINK, DOES PRETTY DARN WELL , I THINK, IN DEALING WITH THOSE ? LITTLE CHALLENGES ? LIKE THE 15 INCHES OF RAIN!!!!!!!. I NEVER HAVE AND I NEVER WILL COMPLAIN TO ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME ABOUT SKI SURFACE CONDITIONS.

I THINK THE CONTEXT OF MY COMPLAINT WAS MORE ABOUT THE OVERALL LACK OF DEPTH THAT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ON SUPERSTAR IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. THE LACK OF DEPTH , NOT THE ACTUAL SURFACE CONDITIONS, IS WHAT OUR PROBLEM WAS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, IF THERE IS NO SNOW , THERE IS NO SKIING. FROM OUR VIEW , IT SEEMED TO BE CONCERTED EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE HILL TO REDUCE THE ONCE FAMOUS 25 FEET OF SNOW ON ss , SO THAT COME MAY 1ST, THERE WAS PRETTY MUCH NO CHOICE BUT TO CLOSE. YOUR FRANK ADMISSION THAT THE BOTTOM LINE OF AN EARLY CLOSE NOW APPEARS TO BE THE POLICY OF THE MOUNTAIN IS APPRECIATED. BUT TO BE HONEST, IT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT ANYONE FROM THE HILL HAS BEEN HONEST ENOUGH TO SAY THAT TO US. WE WOULD GET NOTHING BUT A RUN AROUND WHEN WE WOULD ASK?. ONE OF THE REASONS WE WERE UPSET AT THE END OF LAST SEASON WAS THAT , GOING INTO THE SEASON, WITH OUR SUSPICIONS THAT MAY SKIING WAS ON THE OUTS, WE COULD NOT GET ANY CONFIRMATION OF THIS FROM ANYONE WITH ANY AUTHORITY. IN FACT, ON 2 OCCASIONS, WE WERE TOLD THE EXACT OPPOSITE- WE WERE NOT IN ANY WAY LED TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ANY SORT OF GUARANTEE OF SKIING THROUGH MAY, AS THAT WOULD BE JUST RIDICULOUS TO EXPECT. BUT WE WERE TOLD UNEQUIVOCALY THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE?. NECESSARILY.

OBVIOUSLY OUR GROUP IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, TO SAY THE LEAST , THAN WHAT I GUESS WOULD BE DEFINED AS THE TYPICAL SKIER, FROM YOUR MARKETING PERSPECTIVE. ALL OF US FIND IT ASTOUNDING THAT THERE IS A BIG CLAMOR FOR RESORTS TO OPEN IN NOV SO PEOPLE CAN SKI AROUND AND INTO SNOW GUNS BLASTING AND ON FROZEN ICE CHIPS AND WOULD RATHER . APPARENTLY DO THAT THAN SKI IN 50 AND 60 DEGREE WEATHER IN MAY. ABSOLUTELY ASTOUNDING. THE QUOTE FROM THE INFO SERVICES PEOPLE ABOUT THE COST OF SNOWMAKING SOMEHOW MAKING MAY SKIING A RISK , SEEMED A LITTLE TO DISENGENOUS TO US . IT WOULD SEEM TO US THE GREATER FINANCIAL RISK LIES WITH TRYING TO GET THE PLACE OPEN IN OCT AND NOV WHERE IT WOULD SEEM, AS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, THE LIKELYHOOD OF BEING WIPED OUT BY RAIN AND HAVING TO CLOSE THE PLACE, WOULD BE GREATER. NONE OF US HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH YOU GUYS HOLDING OUT AND WAITING UNTIL YOU HAVE TOP TO BOTTOM. THAT IS A SMART BUSINESS DECISION. WE THINK YOU SHOULD OPEN EVEN LATER, IF IT WOULD GIVE A SHOT TO STAYING OPEN LONGER!!!!!!!! IT IS JUST KIND OF TOUGH TO TAKE TO HAVE EXPERIENCE THE JOYS OF SKIING IN MAY ON ss ON SIGNIFICANT BASES AND SEEING IT WIPED OUT BEFORE OUR EYES PARTLY IN PART BECAUSE THE PUBIC IS JUST PLAIN STUPID. AND LOOKING AT THAT CHART, I GET SICK TO MY STOMACH THINKING ABOUT HOW THERE ONCE WAS A TIME THAT ONE COULD BE SKIING IN THE SECOND WEEK OF JUNE AT k

YOUR POINT ABOUT THE PRICE CUT IN PASSES IS CERTAINLY VALID. BUT TOO BE HONEST WITH YOU, WHEN THIS CHEAP SEASON PASS STUFF STARTED OUT ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO INDUSTRY WIDE, WE ALL KNEW IT WAS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD THING FOR US FROM OUR SELFISH PERSPECTIVE?AGAIN ALLEN, YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE NORMAL CUSTOMERS WITH US , WE KNOW. OBVIOUSLY YOUR MARKETING STUDIES HAVE SHOWN WHAT YOU ARE DOING WORKS. BUT YOU SHOULD KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WOULD GLADLY PAY THE EXTRA 2 OR 3 OR $400 OR WHATEVER TO GET THAT SEASON PASS THAT WOULD GET US LIFTS SPINNING IN MAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. IS IT JUST NOT COST FEASABLE IN ANY WAY TO KEEP THE ALL FOR ONE PROGRAM LIKE IT IS AND THEN OFFER , AFTER DOING SOME STUDIES FOR A START DATE, SOME SORT OF POST APRIL 1 PASS?. OR COULD YOU OFFER AN ALL FOR ONE WITH AN OPTION FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MORE THAT GETS YOU ON SPINNING LIFTS AFTER SAY THE BEAR MOUNTAIN MOGUL CHALLENGE WEEKEND.? IS THERE A CHANCE THIS COULD BRING IN ENOUGH MONEY TO JUSTIFY SPINNING WELL INTO MAY?. I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WOULD PAY IT, ALLEN. WHAT I DON?T KNOW IS IF THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE. YOU GUYS USED TO OFFER THE SPRING PASS ( WHICH WE ALL THOUGHT WAS WAY TOO UNDERPRICED AT $199 FOR WHAT IT GOT ONE, TO BE HONEST ) . THE FACT YOU DON?T OFFER IT PROBABLY INDICATES YOU?VE DONE THE STUDIES AND CAN?T JUSTIFY IT. I THINK WE ALL JUST WANTED YOU TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE HEARTBROKEN PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO REALLY LONG FOR THE DAYS OF SKIING IN MAY WHEN IT IS NOT MINUS 2 OUT. WE JUST HOPE ALL THE AVENUES HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT OUTSIDE THE BOX AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.

THE ISSUE OF MOGULS, WE FEEL , IN SOME BIZARRE WAY, MAY BE RELATED. MOST PEOPLE DON?T SKI BUMPS ALLEN. YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW.. WE MAINTAIN THERE IS A REASON. THEY ARE UNAVAILABLE TO MOST. THEY ARE LOOKED AT AS NOT SERIOUS SKIING BY THE ALMIGHTY ALPINE COMMUNITY AND THEY ARE HARD? TO LEARN?BUT ONCE LEARNED, PEOPLE BECOME ADDICTED TO THEM. I THINK YOU WOULD SEE MORE DEMAND FOR MAY SKIING IF THERE WERE MORE TERRAIN AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO TEST THE WATERS MID WINTER WITH SKIING BUMPS THAT WERE PART OF A PROGRESSIVE LEARNING CURVE. MOGULS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY ABANDONED BY THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE. AND THAT IS A SHAME.

TAKE CARE AND HAVE A GOOD WINTER OVER THERE, ALLEN


take it for what it is. :? :? :? :? :roll: have a good winter boys :p
 
Joe,

I want to thank greatly to share this information with us. Although I only started reading part of it (I will read it all later), I wanted to be the first one to respond.

Thank you for taking the time to write to Mr. Wilson and also bothering posting it here. All of us fanatics, especially of us who are old enough to remember the "good old days" at Killington, have noticed the change in philosophy by Kmart management especially over the last 5 years. I'm happy that you did something about by writing to K. Even if they don't go anything about it, they probably know that for every person that write, an more important amount of people fell the same way but simply didn't that the time.

My experience at K was just as a transcient, but a regular in May and June despite being over 190 miles away in Montreal and 315 from Ottawa, and Kmart is the 3rd ski area I've ski the most in the last 25 years

I wish you a great year Joe and hope you find nice bumps wherever you ski. I wouldn't mind reading about it here on FTO once in a while, but that's your choice.
 
Joe, you have been awfully quiet.

Well, I missed your posts and enjoyed your exchange with the mighty K...we all have to face it I guess...K is just another big ski resort now. The only thing special about it, the early opening and late closing, is gone.

And don't be a stranger here...everyone gets a little testy at the end of the season when some of those posts were made. But a new ski life is dawning, so let's all be thankful and get along; there is room here for everyone's opinions.
 
I too applaud joegm for posting this correspondence and hope to see more posts (which I will attack as much as anyone if I think they are off-base!).

As one who does not often seek out the moguls by choice, I am nonetheless fully supportive to his request. Freestyle moguls are a popular Olympic sport and there are some freestyle training programs as joegm mentioned. These programs are unquestionably the best people to put pressure on ski areas to maintain courses.

I'll display my ignorance here, but in the West do freestyle programs require maintained and prepared courses for typical training programs as well as for higher level events? They would have to once the programs reaches the level of having jumps in the courses. In more basic courses is bump training done in natural moguls of areas that preserve snow well?

With regard to the late season issue I speak with more confidence as I do so much of it and have seen it in the East as well as West.

1) A good follow-up question on the demand issue would be: Did Killington May visits decline in 1999-2002 vs. prior periods or only starting in 2003 when Killington's stockpile snowmaking on Superstar declined?

2) I find it hard to believe that with the huge Boston/NYC population bases that Killington lost money for those 17 years of May skiing. It is possible that formerly those skiers were paying by the day and now most of them have $599 season passes. The solution here, as joegm figured out, is to charge separately for the spring season, not unreasonable to defray some of the cost of the stockpile snowmaking.

3) Spring skiing on groomed trails in the East is often quite unpleasant IMHO. With isothermic snow and relatively flat pitch your skis "stick" in the snow and gravity is not strong enough to overcome it. Skier compacted moguls are the most enjoyable type of skiing in those conditions. So grooming Superstar in the spring seems counterproductive to me and could attract less business than before.

4) I'll once again beat the dead horse of the K-1 as transport lift. Glades/Canyon will preserve better and require less snowmaking expense to achieve any given close date than Superstar. Set Memorial Day as the close date objective; that's good enough in the East to restore the late season cachet. An additional bonus to this strategy is that these should be the same trails used for the early season. Some of the snow you blow in October/November is now serving double duty by extending the other end of the season. Use this area targeting last weekend in October (again restoring marketing cachet) and don't bother with the K-1 base/Lower Bunny Buster area that gets rained or thawed out so often until close to Thanksgiving. A smart management should consider this strategy to maximize the ski season and marketing impact they get out of their expensive snowmaking investment.
 
"I am not an instructor. I am not an author. But in my years of skiing I have noticed something. The folks that ski in the woods are hands down the best skiers on the hill. Any skier that can rip a tight line in the woods can also rip mouguls but mougul skiers cant always rip the trees."

I like Joe's bump skiing enthusiasm. That was free skiing and new school in 70s/80s. The sentiment that Woods are Everything and a 'Too-Cool-For-Anything-Else' is increadingly common back East. More natural and organic. Even more so when I grew up in the Northeast in the 80s/90s. It's now almost a stereotype. I kind of ignore it. Outside of the Vermont Killington-to-Jay 250"+ snowbelt, tree skiing often sucks IMHO for the majority of the season.

I took up telemarking instead of becoming a woods fanatic in New England. On teles, I found myself in the bumps more often than the trees - anyone can tree ski on tele's, bumps with a free-heel - that's impressive IMHO.

Too bad about Killington and its bumps. Donna Weinbrecht would not have gotten gold if training there today.

) I'll once again beat the dead horse of the K-1 as transport lift. Glades/Canyon will preserve better and require less snowmaking expense to achieve any given close date than Superstar. Set Memorial Day as the close date objective; that's good enough in the East to restore the late season cachet. An additional bonus to this strategy is that these should be the same trails used for the early season. Some of the snow you blow in October/November is now serving double duty by extending the other end of the season

Killington did employ this strategy.
In the 80s, K would blow snow on Upper Cascade in early October. While Downdraft (one over from Cascade) was the late season trail (to build snow depths that would be too high for the Cascade liftline). The Killington double had a mid-station that was load only - and primarily used for early/late season.

After the Superstar Quad in the late 80s, Killington transitioned to Superstar as the late season trail. I think the logic was Superstar top-to-bottom is a better run than just Downdraft, no downloading and K had the snowmaking firepower to accomplish this.

In the 90s, Killington started to occasionally make snow on the Rime trail under the Glades lift as often as opening Upper Cascade. With the K1 Gondola in the later 90s, it was Rime if anything for October. I remember being transported by tractor one time from Killington Peak to the Glades area. More often than not, they would close again due to rain and the major November push would be Superstar/Snowdon.

I think the original strategy worked 80s strategy worked best.

2) I find it hard to believe that with the huge Boston/NYC population bases that Killington lost money for those 17 years of May skiing.

Les Otten made some poor decisions in the 90s by purchasing too many mountains at high prices (Mt Snow, Killington, Pico, Waterville, Cranmore...as well as Steamboat, Heavenly), investing in a lot of infrastructure (Canyons), floating junk bonds to pay for all this (and a smaller IPO) and having a real estate plan that failed (in the greatest real eastate boom in the US). Now controlled by private equity group, ASC will just cut costs till increase cash flow, so I wouldn't hold my breath for them making decisions based on marketing. Instead finance will trump marketing for the immediate future.
 
The Killington double had a mid-station that was load only - and primarily used for early/late season.
i will never forget the Holloween day i spend skiing the bumps on Upper Cascade. The year was 1980 :shock:
 
If you really wanted to complain to somebody...

http://www.oakhillcapital.com/

I have a business school classmate who models there - economically, not on a runway. He is about as athletic as a sack of potatoes, but a jockey on Excel.

I think ASC has been a poor investment for them. They reallly do not make money until some transaction (which does not look happening soon for ASC). I asked him one time about it -- but no good answer due to cockiness, disclosure, paranoia and insecurity.

Eventually, ASC will be sold and better decisions will be made.

Vail went into a bad period in late 80s/early 90s (no lifts, few improvements) when the Apollo Group (another PE firm) controlled them. Things improved for skier experience after the IPO and Blackstone made their money.
 
Joe,
Thanks for sharing your correspondance with K here, I have found it very interesting (I admit, I haven't read all of it yet.).
Keep posting.
 
In the 1980's it is true that you could upload from the K-1 midstation. That was my first October ski day in 1988. But the Canyon chair did not exist then. For late season I think Canyon's trails would have as much vertical as Superstar, and at higher altitude with better exposure.

Chris' comments on eastern tree skiing jibe exactly with what admin told me a few years ago. Aside from the Northern Vermont snowbelt that averages 250+ and has a "brush line" there really isn't that much tree skiing in the East. The "Woods are Everything" sentiment is well represented among FTO's eastern contingent. The vast majority of eastern skiers have done little or none of it, and that's why I observe a learning curve on the off-piste and ungroomed for most of them when they go West.

I have no doubt that Killington's strategy has been dictated by the river of red ink flowing from many of ASC's other projects. It reminds me a bit of the heat Tribune Company is taking for penny-pinching at the L.A. Times (my weekly snow reports that I wrote for them in 2003-04 and 2004-05 are one of many items that got the axe about a year ago). There is a push to restore local ownership of the L.A. Times and run it as a stand alone company more in the manner that Otis Chandler did from 1960-1980. Killington would probably also be well served being operated independently.

The Vail history with George Gillette is somewhat ironic. Gillette built a company of mostly TV stations leveraged by 1980's junk bonds. He bought Vail as sort of an indulgence and by installing 4 high speed quads in 1985 was the first ski area owner to use that method to clean up severe liftline problems. When the bubble burst on the TV stations Vail was by far Gillette's most valuable asset left. But of course he had to sell out to Apollo to pay off some of the debt. Apollo is the same company that took California Insurance Commissioner John Garamendi (yesterday elected Lt. Governor, some people never learn) to the cleaners in the liquidation of Executive Life in 1991.

Back to skiing: Teles in the bumps looks way tougher than anything I can contemplate doing. In the never ending debate whether race/bump/tree skiers rule, I think most of us define an expert as someone "who can ski everything well." So the discipline whose skills translate best to most other forms of skiing is best qualified to "rule" IMHO. The best case I've seen for bumps is the old Powder article where Nelson Carmichael seemed to translate his skills to the broadest range among a group of all-star skiers assembled at Whistler. By personal observation Patrick's performance in the West makes a good case for race. I've also heard from several people that the balance skills required for tele will help fine-tune your alpine skills.
 
Tony Crocker":3tlo1bn4 said:
For late season I think Canyon's trails would have as much vertical as Superstar, and at higher altitude with better exposure.

Definately.

Tony Crocker":3tlo1bn4 said:
Aside from the Northern Vermont snowbelt (...) there really isn't that much tree skiing in the East. The "Woods are Everything" sentiment is well represented among FTO's eastern contingent. The vast majority of eastern skiers have done little or none of it, and that's why I observe a learning curve on the off-piste and ungroomed for most of them when they go West.

Tree skiing in the East, yes and no. I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean official tree runs or skiing the trees.

If you're talking about official tree runs (ie. glades) then yes there are a few. You have to remember that skiing in the East started over 60 years ago and the runs were twisting narrow trails. Europeans instructors and entrepreneurs in the East wanted to clearcut everything to make the skiing similar to the Alps (Hannes Schneider at Cranmore). There were a few glades, but with the exception of a few places (Sutton being one of them), glades only started popping up in the 80s.

If you're talking the "woods". This practice was forbitten at most areas until very recently. An extreme minority practice this type of skiing.

I think the vast majority of skiers everywhere (East, West and Alps) stay mostly on the groomed stuff, however people that read and write on ski forums aren't necessarly representative of the skiing masses.

Tony Crocker":3tlo1bn4 said:
Killington would probably also be well served being operated independently.

Yes, I agree. I haven't been following closely what Sugarbush has been doing, but they seem on the right track now that they are locally owned.

Mind you that even if the strategy and lift set-ups the good old days, K would probably be able to open in October for a few days, but temps are warmer in the last few seasons. Heck, first snow might stays on the ground in Ottawa was November 5th, later last year. This event would always be prior to Halloween in the 70s.

Tony Crocker":3tlo1bn4 said:
The Vail history with George Gillette is somewhat ironic.

It's ironic that you mentioned George Gillette. Are you aware what he is now? :wink:
 
Tony, What Patrick writes is correct. Official glade skiing started in Sutton as the family owned Sutton resisted the 70?s trend to clear cut trails in order to draw in more customers. However this is not to say tree skiing wasn?t available. As kids we were skiing in the woods all day long on small Laurentian hills (Ex. Mont Christie {closed}, Alta) not knowing that we were way ahead of the trend. The traditional trails were also a lot narrower and were not graded with bulldozers. A typical day as a kid was riding the T bar up then hiking across the Laurentian ridges then skiing down through the woods, ending up with a hike back to the lift. Today, Alta still offers our kids the same experience. So the big push for eastern areas to market glade (woods) skiing is nothing new. They are just going back to what skiing in the east was traditionally all about.
 
News Item today:
The upper slopes on Aspen Mountain will open with approximately 150 acres of terrain served by the Ajax Express Quad and the Gent?s Ridge quad chairs. All skiers and riders will upload and download on the Silver Queen Gondola to access open terrain.
Attention Killington: this is not rocket science.
 
Tony Crocker":3c001m6e said:
Attention Killington: this is not rocket science.

Killington is looking to open for Thanksgiving which would make it the latest opening at least 40 years, mind you this fall (and the last) has been pretty warm.

This is after last year's May 1st closing, earliest in 30 years, and the lowest amount of ski days since the sixties.

Mind you this isn't only a Killington story. Last year no Quebec ski area made it to May last year (first time from memory for myself - over 25 year) and probably the latest opening of the season in a very long time. When you have Ste-Anne that actually moves it opening day by a week, now that isn't good news (Ste-Anne has always work on fixed season, regardless of the amount of snow). This place would have the potential to have the longest season if they wanted to.

So Killington was shortsighted with their new K1 gondola and moving Spring operations to Superstar in the late 80s (I've said this many times in the archives of FTO). The amount of energy (cost and snowmaking) it takes to guarentee late skiing on that trail versus the top of Cascades isn't efficient.

More on the incredible sinking seasons later. :?
 
Tony Crocker":205tcbzy said:
News Item today:
The upper slopes on Aspen Mountain will open with approximately 150 acres of terrain served by the Ajax Express Quad and the Gent?s Ridge quad chairs. All skiers and riders will upload and download on the Silver Queen Gondola to access open terrain.
Attention Killington: this is not rocket science.

Killington does have a topological problem at the summit -- transporting skiers from Gondola to the top of Glades/Canyon chairs is difficult.

Lift extension is not simple because it's steep in that area. Also, Catwalk is one of the old-style trails still intact.

Maybe they could extend the Canyon lift since it is already an expert chair. Clades is a little too blue.

Map is the Old-School K topographical.....but the K1 unloads in the same spot. Glades/Canyon unload in nearly the same area.
 

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ChrisC":298dm1rs said:
Killington does have a topological problem at the summit -- transporting skiers from Gondola to the top of Glades/Canyon chairs is difficult.

They were going it right before... If they would have kept a lift with a midstation in which they would concentrate at the earliest time snowmaking on the top of Cascades (like the good old days).

We've had this discussion many times. A few bad moves were also made in my opinion.

1) Moving the Spring skiing to Superstar in the late 80s.

2) Getting ride of the K Peak double (with midstation) for the K1 gondola somewhere in the late 90s(?).

Getting skiing early was easier off the K Peak than only required one lift running and not all the cost and energy required to built the Superstar glacier.

By changing the way they do things now, K has lost their terrain advantage and there's season is still amount the longest, but not by many days if at all.

And yes, there's the financial aspects...but that isn't all of it, this quote points but mother nature is making things much worse nowadays.
 
I was just speculating on how to resolve/bring back K's season -- from an infrastructure viewpoint, can't do much about Mother Nature.

They should simply rebuild the K1 with a new mid station - probably the easisest and least costly.
 
Killington's website currently boasts that they are making snow on 6 upper mountain trails with some pics that look decent (I know it's easy to be deceptive about that). The inability to cover the base area is what's holding them up.

I disagree on the midstation. That makes Upper Cascade the only trail option without upper lifts. Glades will be the easiest to open early because it's not steep. It would almost certainly have been skiable continuously since the time of the late October snow. Canyon will be better than Cascade for late season because it has more vertical (as much as Superstar) and more than one trail. Is some grading/reconfiguration needed to make a K-1 to Glades connection? Probably but we've all seen ski areas do much more.

The cost of running an extra lift for transport is not a big deal. Mt. Baldy has to do it all the time, and they have far fewer resources than Killington.
 
Is some grading/reconfiguration needed to make a K-1 to Glades connection? Probably but we've all seen ski areas do much more.

That was my point in posting the old topo trail map.

The Glades lift is about 200ft lower than the K1 on a pretty steep slope. You would need some sort of stair system or tunnel for skier passage. Vermont is very restrictive about building - especially at elevations above 4000 ft. (I think there might be an ordinance banning structures above 4000 - with the old ski lodges grand-fathered in).

I did ski one time in October in the late 90s after K1 installation. Killington used a tractor with a cart hooked - think "hayride for skiers" - to transport people on the catwalks/roads to the Glades/Rime trail. Capacity problems resulted at the end of the day.
 
Tony Crocker":3oqbv9k3 said:
Canyon will be better than Cascade for late season because it has more vertical (as much as Superstar) and more than one trail.

Alas, its base is barely above the Killington base lodge. And ChrisC has effectively described the logistic difficulties of a Glades-to-K-Peak connection.
 
Tony Crocker":25d74740 said:
I disagree on the midstation. That makes Upper Cascade the only trail option without upper lifts. Glades will be the easiest to open early because it's not steep. It would almost certainly have been skiable continuously since the time of the late October snow. Canyon will be better than Cascade for late season because it has more vertical (as much as Superstar) and more than one trail. Is some grading/reconfiguration needed to make a K-1 to Glades connection? Probably but we've all seen ski areas do much more.

The way that it was done in the good old days was that they would start opening from the mid to the Peak on Cascades then after a few days they would open the Glades area also, so people could ski Cascades and the Glades runs then ski back from the summit of the Glades chair to the midstation of the KPEak double to the Peak then download from the top.

The top headwall on Cascades/Downdraft wouldn't be open, the snowmaking would go around the old Gondola Terminal building on Goat Path.

Based on the old K topo skimap. Elevation at the mid was 3450ft while the based on the Glades triple is at 3350ft.

As for the Canyon as a replacement for Superstar, Marc is right, there might be 200ft difference between the based on the Canyon and Superstar. One of the issue during the Spring time was keeping the snow on the flat at the bottom of Cascades to make it all the way down to the KBL.

Tony Crocker":25d74740 said:
The cost of running an extra lift for transport is not a big deal. Mt. Baldy has to do it all the time, and they have far fewer resources than Killington.

What is the market like for Baldy? Maybe they have few ressources, but the potential skiers close by is greater, no? Yes, Kmart is in the middle of huge metropolitran areas, but it's not that close to any of them.
 
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