joegm
New member
as a few of the more reasonable people on this site that i have pm's recently know, i am pretty much done posting . there are a few reasons but the below listed ridiculous quote from one of the regulars on the site certainly illustrates why i am throwing in the towel
"I am not an instructor. I am not an author. But in my years of skiing I have noticed something. The folks that ski in the woods are hands down the best skiers on the hill. Any skier that can rip a tight line in the woods can also rip mouguls but mougul skiers cant always rip the trees."
i believe this was from nhpowderhound..... whatever
i figured though some may be interested in a recent correspondence that i had via email with allen wilson , the president of Killington. my email was prompted by my friend john emialing the general info line and receiving a totally ridiculous spin doctored response...the following is the original email i sent to wilson, his response and my response to his response...he didn't respond to the second email the main issues are 2 fold.. 1) killingtons lack of mogul runs and 2) killington's abandonment of spring skiing...
HELLO MR WILSON
MY NAME IS ( deleted ) . I, ALONG WITH MY FOUR FRIENDS , ( deleted) ARE WRITING TO YOU TODAY JUST TO EXPRESS SOME OF OUR FEELINGS TO YOU ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT YOUR MOUNTAIN APPEARS TO BE TAKING WITH A NUMBER OF OPERATIONAL ISSUES.
ALL 4 OF US HAVE BEEN SEASON PASSHOLDERS FOR KILLINGTON MOUNTAIN AND THE A.S.C IN THE PAST. ALL OF US HAVE ENJOYED SKIING KILLINGTON FOR SEVERAL YEARS . TO GIVE YOU JUST SOME BRIEF DEMOGRAPHIC?S SO YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE HEARING FROM, WE ARE ALL IN OUR 30?S AND 40?S. ALL OF US HAVE FAMILIES WITH SMALL CHILDREN. NOT ALL OF THE CHILDREN SKI YET BUT SOME OF THEM DO. ALL OF US ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE JOBS THAT ALLOW US TO SKI MID WEEK AND AVOID SKIING ON THE WEEKENDS.
IT IS WITH GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT AND DISPLEASURE THAT ALL OF US HAVE DECIDED NOT TO RENEW -REPURCHASE SEASON PASSES FROM YOUR MOUNTAIN AND THE A.S.C THIS YEAR BASED ON WHAT WE FEEL IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LACK OF RESPECT BEING SHOWN TO US ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS. LET ME LIST THE ISSUES WE HAVE AND THEN I WILL ADDRESS EACH ONE SPECIFICALLY.
1) YOUR MOUNTAIN?S TOTAL LACK OF INVESTMENT IN ANY SORT OF CONSTRUCTED AND REGULARLY MAINTAINED MOGUL RUNS ON BOTH BLUE AND BLACK TRAILS
2) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO COMPLETELY ABANDON SKIING DURING THE MONTH OF MAY
3) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO FORCE AN EXTREMELY PREMATURE DEADLINE FOR PURCHASING A SEASON PASS. ( IF ITEMS 1 AND 2 WERE NOT AN ISSUE, THIS #3 WOULD NTO BE SO MUCH AN ISSUE- I?LL EXPLAIN LATER)
ISSUE: LACK OF CONSISTENT MOGUL TERRAIN: IT IS OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WHO HAS PAID ATTENTION TO THE INDUSTRY AND HOW IT HAS BEEN EVOLVING OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS , THAT THE SO CALLED ? NEW SCHOOL? MOVEMENT OF SKIING HAS BEEN COMING TO THE FOREFRONT AND HAS ENERGIZED THE INDUSTRY. I AM SURE YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH WHAT WOULD BRAODLY DEFINE THE ? NEW SCHOOL ? MOVEMENT MR WILSON . THE PROLIFERATION OF HALF PIPES- JUMPS- RAILS ? AND WHAT THE KIDS CALL ?JIBS?, HAS OBVIOUSLY DEMANDED AND HAS RECEIVED AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION- AND CAN WE SAY RESOURCES FROM THE INDUSTRY IN GENERAL. ANY INDEPENDENT , UNBIASED OBSERVER WOULD SAY THAT ALLOCATING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES TO THIS ? NEW SCHOOL MOVEMENT ? COULD ONLY BE VIEWED AS A SMART BUSINESS DECISION FROM YOUR HILL?S MANAGEMENT PERSPECTIVE. ALL OF US AGREE ON THAT AND IN FACT, MY FRIENDS AND I FULLY SUPPORT IT. NONE OF US, FRANKLY, ARE ABLE TO EVEN CLOSELY COME CLOSE TO UTILIZING OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL OF THIS NEW TERRAIN THAT HAS BEEN INVESTED IN. WE ALL ( THE 4 OF US ) , HOWEVER , FULLY SUPPORT THIS AS IT CLEARLY HAS PLAYED A LARGE PART IN PRODUCING REVENUES FOR YOUR COMPANY. AND FRANKLY , IT IS A LOT OF FUN TO WATCH AS SOME ( AND I EMPHASIZE THE WORD ?SOME? HERE- FOR A LATER POINT ) OF THE PEOPLE WHO DO IN FACT MAKE USE OF THE TERRAIN SKI AT A VERY HIGH SKILL LEVEL. WHAT ANGERS MYSELF AND MY FRIENDS, AND YES MR WILSON, IT IS ANGER, IS THE TOTALLY UNFAIR LACK OF ATTENTION AND RESOURCES THAT IS GIVEN TO ANOTHER ASPECT OF SKIING THAT FRANKLY IS , IN OUR OPINION , THE MOST EXCITING DISIPLINE OF THE SPORT. MOGUL SKIING. OBVIOUSLY THE SPORT OF SKIING IS DEFINED BY MANY DISCIPLINES AND MANY TYPES OF SKIERS COME TO YOUR MOUNTAIN TO TAKE PART IN THE GREAT SPORT OF SKIING. YOUR MOUNTAIN DOES A GREAT JOB SERVICING / CATERING TO PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE TYPE OF SKIER/RIDER THERE IS OUT THERE . RECREATIONAL SKIERS LOOKING FOR CARPET AND CRUISER RUNS ON BLUES- HIGHER LEVEL RECREATIONAL WEEKEND WARRIOR SKIERS LOOKING FOR STEEP CRUISERS WHERE THEY CAN POINT EM DOWN AND SKI 1000MPH AND THINK THEY ARE BODE MILLER- ALPINE RACERS LOOKING FOR GATES AND FLAT STEEP GROOMED OUT COURSES- NEW SCHOOLERS AND JIBBERS LOOKING FOR HALFPIPES- AND RAILS AND 50 FOOT TABLE TOP JUMPS- TREE SKIING FOR OFF PISTE TREE SKIERS. AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN ALL OF THESE THINGS SIR? EXCEPT FOR ONE, UNFORTUNATELY?.. MOGUL SKIING. MR WILSON, IT IS ABSOLUTELY STUNNING TO US THAT A MOUNTAIN THE SIZE OF KILLINGTON, DOES NOT/ REFUSES TO, PUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF RESOURCES INTO HAVING AVAILABLE A CONSISTENTLY MAN MADE AND MAINTAINED BLUE SQUARE AND BLACK DIAMOND MOGUL RUN OF SIGNIFICANT LENGTH. WITH ALL DO RESPECT SIR, THE FACT THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERY OTHER TYPE OF SKIER THAT EXISTS IS TAKEN CARE OF AND HAS STEADY CONSISTENT RELIABLE TERRAIN TO SKI ON EXCEPT RECREATIONAL MOGUL SKIERS IS VERY DISTURBING TO US. I UNDERLINE THE WORD RECREATIONAL SIR, BECAUSE MY FRIENDS AND I ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY SORT OF FREESTYLE TEAM AND WE ARE NOT 15 YEARS OLD. WE ARE JUST REGULAR GUYS WHO LIKE TO SKI MORE THAN GROOMED OUT , FLAT CARPET BUT SINCE WE HAVE TO GO TO WORK AND PAY THE BILLS, WE CANNOT FULLY BECOME PART OF THE ? NEW SCHOOL? CLUB AND HURL OURSELVES OFF 50 FOOT JUMPS OR 18 FOOT HALFPIPE WALLS. WHAT WE CAN DO/ WHAT WE LIKE TO DO/ WHAT WE HAVE WORKED EXTREMELY HARD AT TRYING TO DO IS MOGUL SKI?. MOGUL SKIING , AT ONE TIME, WAS NEW SCHOOL SKIING MR WILSON. THERE WOULD BE NO NEW SCHOOL / HALFPIPE SKIING WITHOUT MOGUL SKIING. AND AGAIN, I CAN?T EMPHASIZE THIS ENGOUGH, NONE OF US HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PUTTING RESOURCES INTO THIS ASPECT , OR ANY OTHER ASPECT OF THE SPORT THAT YOU AND YOUR MARKETING AND ON HILL MANAGERS SEE FIT. BUT IT IS AN ABSOLUTE OUTRAGE THAT YOU AND YOUR ON HILL MANAGERS SEEM TO FEEL THAT YOU CANNOT DEDICATE ANY SIGNIFICANT TIME / ENERGY AND RESOURCES TO HAVING AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC MANAGED MOGUL TERRAIN?.WE EMPHASIZE THE WORD MANAGED BECAUSE WE HAVE FOUND THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS HYPOCRITICAL SCHOOL OF THOUGHT IN THE SKIING INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, THAT MOGUL SKIING ( IF IT IS ALLOWED TO EXIST ALL IS ALL ABOUT JUST LETTING A ( AND ONLY A L ) SUPERSTEEP BLACK DIAMOND TRAIL GO UNGROOMED AND THE RESULTING PILES AND MOUNDS OF SNOW TURN INTO BUMPS. AND HERE IN THE EAST, THAT TERRAIN AND IT ?S RESULTING ICE PILES TYPICALLY IS , FRANKLY, UNSKIABLE JUNK 90% OF THE TIME. I USE THE WORD HYPOCIRITICAL BECAUSE FRANKLY IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE ANY OF YOUR ALPINE RACE TEAMS ( BE THEY RECREATIONAL OR FROM THE KMS SCHOOL ) BEING FORCED TO SKI THE TERRAIN THEY LIKE TO SKI THAT SAY, GOES UNGROOMED, OR UNMAINTAINED FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME. HOW MUCH MONEY DOES A HALF PIPE CUTTER COST TO PURCHASE AND MAINTAIN? I DON?T KNOW FOR SURE BUT I HAVE A FEELING IT IS NOT AVAILABLE AT THE LOCAL SEARS STORE FOR $999 SITTING BESIDE THE LAWN MOWERS ON SALE. I?M PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE A LITTLE HERE BECAUSE I AM COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN TO NOT EVEN PROVIDE IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY- THE MOGUL TERRAIN ITSELF. THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE , BUT MAINTAINING IT AND PROVIDING IT ON TERRAIN THAT IS MANAGEABLE IS A LARGE PART OF THE POINT. THE IDEA OF MOGUL TERRAIN ONLY BEING ON ? ? UNMANAGED TERRAIN ? IE UNGROOMED BLACK STEEP DIAMONDS- IS LUDICROUS AND AN INSULT AND JUST PLAIN UNFAIR. LET?S ANALYZE THIS FOR A MINUTE- START AT THE BEGINNING: NEW SKIER- NEVER BEEN ON SKIS BEFORE- WHAT DO YOU KILLINGTON SKI SCHOOL INSTRUCTORS DO WITH THEM? I ASSUME THEY TAKE THEM OUT ONTO GENTLE , VERY LOW PITCHED TERRAIN. AND THE BETTER THEY GET THE STEEP RUNS THEY CAN TACKLE.. AND WHY CAN THEY TACKLE PROGRESSIVELY STEEPER RUNS? BECAUSE THE MOUNTAIN PROVIDES THEM. SEEMS QUITE LOGICAL AS PUTTING THEM INTO TERRAIN THAT IS TOO STEEP WOULD VERY LIKELY RESULT IN 1) A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE 2) INJURY 3) THEM NOT COMING BACK. LETS MOVE UP?SMALL CHILD IN A RACE PROGRAM- WHAT DO THEY START OUT RACING GATES ON- DOUBLE BLACKS PITCHED RUNS? NOT LIKELY. SMALLER PITCHED RUNS WITH THEIR RACE GATES AND THEY PROGRESS UP? WHY DO THEY PROGESS UP? BECAUSE THE MOUNTIAN PROVIDES THE TRERRAIN . LETS GO TO THE NEW SCHOOL- SMALL JIB?S MEDIUM JIBS LARGE JIBS.. THEY ARE ALL OVER YOUR MOUNTAIN MR WILSON?YOU DEDICATE ENTIRE ACRES TO THEM.. A GREAT IDEA?YOU DON?T WANT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING GOING OFF THOSE 50 FOOT TABLES FOR SURE. YOU PROVIDE THEM WITH PROGRESSIVE LEARNING FEATURES.. A VERY LOGICAL THING TO DO?YOU MOUNTAIN GIVES MOGUL SKIERS NONE OF THIS SIR?IT HAS BECOME PAINFULLY OBVIOUS TO ALL OF US OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS. MY FRIENDS AND I HAVE SAT AND TALKED TO YOUR FREESTYLE PROGRAM COACHES ( AGAIN WE ARE NOT COACHES AND WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY PROGRAMS WE ARE REGULAR MIDDLE AGED GUYS WHO WANT TO SKI BUMPS ) AND HEARD THEIR COMPLAINTS ALSO.. SO FRANKLY , WE FIGURE IF THE FREESTYLE MOGUL PROGRAM CAN?T EVEN GET ANY TERRAIN TO SKI ON, US REGULAR GUYS HAVE NO CHANCE.. BUT IT IS UNFAIR.. REALLY UNFAIR?GOOD MOGUL SKIERS ( WHETHER ON TEAMS OR REGULAR SHMUCKS LIKE US ) ARE THE BEST, MOST WELL ROUNDED SKIERS ON THE MOUNTAIN IN OUR OPINION, AND IT?S A SHAME THEY CAN?T GET ANY RESPECT. LOOK MR WILSON, WE UNDERSTAND YOU AND YOUR MANAGERS, WITHOUT A DOUBT , HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT JOB WHICH HAS ONLY BECOME MORE DIFFICULT IN RECENT YEARS WITH THE EXPLOSION OF THE NEW SCHOOL , IN TRYING TO SATISFY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS WHO SLIDE AROUND ON THE HILL EACH WINTER. PLEASE DON?T THINK WE DON?T APPRECIATE THAT. WE FULLY REALIZE THE SCOPE AND SIZE OF THE OPERATION YOU GUYS RUN THERE AT KILLINGTON AND HOW , A LOT OF THE TIME, YOU ARE A HOSTAGE TO FORCES THAT YOU CANNOT CONTROL, LIKE MOTHER NATURE. BUT FRANKLY SIR, WE DO NOT FEEL THAT WHAT WE ARE ASKING FOR IS ANYTHING THAT GREAT OR DEMANDING. THE FACT THAT KILLINGTON MOUNTAIN CANNOT DEDICATE 1 BLUE AND 1 BLACK DIAMOND RUN TO A MAN MADE , MAINTAINED WITH GOOD CONSISTENT SNOWMAKING, MOGUL RUN IS FRANKLY , RIDICULOUS. IN OUR OPINION THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR THIS?.WE HAVE HEARD THEM ALL AND NONE ARE VALID?NO RESOURCES ( HOW MUCH GOES IN TO PARKS AND PIPES? ) NOT ENOUGH TERRAIN? ( 200 PLUS TRAILS ) NO DEMAND? ( BALONEY.. IF PEOPLE HAD A BLUE SQUARE PITCHED , MAINTAINED BUMP RUN MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU THINK WOULD SKI IT? PEOPLE DON?T DEMAND BUMPS BECAUSE THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS UNDER THE FALSE IMPRESSION-THAT IS PROPAGATED BY SKI RESORT TERRAIN ( MIS ) MANAGEMENT- THAT MOGUL RUNS ARE ONLY / SHOULD ONLY BE ON DOUBLE BLACK DIAMONDS. AGAIN IT IS UNFAIR, IT IS UNJUST AND IT IS 50% OF THE REASON YOU HAVE LOST US AS CUSTOMERS. I KNOW THIS IS A LONG EMAIL SIR AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME , BUT LET ME TELL YOU A QUICK AND IRONIC SIDE STORY. LAST YEAR THREE OF US CAME UP FOR THE SPRINT FREESTYLE NATIONAL MOGUL CHAMPIONSHIPS THAT YOU HOSTED ( AND THAT I SEE YOU ARE HOSTING AGAIN THIS YEAR ) WE MADE SOME INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THAT WHOLE EXTRAVAGANZA THAT YOU PUT ON THAT WEEKEND?THE FIRST THING THAT STRUCK US WAS HOW MUCH TIME AND ENERGY APPEARED TO BE GOING INTO CONSTRUCTING A MOGUL COURSE ON ?OUTERLIMITS? YOUR FAMOUS ? MOGUL RUN. LEAVING ASIDE THAT FACT THAT OUTER LIMITS, THESE DAYS, IS GENERALLY UNSKIABLE JUNK 80% OF THE TIME BECAUSE IT IS SO STEEP AND ALLOWED TO ?BUMP UP? NATURALLY AS THEY SAY, ALL OF US COULDN?T HELP BUT LAUGH AND SAY, WHY DON?T? THEY JUST HAVE THE NATIONALS ON OUTERLIMITS THE WAY IT NORMALLY IS? THAT IS- UNMANAGED , NATURALLY FORMED BUMPS?? WE BOTH KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT MR WILSON. THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK US WAS THAT IN BETWEEN WATCHING ALL THE GREAT MOGUL SKIERS SKI DOWN THE MAN MADE MOGUL COURSE, WE SKIED AROUND THE HILL. WE SKIED MORE THAN AROUND.. WE SKIED OVER EVERY SINGLE TRAIL ON YOUR HILL? AND THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE SUSTAINED RUN OF MOGULS OR BUMPS FOR US TO SKI ON THE ENTIRE HILL ( OUTSIDE OF A SILLY DEVILS FIDDLE WHICH BY ANYONES REASONABLE DEFINITION WOULD NOT BE CALLED A DECENT BUMP RUN ON THAT DAY) ? THE US MOGUL CHAMPIONSHIP WAS IN TOWN AND THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE DECENT MOGUL LINE TO SKI ON THE HILL? THE HILL THAT LIKES TO ADVERTISE IT?S TRIPLE DIGIT TRAIL COUNT. ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.
2) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO COMPLETELY ABANDON SKIING IN THE MONTH OF MAY- THE FOLLOWING IS A RESPONSE FROM YOU MARKTING DEPARTMENT TO AN EMAIL SENT BY ONE OF US ( JOHN SULLIVAN ) INQUIRING ABOUT SKIING IN MAY FOR THIS UPCOMING SEASON.. WE WERE , AT THE TIME TRYING TO MAKE AN EVALUATION ABOUT BUYING SEASON PASSES.
the following email was sent to my friend john by your info services
-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Killington Info Services" <info@killington.com>
To: <jsul185@comcast.net>
Subject: Killington
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:23:03 +0000
Dear John,
As of right now we are targeting to stay open until early May we won't be going to Memorial Day this year. Unfortunately the skier demand for skiing in mid to late May isn't even close to covering the cost of the snowmaking. While we are no longer operating until the end of May our season pass prices have reduced substantially and are the best deals available. We are targeting to open in early November unless we get a large early snowstorm like last year in which case we will open earlier.
NOW I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A CHART WITH NUMBERS FROM YOUR OWN WEB SITE NOT TOO LONG AGO, BEFORE IT WAS REMOVED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, THAT SHOWS SOME INTERESTING NUMBERS:
SEASON OPEN /CLOSE SKI DAYS TOTAL SNOW SNOW MARCH 1ST ON
86
OCT 1- JUNE 3
224
233
40
87
0CT12- JUNE 3
227
238
55
88
OCT 13-MAY21
211
202
42
89
OCT10-MAY28
208
249
44
90
OCT-27-MAY28
214
206
39
91
OCT 21-JUNE 14
226
198
49
92
OCT 1 JUNE 1
229
300
99
93
OCT 1 JUNE 9
243
279
62
94
OCT 3 JUNE 4
214
182
36
95
OCT 17 JUNE10
224
307
120
96
OCT 4 JUNE 22
233
301
119
97
OCT 1 MAY 25
205
242
65
98
OCT 22 MAY 25
204
186
55
99
OCT 25 MAY 29
205
209
50
00
OCT 29 MAY27
202
316
125
01
NOV 6 JUNE 1
202
192
63
02
OCT 25 MAY 26
204
291
58
I DIDN?T PUT UP THE NUMBERS FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS BECASUE I AM SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THEM (AS I AM SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THE NUMBERS ABOVE BUT I JUST PUT THEM IN FOR EMPHASIS), BUT IN 03 THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY A DECISION MADE TO CUT THE SEASON DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. MR WILSON I UNDERSTAND THAT THE SIMPLE CHART COULD BE MISINTERPRETED AS IT DOES NOT FACTOR IN CONDITIONS LIKE WEATHER THAT COULD CAUSE YEAR TO YEAR DECSIONS TO VARY. BUT THE CHART CLEARLY SHOWS THAT AT ONE POINT ? THE DEMAND ? THAT YOUR STAFFER TALKS ABOUT IN THE EMAIL REPLY TO JOHN, MUST HAVE BEEN THERE TO SOME DEGREE FOR SPRING SKIING?WHEN YOUR STAFFER SAYS ? Unfortunately the skier demand for skiing in mid to late May isn't even close to covering the cost of the snowmaking ? WE JUST HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN. THAT SOUNDS LIKE TOTAL SPIN AND BALONEY. IF THERE HAS BEEN A REDUCTION IN ? DEMAND ? FOR SPRING SKIING- OUR OBSERVATIONS WOULD BE THAT THE REDUCTION COMES FROM 1) THE MOUNTAIN?S CONSCIOUS AND CALCULATED DECISION TO INCREMENTALLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS NOT MAKE ENOUGH SNOW ON SUPERSTAR THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE YEAR TO PROVIDE A DEEP ENOUGH BASE TO HAVE SKIING IN MAY AND THEREFORE SLOWLY REDUCE YEAR BY YEAR ( WHAT IS PERCIEVED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC ) TO BE THE ? QUALITY OF SNOW ? TO THE POINT WHERE ALL BUT THE MOST DEDICATED SICK BIRD SKIERS ARE WILLING TO COME OUT AND SKI ON. IT SEEMS A LITTLE SILLY , WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THE ABOVE CHART , TO THINK THAT PROVIDING SNOWMAKING AND THE COST OF SNOWMAKING, WITH ALL THE ADVANCES TECHNOLOGICALLY THAT SURELY HAVE COME ABOUT SINCE THE MID TO LATE 1980?S , TO BLAME THE COST OF SNOWMAKING FOR THE REASON YOU DO NOT SPIN THE SUPERSTAR LIFT TILL THE END OF MAY ANYMORE. THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM THE INFO SERVICES IS SO PHONY , IT ISN?T EVEN FUNNY? I JUST CAN?T BELIEVE THAT THE COMPANY MAKES IT?S DECISION TO SPIN LIFTS ON SUCH A CONVULTED PREMISE.. IF THAT WERE THE CASE, IT SEEMS LIKELY THAT YOU GUYS SURELY WOULD NOT OPERATE ON TUESDAY WED AND THURS AND PROBABLY WOULD NOT OPERATE BEFORE DEC 20TH AND NOT AFTER APRIL 1? WE ARE NOT HERE TO TELL YOU HOW TO RUN THE HILL OR THE COMPANY SIR , BECAUSE FOR SURE, IT IS NOT OUR PLACE?BUT THE RESPONSE IS INSULTING TO ANYONE WHO CAN SEE WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT KILLINGTON NOT THAT LONG AGO? 2) THE DECISION TO START GROOMING OUT SUPERSTAR IN THE SPRING THE LAST FEW YEARS OBVIOUSLY WOULD HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE AMOUNT OF SKIERS WHO TRADITIONALLY SKIED KILLINGTON IN THE SPRING. SPRING SKIING IS ABOUT MOGULS OR AT LEAST IT SHOULD BE. AND IF ? MOGULS ? WERE FOUND BY THE MARKETING DEPT PEOPLE TO BE ? PASSE ? AND ? NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR ? OR ? TOO TOUGH? FOR THE AVERAGE SKIER ?, MAYBE IF PEOPLE WERE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNIITY TO LEARN TO SKI BUMPS PROPERLY ( IE :LEARNING PROGRESSIVE TERRAIN AS DISCUSSED EARLIER ) THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, THEY WOULD LOOK TO SKI THOSE ? TOO TOUGH ? SUPERSTAR BUMPS IN MAY.
LOOK MR WILSON, NONE OF US HERE ON THE OUTSIDE KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT THE DEAL IS WITH THE NO MAY SKIING POLICY. AND I GUESS IN THE END NO ONE REALLY CARES WHAT WE THINK. A FEW OF MY FRIENDS PUT THE BLAME ON LES OTTEN AND SAY HE JUST MISMANAGED AND SPECULATED AND HEDGED THE HILL AND THE COMPANY TO THE BRINK OF DISASTER AND NOW WE ARE ALL PAYING FOR IT?I TEND TO THINK IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE. I KNOW INSURANCE COSTS FOR YOUR BUSINESS HAVE SPIRALED OUT OF HAND IN RECENT YEARS? BUT WHATEVER IT IS, IT IS NOT GOOD, AT LEAST FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE. YOU HAVE PRETTY MUCH LOST US AND OUR FAMILIES AS CUSTOMERS AS THE HILL JUST CAN?T SEEM TO OFFER US ANYTHING WE WANT- MOGUL TERRAIN AND SPRING SKIING. KILLINGTON USED TO BE ABLE TO OFFER THIS?. YOU GUYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO RUN THE COMPANY ANY WAY YOU SEE FIT AND FRANKLY, ALL OF US PRETTY KNOW THAT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, YOU LOSING US AS CUSTOMERS PROBABLY MEANS VERY LITTLE. BUT IT IS SAD BECAUSE WE ALL LOVE THE PLACE AND ALL LOVED AND LOOKED FORWARD TO BRINGING OUR CHILDREN UP THERE TO SKI DURING THE GREATEST TIME THERE IS TO SKI APRIL AND MAY?AND BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN MID WINTER FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, WE CAN?T EVEN JUSTIFY GOING THERE DURING THE REGULAR SEASON BECAUSE OF THE INEXPLICABLE UTTER LACK OF MOGUL TERRAIN FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO SKI ON. DEDICATING ONE SINGLE BLUE SQUARE RUN AND A BLACK DIAMOND RUN ( OR EVEN JUST ½ THE SIDE OF A RUN IF YOU DON?T WANT TO TAKE UP THE WHOLE RUN ) TO HAVE SNOWCAT BUILT BUMPS THAT ARE TAKEN DOWN AND REBUILT EVERY 2 WEEKS THROUGHOUT THE SEASON JUST DOESN?T SEEM LIKE A LOT TO ASK...AS EVERY OTHER TYPE OF SKIER IS TAKEN CARE OF?..BUT APPARENTLY IT IS?THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES THAT WOULD NEED TO BE DEDICATED, RELATIVE TO WHAT YOU PUT INTO IN EVERY OTHER TYPE OF TERRAIN ON THE HILL, WOULD SEEM TO BE QUITE SMALL. VERY DISAPPOINTING FOR SURE.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME SIR.
JOE
GIL
JOHN
BRIAN
JOHN
last names removed by me for the fto post:
wilson's reponse:
Joe thanks for taking the time to send me your thoughts and I am sorry that you and your friends have decided not to purchase season passes. I understand your concerns and comments relative to dedicated bump courses and will be discussing that issue with my mountain operations team. I do however think you are being unfair in your criticism of our opening and closing model and our surface conditions. Yes we are closing earlier in May then we have historically and that is a business decision. We haven't changed our opening philosophy and in fact we were open on Halloween last year and plan to open as soon as Mother nature allows this year. While we did make the business decision to close a little earlier in May we also made the decision to reduce the cost of a season pass by almost 50%. Three years ago the cost of an anytime Killington season pass was 1149 and last year that same pass cost 599 so in our opinion it was a very fair decision for our guests. We are focused on giving our guests the best product and value in the industry.
Last year was a very challenging year weather wise with over 15 inches of rain and many days where the temperature dropped from the 40s and 50s to single digits within 12 hour. While that is challenging there isn't anyone in the industry that can recover from a weather event like that any faster or better than Killington, due to the size and investment we have made in our snowmaking and grooming systems. So I do acknowledge that you could have hit a few days where the surface conditions were not stellar but that is not the norm.
Killington is a fabulous mountain with terrain second to none in the East and I believe we deliver a superior product on a regular basis. I am sorry that you will not be joining us this year.
Allen
my response which recieved no response:
ALLEN,
THE SPEED AND TIMELINESS OF YOUR RESPONSE IS MOST IMPRESSIVE.KNOW YOU ARE VERY BUSY, EVEN MORE SO AT THIS TIME.
AS I WAS WRITING YOU, ABOUT HALF WAY THROUGH THE LETTER , I REALIZED ? MAN THIS THING IS PRETTY LONG??I?LL TRY AND KEEP THIS AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE LIKE I SAID, I KNOW YOUR TIME IS AT A PREMIUM NOW.
I FEEL BADLY THAT ANY PART OF WHAT I WROTE YOU COULD BE CONSTRUDE AS BEING CRITICAL IN ANYWAY OF SNOW SURFACES THAT ARE / HAVE BEEEN PRODUCED AT k. NONE OF OUR GROUP CAN STAND TO SKI WITH PRETTY MUCH ANY OF OUR RECREATIONAL SKIER FRIENDS BECAUSE NONE OF US HAVE ANY TOLERANCE FOR THE INEVITEABLE COMPLAINING THAT GOES ON ABOUT SKI SURFACES. PLEASE DON?T TAKE ANY OF WHAT I SAID AS SUCH. ANYONE WHO IS CRITICAL OF SNOW SURFACES IN THE EAST, AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME IN MY OPINION, FRANKLY, HAS NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. AND PERSONALLY, I WOULD DISMISS THEM AS AN IDIOT. EVERY SKI AREA IN THE EAST, I THINK, DOES PRETTY DARN WELL , I THINK, IN DEALING WITH THOSE ? LITTLE CHALLENGES ? LIKE THE 15 INCHES OF RAIN!!!!!!!. I NEVER HAVE AND I NEVER WILL COMPLAIN TO ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME ABOUT SKI SURFACE CONDITIONS.
I THINK THE CONTEXT OF MY COMPLAINT WAS MORE ABOUT THE OVERALL LACK OF DEPTH THAT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ON SUPERSTAR IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. THE LACK OF DEPTH , NOT THE ACTUAL SURFACE CONDITIONS, IS WHAT OUR PROBLEM WAS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, IF THERE IS NO SNOW , THERE IS NO SKIING. FROM OUR VIEW , IT SEEMED TO BE CONCERTED EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE HILL TO REDUCE THE ONCE FAMOUS 25 FEET OF SNOW ON ss , SO THAT COME MAY 1ST, THERE WAS PRETTY MUCH NO CHOICE BUT TO CLOSE. YOUR FRANK ADMISSION THAT THE BOTTOM LINE OF AN EARLY CLOSE NOW APPEARS TO BE THE POLICY OF THE MOUNTAIN IS APPRECIATED. BUT TO BE HONEST, IT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT ANYONE FROM THE HILL HAS BEEN HONEST ENOUGH TO SAY THAT TO US. WE WOULD GET NOTHING BUT A RUN AROUND WHEN WE WOULD ASK?. ONE OF THE REASONS WE WERE UPSET AT THE END OF LAST SEASON WAS THAT , GOING INTO THE SEASON, WITH OUR SUSPICIONS THAT MAY SKIING WAS ON THE OUTS, WE COULD NOT GET ANY CONFIRMATION OF THIS FROM ANYONE WITH ANY AUTHORITY. IN FACT, ON 2 OCCASIONS, WE WERE TOLD THE EXACT OPPOSITE- WE WERE NOT IN ANY WAY LED TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ANY SORT OF GUARANTEE OF SKIING THROUGH MAY, AS THAT WOULD BE JUST RIDICULOUS TO EXPECT. BUT WE WERE TOLD UNEQUIVOCALY THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE?. NECESSARILY.
OBVIOUSLY OUR GROUP IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, TO SAY THE LEAST , THAN WHAT I GUESS WOULD BE DEFINED AS THE TYPICAL SKIER, FROM YOUR MARKETING PERSPECTIVE. ALL OF US FIND IT ASTOUNDING THAT THERE IS A BIG CLAMOR FOR RESORTS TO OPEN IN NOV SO PEOPLE CAN SKI AROUND AND INTO SNOW GUNS BLASTING AND ON FROZEN ICE CHIPS AND WOULD RATHER . APPARENTLY DO THAT THAN SKI IN 50 AND 60 DEGREE WEATHER IN MAY. ABSOLUTELY ASTOUNDING. THE QUOTE FROM THE INFO SERVICES PEOPLE ABOUT THE COST OF SNOWMAKING SOMEHOW MAKING MAY SKIING A RISK , SEEMED A LITTLE TO DISENGENOUS TO US . IT WOULD SEEM TO US THE GREATER FINANCIAL RISK LIES WITH TRYING TO GET THE PLACE OPEN IN OCT AND NOV WHERE IT WOULD SEEM, AS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, THE LIKELYHOOD OF BEING WIPED OUT BY RAIN AND HAVING TO CLOSE THE PLACE, WOULD BE GREATER. NONE OF US HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH YOU GUYS HOLDING OUT AND WAITING UNTIL YOU HAVE TOP TO BOTTOM. THAT IS A SMART BUSINESS DECISION. WE THINK YOU SHOULD OPEN EVEN LATER, IF IT WOULD GIVE A SHOT TO STAYING OPEN LONGER!!!!!!!! IT IS JUST KIND OF TOUGH TO TAKE TO HAVE EXPERIENCE THE JOYS OF SKIING IN MAY ON ss ON SIGNIFICANT BASES AND SEEING IT WIPED OUT BEFORE OUR EYES PARTLY IN PART BECAUSE THE PUBIC IS JUST PLAIN STUPID. AND LOOKING AT THAT CHART, I GET SICK TO MY STOMACH THINKING ABOUT HOW THERE ONCE WAS A TIME THAT ONE COULD BE SKIING IN THE SECOND WEEK OF JUNE AT k
YOUR POINT ABOUT THE PRICE CUT IN PASSES IS CERTAINLY VALID. BUT TOO BE HONEST WITH YOU, WHEN THIS CHEAP SEASON PASS STUFF STARTED OUT ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO INDUSTRY WIDE, WE ALL KNEW IT WAS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD THING FOR US FROM OUR SELFISH PERSPECTIVE?AGAIN ALLEN, YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE NORMAL CUSTOMERS WITH US , WE KNOW. OBVIOUSLY YOUR MARKETING STUDIES HAVE SHOWN WHAT YOU ARE DOING WORKS. BUT YOU SHOULD KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WOULD GLADLY PAY THE EXTRA 2 OR 3 OR $400 OR WHATEVER TO GET THAT SEASON PASS THAT WOULD GET US LIFTS SPINNING IN MAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. IS IT JUST NOT COST FEASABLE IN ANY WAY TO KEEP THE ALL FOR ONE PROGRAM LIKE IT IS AND THEN OFFER , AFTER DOING SOME STUDIES FOR A START DATE, SOME SORT OF POST APRIL 1 PASS?. OR COULD YOU OFFER AN ALL FOR ONE WITH AN OPTION FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MORE THAT GETS YOU ON SPINNING LIFTS AFTER SAY THE BEAR MOUNTAIN MOGUL CHALLENGE WEEKEND.? IS THERE A CHANCE THIS COULD BRING IN ENOUGH MONEY TO JUSTIFY SPINNING WELL INTO MAY?. I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WOULD PAY IT, ALLEN. WHAT I DON?T KNOW IS IF THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE. YOU GUYS USED TO OFFER THE SPRING PASS ( WHICH WE ALL THOUGHT WAS WAY TOO UNDERPRICED AT $199 FOR WHAT IT GOT ONE, TO BE HONEST ) . THE FACT YOU DON?T OFFER IT PROBABLY INDICATES YOU?VE DONE THE STUDIES AND CAN?T JUSTIFY IT. I THINK WE ALL JUST WANTED YOU TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE HEARTBROKEN PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO REALLY LONG FOR THE DAYS OF SKIING IN MAY WHEN IT IS NOT MINUS 2 OUT. WE JUST HOPE ALL THE AVENUES HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT OUTSIDE THE BOX AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.
THE ISSUE OF MOGULS, WE FEEL , IN SOME BIZARRE WAY, MAY BE RELATED. MOST PEOPLE DON?T SKI BUMPS ALLEN. YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW.. WE MAINTAIN THERE IS A REASON. THEY ARE UNAVAILABLE TO MOST. THEY ARE LOOKED AT AS NOT SERIOUS SKIING BY THE ALMIGHTY ALPINE COMMUNITY AND THEY ARE HARD? TO LEARN?BUT ONCE LEARNED, PEOPLE BECOME ADDICTED TO THEM. I THINK YOU WOULD SEE MORE DEMAND FOR MAY SKIING IF THERE WERE MORE TERRAIN AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO TEST THE WATERS MID WINTER WITH SKIING BUMPS THAT WERE PART OF A PROGRESSIVE LEARNING CURVE. MOGULS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY ABANDONED BY THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE. AND THAT IS A SHAME.
TAKE CARE AND HAVE A GOOD WINTER OVER THERE, ALLEN
take it for what it is. :? :? :? :? :roll: have a good winter boys
"I am not an instructor. I am not an author. But in my years of skiing I have noticed something. The folks that ski in the woods are hands down the best skiers on the hill. Any skier that can rip a tight line in the woods can also rip mouguls but mougul skiers cant always rip the trees."
i believe this was from nhpowderhound..... whatever
i figured though some may be interested in a recent correspondence that i had via email with allen wilson , the president of Killington. my email was prompted by my friend john emialing the general info line and receiving a totally ridiculous spin doctored response...the following is the original email i sent to wilson, his response and my response to his response...he didn't respond to the second email the main issues are 2 fold.. 1) killingtons lack of mogul runs and 2) killington's abandonment of spring skiing...
HELLO MR WILSON
MY NAME IS ( deleted ) . I, ALONG WITH MY FOUR FRIENDS , ( deleted) ARE WRITING TO YOU TODAY JUST TO EXPRESS SOME OF OUR FEELINGS TO YOU ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT YOUR MOUNTAIN APPEARS TO BE TAKING WITH A NUMBER OF OPERATIONAL ISSUES.
ALL 4 OF US HAVE BEEN SEASON PASSHOLDERS FOR KILLINGTON MOUNTAIN AND THE A.S.C IN THE PAST. ALL OF US HAVE ENJOYED SKIING KILLINGTON FOR SEVERAL YEARS . TO GIVE YOU JUST SOME BRIEF DEMOGRAPHIC?S SO YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE HEARING FROM, WE ARE ALL IN OUR 30?S AND 40?S. ALL OF US HAVE FAMILIES WITH SMALL CHILDREN. NOT ALL OF THE CHILDREN SKI YET BUT SOME OF THEM DO. ALL OF US ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE JOBS THAT ALLOW US TO SKI MID WEEK AND AVOID SKIING ON THE WEEKENDS.
IT IS WITH GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT AND DISPLEASURE THAT ALL OF US HAVE DECIDED NOT TO RENEW -REPURCHASE SEASON PASSES FROM YOUR MOUNTAIN AND THE A.S.C THIS YEAR BASED ON WHAT WE FEEL IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LACK OF RESPECT BEING SHOWN TO US ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS. LET ME LIST THE ISSUES WE HAVE AND THEN I WILL ADDRESS EACH ONE SPECIFICALLY.
1) YOUR MOUNTAIN?S TOTAL LACK OF INVESTMENT IN ANY SORT OF CONSTRUCTED AND REGULARLY MAINTAINED MOGUL RUNS ON BOTH BLUE AND BLACK TRAILS
2) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO COMPLETELY ABANDON SKIING DURING THE MONTH OF MAY
3) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO FORCE AN EXTREMELY PREMATURE DEADLINE FOR PURCHASING A SEASON PASS. ( IF ITEMS 1 AND 2 WERE NOT AN ISSUE, THIS #3 WOULD NTO BE SO MUCH AN ISSUE- I?LL EXPLAIN LATER)
ISSUE: LACK OF CONSISTENT MOGUL TERRAIN: IT IS OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WHO HAS PAID ATTENTION TO THE INDUSTRY AND HOW IT HAS BEEN EVOLVING OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS , THAT THE SO CALLED ? NEW SCHOOL? MOVEMENT OF SKIING HAS BEEN COMING TO THE FOREFRONT AND HAS ENERGIZED THE INDUSTRY. I AM SURE YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH WHAT WOULD BRAODLY DEFINE THE ? NEW SCHOOL ? MOVEMENT MR WILSON . THE PROLIFERATION OF HALF PIPES- JUMPS- RAILS ? AND WHAT THE KIDS CALL ?JIBS?, HAS OBVIOUSLY DEMANDED AND HAS RECEIVED AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION- AND CAN WE SAY RESOURCES FROM THE INDUSTRY IN GENERAL. ANY INDEPENDENT , UNBIASED OBSERVER WOULD SAY THAT ALLOCATING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES TO THIS ? NEW SCHOOL MOVEMENT ? COULD ONLY BE VIEWED AS A SMART BUSINESS DECISION FROM YOUR HILL?S MANAGEMENT PERSPECTIVE. ALL OF US AGREE ON THAT AND IN FACT, MY FRIENDS AND I FULLY SUPPORT IT. NONE OF US, FRANKLY, ARE ABLE TO EVEN CLOSELY COME CLOSE TO UTILIZING OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL OF THIS NEW TERRAIN THAT HAS BEEN INVESTED IN. WE ALL ( THE 4 OF US ) , HOWEVER , FULLY SUPPORT THIS AS IT CLEARLY HAS PLAYED A LARGE PART IN PRODUCING REVENUES FOR YOUR COMPANY. AND FRANKLY , IT IS A LOT OF FUN TO WATCH AS SOME ( AND I EMPHASIZE THE WORD ?SOME? HERE- FOR A LATER POINT ) OF THE PEOPLE WHO DO IN FACT MAKE USE OF THE TERRAIN SKI AT A VERY HIGH SKILL LEVEL. WHAT ANGERS MYSELF AND MY FRIENDS, AND YES MR WILSON, IT IS ANGER, IS THE TOTALLY UNFAIR LACK OF ATTENTION AND RESOURCES THAT IS GIVEN TO ANOTHER ASPECT OF SKIING THAT FRANKLY IS , IN OUR OPINION , THE MOST EXCITING DISIPLINE OF THE SPORT. MOGUL SKIING. OBVIOUSLY THE SPORT OF SKIING IS DEFINED BY MANY DISCIPLINES AND MANY TYPES OF SKIERS COME TO YOUR MOUNTAIN TO TAKE PART IN THE GREAT SPORT OF SKIING. YOUR MOUNTAIN DOES A GREAT JOB SERVICING / CATERING TO PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE TYPE OF SKIER/RIDER THERE IS OUT THERE . RECREATIONAL SKIERS LOOKING FOR CARPET AND CRUISER RUNS ON BLUES- HIGHER LEVEL RECREATIONAL WEEKEND WARRIOR SKIERS LOOKING FOR STEEP CRUISERS WHERE THEY CAN POINT EM DOWN AND SKI 1000MPH AND THINK THEY ARE BODE MILLER- ALPINE RACERS LOOKING FOR GATES AND FLAT STEEP GROOMED OUT COURSES- NEW SCHOOLERS AND JIBBERS LOOKING FOR HALFPIPES- AND RAILS AND 50 FOOT TABLE TOP JUMPS- TREE SKIING FOR OFF PISTE TREE SKIERS. AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN ALL OF THESE THINGS SIR? EXCEPT FOR ONE, UNFORTUNATELY?.. MOGUL SKIING. MR WILSON, IT IS ABSOLUTELY STUNNING TO US THAT A MOUNTAIN THE SIZE OF KILLINGTON, DOES NOT/ REFUSES TO, PUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF RESOURCES INTO HAVING AVAILABLE A CONSISTENTLY MAN MADE AND MAINTAINED BLUE SQUARE AND BLACK DIAMOND MOGUL RUN OF SIGNIFICANT LENGTH. WITH ALL DO RESPECT SIR, THE FACT THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERY OTHER TYPE OF SKIER THAT EXISTS IS TAKEN CARE OF AND HAS STEADY CONSISTENT RELIABLE TERRAIN TO SKI ON EXCEPT RECREATIONAL MOGUL SKIERS IS VERY DISTURBING TO US. I UNDERLINE THE WORD RECREATIONAL SIR, BECAUSE MY FRIENDS AND I ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY SORT OF FREESTYLE TEAM AND WE ARE NOT 15 YEARS OLD. WE ARE JUST REGULAR GUYS WHO LIKE TO SKI MORE THAN GROOMED OUT , FLAT CARPET BUT SINCE WE HAVE TO GO TO WORK AND PAY THE BILLS, WE CANNOT FULLY BECOME PART OF THE ? NEW SCHOOL? CLUB AND HURL OURSELVES OFF 50 FOOT JUMPS OR 18 FOOT HALFPIPE WALLS. WHAT WE CAN DO/ WHAT WE LIKE TO DO/ WHAT WE HAVE WORKED EXTREMELY HARD AT TRYING TO DO IS MOGUL SKI?. MOGUL SKIING , AT ONE TIME, WAS NEW SCHOOL SKIING MR WILSON. THERE WOULD BE NO NEW SCHOOL / HALFPIPE SKIING WITHOUT MOGUL SKIING. AND AGAIN, I CAN?T EMPHASIZE THIS ENGOUGH, NONE OF US HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PUTTING RESOURCES INTO THIS ASPECT , OR ANY OTHER ASPECT OF THE SPORT THAT YOU AND YOUR MARKETING AND ON HILL MANAGERS SEE FIT. BUT IT IS AN ABSOLUTE OUTRAGE THAT YOU AND YOUR ON HILL MANAGERS SEEM TO FEEL THAT YOU CANNOT DEDICATE ANY SIGNIFICANT TIME / ENERGY AND RESOURCES TO HAVING AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC MANAGED MOGUL TERRAIN?.WE EMPHASIZE THE WORD MANAGED BECAUSE WE HAVE FOUND THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS HYPOCRITICAL SCHOOL OF THOUGHT IN THE SKIING INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, THAT MOGUL SKIING ( IF IT IS ALLOWED TO EXIST ALL IS ALL ABOUT JUST LETTING A ( AND ONLY A L ) SUPERSTEEP BLACK DIAMOND TRAIL GO UNGROOMED AND THE RESULTING PILES AND MOUNDS OF SNOW TURN INTO BUMPS. AND HERE IN THE EAST, THAT TERRAIN AND IT ?S RESULTING ICE PILES TYPICALLY IS , FRANKLY, UNSKIABLE JUNK 90% OF THE TIME. I USE THE WORD HYPOCIRITICAL BECAUSE FRANKLY IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE ANY OF YOUR ALPINE RACE TEAMS ( BE THEY RECREATIONAL OR FROM THE KMS SCHOOL ) BEING FORCED TO SKI THE TERRAIN THEY LIKE TO SKI THAT SAY, GOES UNGROOMED, OR UNMAINTAINED FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME. HOW MUCH MONEY DOES A HALF PIPE CUTTER COST TO PURCHASE AND MAINTAIN? I DON?T KNOW FOR SURE BUT I HAVE A FEELING IT IS NOT AVAILABLE AT THE LOCAL SEARS STORE FOR $999 SITTING BESIDE THE LAWN MOWERS ON SALE. I?M PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE A LITTLE HERE BECAUSE I AM COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN TO NOT EVEN PROVIDE IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY- THE MOGUL TERRAIN ITSELF. THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE , BUT MAINTAINING IT AND PROVIDING IT ON TERRAIN THAT IS MANAGEABLE IS A LARGE PART OF THE POINT. THE IDEA OF MOGUL TERRAIN ONLY BEING ON ? ? UNMANAGED TERRAIN ? IE UNGROOMED BLACK STEEP DIAMONDS- IS LUDICROUS AND AN INSULT AND JUST PLAIN UNFAIR. LET?S ANALYZE THIS FOR A MINUTE- START AT THE BEGINNING: NEW SKIER- NEVER BEEN ON SKIS BEFORE- WHAT DO YOU KILLINGTON SKI SCHOOL INSTRUCTORS DO WITH THEM? I ASSUME THEY TAKE THEM OUT ONTO GENTLE , VERY LOW PITCHED TERRAIN. AND THE BETTER THEY GET THE STEEP RUNS THEY CAN TACKLE.. AND WHY CAN THEY TACKLE PROGRESSIVELY STEEPER RUNS? BECAUSE THE MOUNTAIN PROVIDES THEM. SEEMS QUITE LOGICAL AS PUTTING THEM INTO TERRAIN THAT IS TOO STEEP WOULD VERY LIKELY RESULT IN 1) A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE 2) INJURY 3) THEM NOT COMING BACK. LETS MOVE UP?SMALL CHILD IN A RACE PROGRAM- WHAT DO THEY START OUT RACING GATES ON- DOUBLE BLACKS PITCHED RUNS? NOT LIKELY. SMALLER PITCHED RUNS WITH THEIR RACE GATES AND THEY PROGRESS UP? WHY DO THEY PROGESS UP? BECAUSE THE MOUNTIAN PROVIDES THE TRERRAIN . LETS GO TO THE NEW SCHOOL- SMALL JIB?S MEDIUM JIBS LARGE JIBS.. THEY ARE ALL OVER YOUR MOUNTAIN MR WILSON?YOU DEDICATE ENTIRE ACRES TO THEM.. A GREAT IDEA?YOU DON?T WANT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING GOING OFF THOSE 50 FOOT TABLES FOR SURE. YOU PROVIDE THEM WITH PROGRESSIVE LEARNING FEATURES.. A VERY LOGICAL THING TO DO?YOU MOUNTAIN GIVES MOGUL SKIERS NONE OF THIS SIR?IT HAS BECOME PAINFULLY OBVIOUS TO ALL OF US OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS. MY FRIENDS AND I HAVE SAT AND TALKED TO YOUR FREESTYLE PROGRAM COACHES ( AGAIN WE ARE NOT COACHES AND WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY PROGRAMS WE ARE REGULAR MIDDLE AGED GUYS WHO WANT TO SKI BUMPS ) AND HEARD THEIR COMPLAINTS ALSO.. SO FRANKLY , WE FIGURE IF THE FREESTYLE MOGUL PROGRAM CAN?T EVEN GET ANY TERRAIN TO SKI ON, US REGULAR GUYS HAVE NO CHANCE.. BUT IT IS UNFAIR.. REALLY UNFAIR?GOOD MOGUL SKIERS ( WHETHER ON TEAMS OR REGULAR SHMUCKS LIKE US ) ARE THE BEST, MOST WELL ROUNDED SKIERS ON THE MOUNTAIN IN OUR OPINION, AND IT?S A SHAME THEY CAN?T GET ANY RESPECT. LOOK MR WILSON, WE UNDERSTAND YOU AND YOUR MANAGERS, WITHOUT A DOUBT , HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT JOB WHICH HAS ONLY BECOME MORE DIFFICULT IN RECENT YEARS WITH THE EXPLOSION OF THE NEW SCHOOL , IN TRYING TO SATISFY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS WHO SLIDE AROUND ON THE HILL EACH WINTER. PLEASE DON?T THINK WE DON?T APPRECIATE THAT. WE FULLY REALIZE THE SCOPE AND SIZE OF THE OPERATION YOU GUYS RUN THERE AT KILLINGTON AND HOW , A LOT OF THE TIME, YOU ARE A HOSTAGE TO FORCES THAT YOU CANNOT CONTROL, LIKE MOTHER NATURE. BUT FRANKLY SIR, WE DO NOT FEEL THAT WHAT WE ARE ASKING FOR IS ANYTHING THAT GREAT OR DEMANDING. THE FACT THAT KILLINGTON MOUNTAIN CANNOT DEDICATE 1 BLUE AND 1 BLACK DIAMOND RUN TO A MAN MADE , MAINTAINED WITH GOOD CONSISTENT SNOWMAKING, MOGUL RUN IS FRANKLY , RIDICULOUS. IN OUR OPINION THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR THIS?.WE HAVE HEARD THEM ALL AND NONE ARE VALID?NO RESOURCES ( HOW MUCH GOES IN TO PARKS AND PIPES? ) NOT ENOUGH TERRAIN? ( 200 PLUS TRAILS ) NO DEMAND? ( BALONEY.. IF PEOPLE HAD A BLUE SQUARE PITCHED , MAINTAINED BUMP RUN MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU THINK WOULD SKI IT? PEOPLE DON?T DEMAND BUMPS BECAUSE THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS UNDER THE FALSE IMPRESSION-THAT IS PROPAGATED BY SKI RESORT TERRAIN ( MIS ) MANAGEMENT- THAT MOGUL RUNS ARE ONLY / SHOULD ONLY BE ON DOUBLE BLACK DIAMONDS. AGAIN IT IS UNFAIR, IT IS UNJUST AND IT IS 50% OF THE REASON YOU HAVE LOST US AS CUSTOMERS. I KNOW THIS IS A LONG EMAIL SIR AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME , BUT LET ME TELL YOU A QUICK AND IRONIC SIDE STORY. LAST YEAR THREE OF US CAME UP FOR THE SPRINT FREESTYLE NATIONAL MOGUL CHAMPIONSHIPS THAT YOU HOSTED ( AND THAT I SEE YOU ARE HOSTING AGAIN THIS YEAR ) WE MADE SOME INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THAT WHOLE EXTRAVAGANZA THAT YOU PUT ON THAT WEEKEND?THE FIRST THING THAT STRUCK US WAS HOW MUCH TIME AND ENERGY APPEARED TO BE GOING INTO CONSTRUCTING A MOGUL COURSE ON ?OUTERLIMITS? YOUR FAMOUS ? MOGUL RUN. LEAVING ASIDE THAT FACT THAT OUTER LIMITS, THESE DAYS, IS GENERALLY UNSKIABLE JUNK 80% OF THE TIME BECAUSE IT IS SO STEEP AND ALLOWED TO ?BUMP UP? NATURALLY AS THEY SAY, ALL OF US COULDN?T HELP BUT LAUGH AND SAY, WHY DON?T? THEY JUST HAVE THE NATIONALS ON OUTERLIMITS THE WAY IT NORMALLY IS? THAT IS- UNMANAGED , NATURALLY FORMED BUMPS?? WE BOTH KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT MR WILSON. THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK US WAS THAT IN BETWEEN WATCHING ALL THE GREAT MOGUL SKIERS SKI DOWN THE MAN MADE MOGUL COURSE, WE SKIED AROUND THE HILL. WE SKIED MORE THAN AROUND.. WE SKIED OVER EVERY SINGLE TRAIL ON YOUR HILL? AND THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE SUSTAINED RUN OF MOGULS OR BUMPS FOR US TO SKI ON THE ENTIRE HILL ( OUTSIDE OF A SILLY DEVILS FIDDLE WHICH BY ANYONES REASONABLE DEFINITION WOULD NOT BE CALLED A DECENT BUMP RUN ON THAT DAY) ? THE US MOGUL CHAMPIONSHIP WAS IN TOWN AND THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE DECENT MOGUL LINE TO SKI ON THE HILL? THE HILL THAT LIKES TO ADVERTISE IT?S TRIPLE DIGIT TRAIL COUNT. ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.
2) YOUR MOUNTAINS DECISION TO COMPLETELY ABANDON SKIING IN THE MONTH OF MAY- THE FOLLOWING IS A RESPONSE FROM YOU MARKTING DEPARTMENT TO AN EMAIL SENT BY ONE OF US ( JOHN SULLIVAN ) INQUIRING ABOUT SKIING IN MAY FOR THIS UPCOMING SEASON.. WE WERE , AT THE TIME TRYING TO MAKE AN EVALUATION ABOUT BUYING SEASON PASSES.
the following email was sent to my friend john by your info services
-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Killington Info Services" <info@killington.com>
To: <jsul185@comcast.net>
Subject: Killington
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:23:03 +0000
Dear John,
As of right now we are targeting to stay open until early May we won't be going to Memorial Day this year. Unfortunately the skier demand for skiing in mid to late May isn't even close to covering the cost of the snowmaking. While we are no longer operating until the end of May our season pass prices have reduced substantially and are the best deals available. We are targeting to open in early November unless we get a large early snowstorm like last year in which case we will open earlier.
NOW I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A CHART WITH NUMBERS FROM YOUR OWN WEB SITE NOT TOO LONG AGO, BEFORE IT WAS REMOVED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, THAT SHOWS SOME INTERESTING NUMBERS:
SEASON OPEN /CLOSE SKI DAYS TOTAL SNOW SNOW MARCH 1ST ON
86
OCT 1- JUNE 3
224
233
40
87
0CT12- JUNE 3
227
238
55
88
OCT 13-MAY21
211
202
42
89
OCT10-MAY28
208
249
44
90
OCT-27-MAY28
214
206
39
91
OCT 21-JUNE 14
226
198
49
92
OCT 1 JUNE 1
229
300
99
93
OCT 1 JUNE 9
243
279
62
94
OCT 3 JUNE 4
214
182
36
95
OCT 17 JUNE10
224
307
120
96
OCT 4 JUNE 22
233
301
119
97
OCT 1 MAY 25
205
242
65
98
OCT 22 MAY 25
204
186
55
99
OCT 25 MAY 29
205
209
50
00
OCT 29 MAY27
202
316
125
01
NOV 6 JUNE 1
202
192
63
02
OCT 25 MAY 26
204
291
58
I DIDN?T PUT UP THE NUMBERS FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS BECASUE I AM SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THEM (AS I AM SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THE NUMBERS ABOVE BUT I JUST PUT THEM IN FOR EMPHASIS), BUT IN 03 THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY A DECISION MADE TO CUT THE SEASON DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. MR WILSON I UNDERSTAND THAT THE SIMPLE CHART COULD BE MISINTERPRETED AS IT DOES NOT FACTOR IN CONDITIONS LIKE WEATHER THAT COULD CAUSE YEAR TO YEAR DECSIONS TO VARY. BUT THE CHART CLEARLY SHOWS THAT AT ONE POINT ? THE DEMAND ? THAT YOUR STAFFER TALKS ABOUT IN THE EMAIL REPLY TO JOHN, MUST HAVE BEEN THERE TO SOME DEGREE FOR SPRING SKIING?WHEN YOUR STAFFER SAYS ? Unfortunately the skier demand for skiing in mid to late May isn't even close to covering the cost of the snowmaking ? WE JUST HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN. THAT SOUNDS LIKE TOTAL SPIN AND BALONEY. IF THERE HAS BEEN A REDUCTION IN ? DEMAND ? FOR SPRING SKIING- OUR OBSERVATIONS WOULD BE THAT THE REDUCTION COMES FROM 1) THE MOUNTAIN?S CONSCIOUS AND CALCULATED DECISION TO INCREMENTALLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS NOT MAKE ENOUGH SNOW ON SUPERSTAR THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE YEAR TO PROVIDE A DEEP ENOUGH BASE TO HAVE SKIING IN MAY AND THEREFORE SLOWLY REDUCE YEAR BY YEAR ( WHAT IS PERCIEVED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC ) TO BE THE ? QUALITY OF SNOW ? TO THE POINT WHERE ALL BUT THE MOST DEDICATED SICK BIRD SKIERS ARE WILLING TO COME OUT AND SKI ON. IT SEEMS A LITTLE SILLY , WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THE ABOVE CHART , TO THINK THAT PROVIDING SNOWMAKING AND THE COST OF SNOWMAKING, WITH ALL THE ADVANCES TECHNOLOGICALLY THAT SURELY HAVE COME ABOUT SINCE THE MID TO LATE 1980?S , TO BLAME THE COST OF SNOWMAKING FOR THE REASON YOU DO NOT SPIN THE SUPERSTAR LIFT TILL THE END OF MAY ANYMORE. THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM THE INFO SERVICES IS SO PHONY , IT ISN?T EVEN FUNNY? I JUST CAN?T BELIEVE THAT THE COMPANY MAKES IT?S DECISION TO SPIN LIFTS ON SUCH A CONVULTED PREMISE.. IF THAT WERE THE CASE, IT SEEMS LIKELY THAT YOU GUYS SURELY WOULD NOT OPERATE ON TUESDAY WED AND THURS AND PROBABLY WOULD NOT OPERATE BEFORE DEC 20TH AND NOT AFTER APRIL 1? WE ARE NOT HERE TO TELL YOU HOW TO RUN THE HILL OR THE COMPANY SIR , BECAUSE FOR SURE, IT IS NOT OUR PLACE?BUT THE RESPONSE IS INSULTING TO ANYONE WHO CAN SEE WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT KILLINGTON NOT THAT LONG AGO? 2) THE DECISION TO START GROOMING OUT SUPERSTAR IN THE SPRING THE LAST FEW YEARS OBVIOUSLY WOULD HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE AMOUNT OF SKIERS WHO TRADITIONALLY SKIED KILLINGTON IN THE SPRING. SPRING SKIING IS ABOUT MOGULS OR AT LEAST IT SHOULD BE. AND IF ? MOGULS ? WERE FOUND BY THE MARKETING DEPT PEOPLE TO BE ? PASSE ? AND ? NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR ? OR ? TOO TOUGH? FOR THE AVERAGE SKIER ?, MAYBE IF PEOPLE WERE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNIITY TO LEARN TO SKI BUMPS PROPERLY ( IE :LEARNING PROGRESSIVE TERRAIN AS DISCUSSED EARLIER ) THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, THEY WOULD LOOK TO SKI THOSE ? TOO TOUGH ? SUPERSTAR BUMPS IN MAY.
LOOK MR WILSON, NONE OF US HERE ON THE OUTSIDE KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT THE DEAL IS WITH THE NO MAY SKIING POLICY. AND I GUESS IN THE END NO ONE REALLY CARES WHAT WE THINK. A FEW OF MY FRIENDS PUT THE BLAME ON LES OTTEN AND SAY HE JUST MISMANAGED AND SPECULATED AND HEDGED THE HILL AND THE COMPANY TO THE BRINK OF DISASTER AND NOW WE ARE ALL PAYING FOR IT?I TEND TO THINK IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE. I KNOW INSURANCE COSTS FOR YOUR BUSINESS HAVE SPIRALED OUT OF HAND IN RECENT YEARS? BUT WHATEVER IT IS, IT IS NOT GOOD, AT LEAST FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE. YOU HAVE PRETTY MUCH LOST US AND OUR FAMILIES AS CUSTOMERS AS THE HILL JUST CAN?T SEEM TO OFFER US ANYTHING WE WANT- MOGUL TERRAIN AND SPRING SKIING. KILLINGTON USED TO BE ABLE TO OFFER THIS?. YOU GUYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO RUN THE COMPANY ANY WAY YOU SEE FIT AND FRANKLY, ALL OF US PRETTY KNOW THAT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, YOU LOSING US AS CUSTOMERS PROBABLY MEANS VERY LITTLE. BUT IT IS SAD BECAUSE WE ALL LOVE THE PLACE AND ALL LOVED AND LOOKED FORWARD TO BRINGING OUR CHILDREN UP THERE TO SKI DURING THE GREATEST TIME THERE IS TO SKI APRIL AND MAY?AND BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN MID WINTER FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, WE CAN?T EVEN JUSTIFY GOING THERE DURING THE REGULAR SEASON BECAUSE OF THE INEXPLICABLE UTTER LACK OF MOGUL TERRAIN FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO SKI ON. DEDICATING ONE SINGLE BLUE SQUARE RUN AND A BLACK DIAMOND RUN ( OR EVEN JUST ½ THE SIDE OF A RUN IF YOU DON?T WANT TO TAKE UP THE WHOLE RUN ) TO HAVE SNOWCAT BUILT BUMPS THAT ARE TAKEN DOWN AND REBUILT EVERY 2 WEEKS THROUGHOUT THE SEASON JUST DOESN?T SEEM LIKE A LOT TO ASK...AS EVERY OTHER TYPE OF SKIER IS TAKEN CARE OF?..BUT APPARENTLY IT IS?THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES THAT WOULD NEED TO BE DEDICATED, RELATIVE TO WHAT YOU PUT INTO IN EVERY OTHER TYPE OF TERRAIN ON THE HILL, WOULD SEEM TO BE QUITE SMALL. VERY DISAPPOINTING FOR SURE.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME SIR.
JOE
GIL
JOHN
BRIAN
JOHN
last names removed by me for the fto post:
wilson's reponse:
Joe thanks for taking the time to send me your thoughts and I am sorry that you and your friends have decided not to purchase season passes. I understand your concerns and comments relative to dedicated bump courses and will be discussing that issue with my mountain operations team. I do however think you are being unfair in your criticism of our opening and closing model and our surface conditions. Yes we are closing earlier in May then we have historically and that is a business decision. We haven't changed our opening philosophy and in fact we were open on Halloween last year and plan to open as soon as Mother nature allows this year. While we did make the business decision to close a little earlier in May we also made the decision to reduce the cost of a season pass by almost 50%. Three years ago the cost of an anytime Killington season pass was 1149 and last year that same pass cost 599 so in our opinion it was a very fair decision for our guests. We are focused on giving our guests the best product and value in the industry.
Last year was a very challenging year weather wise with over 15 inches of rain and many days where the temperature dropped from the 40s and 50s to single digits within 12 hour. While that is challenging there isn't anyone in the industry that can recover from a weather event like that any faster or better than Killington, due to the size and investment we have made in our snowmaking and grooming systems. So I do acknowledge that you could have hit a few days where the surface conditions were not stellar but that is not the norm.
Killington is a fabulous mountain with terrain second to none in the East and I believe we deliver a superior product on a regular basis. I am sorry that you will not be joining us this year.
Allen
my response which recieved no response:
ALLEN,
THE SPEED AND TIMELINESS OF YOUR RESPONSE IS MOST IMPRESSIVE.KNOW YOU ARE VERY BUSY, EVEN MORE SO AT THIS TIME.
AS I WAS WRITING YOU, ABOUT HALF WAY THROUGH THE LETTER , I REALIZED ? MAN THIS THING IS PRETTY LONG??I?LL TRY AND KEEP THIS AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE LIKE I SAID, I KNOW YOUR TIME IS AT A PREMIUM NOW.
I FEEL BADLY THAT ANY PART OF WHAT I WROTE YOU COULD BE CONSTRUDE AS BEING CRITICAL IN ANYWAY OF SNOW SURFACES THAT ARE / HAVE BEEEN PRODUCED AT k. NONE OF OUR GROUP CAN STAND TO SKI WITH PRETTY MUCH ANY OF OUR RECREATIONAL SKIER FRIENDS BECAUSE NONE OF US HAVE ANY TOLERANCE FOR THE INEVITEABLE COMPLAINING THAT GOES ON ABOUT SKI SURFACES. PLEASE DON?T TAKE ANY OF WHAT I SAID AS SUCH. ANYONE WHO IS CRITICAL OF SNOW SURFACES IN THE EAST, AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME IN MY OPINION, FRANKLY, HAS NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. AND PERSONALLY, I WOULD DISMISS THEM AS AN IDIOT. EVERY SKI AREA IN THE EAST, I THINK, DOES PRETTY DARN WELL , I THINK, IN DEALING WITH THOSE ? LITTLE CHALLENGES ? LIKE THE 15 INCHES OF RAIN!!!!!!!. I NEVER HAVE AND I NEVER WILL COMPLAIN TO ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME ABOUT SKI SURFACE CONDITIONS.
I THINK THE CONTEXT OF MY COMPLAINT WAS MORE ABOUT THE OVERALL LACK OF DEPTH THAT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ON SUPERSTAR IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. THE LACK OF DEPTH , NOT THE ACTUAL SURFACE CONDITIONS, IS WHAT OUR PROBLEM WAS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, IF THERE IS NO SNOW , THERE IS NO SKIING. FROM OUR VIEW , IT SEEMED TO BE CONCERTED EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE HILL TO REDUCE THE ONCE FAMOUS 25 FEET OF SNOW ON ss , SO THAT COME MAY 1ST, THERE WAS PRETTY MUCH NO CHOICE BUT TO CLOSE. YOUR FRANK ADMISSION THAT THE BOTTOM LINE OF AN EARLY CLOSE NOW APPEARS TO BE THE POLICY OF THE MOUNTAIN IS APPRECIATED. BUT TO BE HONEST, IT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT ANYONE FROM THE HILL HAS BEEN HONEST ENOUGH TO SAY THAT TO US. WE WOULD GET NOTHING BUT A RUN AROUND WHEN WE WOULD ASK?. ONE OF THE REASONS WE WERE UPSET AT THE END OF LAST SEASON WAS THAT , GOING INTO THE SEASON, WITH OUR SUSPICIONS THAT MAY SKIING WAS ON THE OUTS, WE COULD NOT GET ANY CONFIRMATION OF THIS FROM ANYONE WITH ANY AUTHORITY. IN FACT, ON 2 OCCASIONS, WE WERE TOLD THE EXACT OPPOSITE- WE WERE NOT IN ANY WAY LED TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ANY SORT OF GUARANTEE OF SKIING THROUGH MAY, AS THAT WOULD BE JUST RIDICULOUS TO EXPECT. BUT WE WERE TOLD UNEQUIVOCALY THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE?. NECESSARILY.
OBVIOUSLY OUR GROUP IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, TO SAY THE LEAST , THAN WHAT I GUESS WOULD BE DEFINED AS THE TYPICAL SKIER, FROM YOUR MARKETING PERSPECTIVE. ALL OF US FIND IT ASTOUNDING THAT THERE IS A BIG CLAMOR FOR RESORTS TO OPEN IN NOV SO PEOPLE CAN SKI AROUND AND INTO SNOW GUNS BLASTING AND ON FROZEN ICE CHIPS AND WOULD RATHER . APPARENTLY DO THAT THAN SKI IN 50 AND 60 DEGREE WEATHER IN MAY. ABSOLUTELY ASTOUNDING. THE QUOTE FROM THE INFO SERVICES PEOPLE ABOUT THE COST OF SNOWMAKING SOMEHOW MAKING MAY SKIING A RISK , SEEMED A LITTLE TO DISENGENOUS TO US . IT WOULD SEEM TO US THE GREATER FINANCIAL RISK LIES WITH TRYING TO GET THE PLACE OPEN IN OCT AND NOV WHERE IT WOULD SEEM, AS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, THE LIKELYHOOD OF BEING WIPED OUT BY RAIN AND HAVING TO CLOSE THE PLACE, WOULD BE GREATER. NONE OF US HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH YOU GUYS HOLDING OUT AND WAITING UNTIL YOU HAVE TOP TO BOTTOM. THAT IS A SMART BUSINESS DECISION. WE THINK YOU SHOULD OPEN EVEN LATER, IF IT WOULD GIVE A SHOT TO STAYING OPEN LONGER!!!!!!!! IT IS JUST KIND OF TOUGH TO TAKE TO HAVE EXPERIENCE THE JOYS OF SKIING IN MAY ON ss ON SIGNIFICANT BASES AND SEEING IT WIPED OUT BEFORE OUR EYES PARTLY IN PART BECAUSE THE PUBIC IS JUST PLAIN STUPID. AND LOOKING AT THAT CHART, I GET SICK TO MY STOMACH THINKING ABOUT HOW THERE ONCE WAS A TIME THAT ONE COULD BE SKIING IN THE SECOND WEEK OF JUNE AT k
YOUR POINT ABOUT THE PRICE CUT IN PASSES IS CERTAINLY VALID. BUT TOO BE HONEST WITH YOU, WHEN THIS CHEAP SEASON PASS STUFF STARTED OUT ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO INDUSTRY WIDE, WE ALL KNEW IT WAS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD THING FOR US FROM OUR SELFISH PERSPECTIVE?AGAIN ALLEN, YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE NORMAL CUSTOMERS WITH US , WE KNOW. OBVIOUSLY YOUR MARKETING STUDIES HAVE SHOWN WHAT YOU ARE DOING WORKS. BUT YOU SHOULD KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WOULD GLADLY PAY THE EXTRA 2 OR 3 OR $400 OR WHATEVER TO GET THAT SEASON PASS THAT WOULD GET US LIFTS SPINNING IN MAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. IS IT JUST NOT COST FEASABLE IN ANY WAY TO KEEP THE ALL FOR ONE PROGRAM LIKE IT IS AND THEN OFFER , AFTER DOING SOME STUDIES FOR A START DATE, SOME SORT OF POST APRIL 1 PASS?. OR COULD YOU OFFER AN ALL FOR ONE WITH AN OPTION FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MORE THAT GETS YOU ON SPINNING LIFTS AFTER SAY THE BEAR MOUNTAIN MOGUL CHALLENGE WEEKEND.? IS THERE A CHANCE THIS COULD BRING IN ENOUGH MONEY TO JUSTIFY SPINNING WELL INTO MAY?. I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WOULD PAY IT, ALLEN. WHAT I DON?T KNOW IS IF THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE. YOU GUYS USED TO OFFER THE SPRING PASS ( WHICH WE ALL THOUGHT WAS WAY TOO UNDERPRICED AT $199 FOR WHAT IT GOT ONE, TO BE HONEST ) . THE FACT YOU DON?T OFFER IT PROBABLY INDICATES YOU?VE DONE THE STUDIES AND CAN?T JUSTIFY IT. I THINK WE ALL JUST WANTED YOU TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE HEARTBROKEN PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO REALLY LONG FOR THE DAYS OF SKIING IN MAY WHEN IT IS NOT MINUS 2 OUT. WE JUST HOPE ALL THE AVENUES HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT OUTSIDE THE BOX AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.
THE ISSUE OF MOGULS, WE FEEL , IN SOME BIZARRE WAY, MAY BE RELATED. MOST PEOPLE DON?T SKI BUMPS ALLEN. YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW.. WE MAINTAIN THERE IS A REASON. THEY ARE UNAVAILABLE TO MOST. THEY ARE LOOKED AT AS NOT SERIOUS SKIING BY THE ALMIGHTY ALPINE COMMUNITY AND THEY ARE HARD? TO LEARN?BUT ONCE LEARNED, PEOPLE BECOME ADDICTED TO THEM. I THINK YOU WOULD SEE MORE DEMAND FOR MAY SKIING IF THERE WERE MORE TERRAIN AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO TEST THE WATERS MID WINTER WITH SKIING BUMPS THAT WERE PART OF A PROGRESSIVE LEARNING CURVE. MOGULS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY ABANDONED BY THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE. AND THAT IS A SHAME.
TAKE CARE AND HAVE A GOOD WINTER OVER THERE, ALLEN
take it for what it is. :? :? :? :? :roll: have a good winter boys