Western U.S. vs. Eastern U.S. Skiing vs. Europe Skiing

baldyskier

Member
This topic was inspired by a couple of posts on this thread:
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=2187

Western Skiing vs. Eastern: Is it even debatable? I skied for a couple years back East before moving to CA. I felt (as a skier) that I had died and gone to heaven.
How can any Eastern resort compare to the amount and quality of snow, size and variety of terrain, and weather of the many good Western resorts?
Just wondering...
 
baldyskier":qzpiaq0w said:
Western Skiing vs. Eastern: Is it even debatable?

You're right in one way...you cannot compare the two of them.

baldyskier":qzpiaq0w said:
How can any Eastern resort compare to the amount and quality of snow, size and variety of terrain, and weather of the many good Western resorts?

You could say the same thing on how many Western resorts can compare with the Alps? According to this logic...

Alps # 1 > West > East

However, it's not because it's bigger than it's better.

This said, it's like comparing Apples and Oranges. I was skiied all three regions and I can definately say than the ALPS is not better than the East or the West. OR the WEST isn't any better than the East.

Just very different.
 
It's all good to me...wherever I'm at is where it's rockin' at that moment.

Been out West a bunch, big mountains, lots of BC, great snow.

Live in the East, love the hardpack, the New England charm, great on the occasional powder day, Mt. Washington is unique.

Been in Europe, love the ski history, snow reminds me of Eastern conditions for the most part.

Not much for comparisons.
 
Actually the topic has been discussed periodically. On the thread you mention I summarized my opinion:
My comments about relative quality of ski areas do not necessarily translate to "not worth skiing." They do mean that I'm not willing to spend as much time and $ to visit. But I will still check things out if there's sufficient incentive (subsidized NASJA trips to the East) or if I'm in the area for other reasons and marginal cost is low (Australia). To illustrate this point, the 2009 NASJA meeting is in Lutsen in Minnesota. If it were your decision how low would the price have to be to go there? If the rest of the 4-day trip were free, would you still buy a $400 plane ticket and use 2 vacation days?

From the West Coast you can do a full-price week in Utah or interior B.C. for the same price as a subsidized week back East. So I'm not that surprised that not many NASJA West members went to Quebec in 2003, and I'll bet even fewer sign up for Bretton Woods. I predict dismal attendance at Lutsen from both eastern and western members unless the meeting is much more subsidized than normal.

While the eastern ski areas do not compare to ours, they are sufficiently interesting that it's worth it to me once every 5 years with the partial comps. I've seriously never heard of anyone in the West going back East to ski on their own dime unless it was tied to a business trip, visiting friends or family etc. People don't fly in here to ski SoCal areas either for the same reasons.

The Europe vs. West comparison offers a choice between scale and more reliable snow, thus apples and oranges. Since the East is lesser than the West on both counts, we don't see western skiers paying to go East, and we even see some more affluent skiers that live in the East but do all their skiing in the West or the Alps.

As in many subjective discussions the truth can be smoked out by neutralizing the economic factors. Let's put some skiers in the Midwest, say Chicago, and give them 10 flights to say, Reno, SLC, Burlington or Quebec City. How many skiers would use even one of the 10 flights to one of the eastern cities? Now give some NYC skiers 10 flights to Reno, SLC, Geneva or Zurich and I'll bet you have a lively debate with most skiers trying all four.

I disagree with Jim G.'s comments about weather/conditions in the Alps. Once you get high enough (6,000 feet or so) rain (the bane of the East) becomes rare, and if it's north facing and 8,000+ snow preservation can be as good as Mammoth or Colorado as it's also farther north (latitude of Seattle or Quebec City). There are a whole bunch of Colorado areas that average ~250 inches, and I would expect that's typical of high elevation in the Alps. Verbier at 7,200 feet averges 223 inches, and ski terrain goes up to 10,000+ at many areas and as high as 12,000 at a few.

I analyzed the eastern weather issue (rain/freeze) here: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=1292 .

There are some eastern skiers on this board (powderfreak, riverc0il and Lucky Luke) who are well placed geographically and can thus cherry pick their ski days on short notice to maximize quality. Since the Northern Vermont snowbelt averages 250 - 300 inches midwinter fresh powder days can be as frequent as in the Colorado or Alpine areas I mention above. Due to smaller scale the snow gets tracked out faster than most western areas and much faster than in the Alps, but the Vermont skier with a flexible schedule still gets plenty of powder. I should also mention that the topography of Tuckerman's ravine is comparable to Squaw or Snowbird and nothing like eastern lift service.

The people in the above paragraph are the exception, not the rule. If you live in Boston or NYC metro areas the Vermont snowbelt is at least as far on powder days as Mammoth is from L.A. If you are booking an eastern trip in advance your exposure to very adverse weather/conditions (rain/freeze/limited terrain open due to coverage or safety issues) is about 1/3, based upon the reports I've been reading here for 6-7 years. Therefore once you get to the point of spending airfare $ in advance for a ski trip, the risk/reward balance of eastern skiing is unacceptable IMHO. Thus my advice to Gpaul in the other thread. Due to time of year his risk of limited terrain/crappy conditions is probably at least 1/2 vs. the 1/3 midwinter.
 
Tony Crocker":3gq9uc30 said:
I disagree with Jim G.'s comments about weather/conditions in the Alps. Once you get high enough (6,000 feet or so) rain (the bane of the East) becomes rare, and if it's north facing and 8,000+ snow preservation can be as good as Mammoth or Colorado as it's also farther north (latitude of Seattle or Quebec City).

I don't disagree with Jim, but for a different reason -- the European snow, when it falls, is of a similar consistency to that which falls in New England, in my experience. It's denser and wetter than Rocky Mountain snow.

Tony Crocker":3gq9uc30 said:
Due to smaller scale the snow gets tracked out faster than most western areas and much faster than in the Alps, but the Vermont skier with a flexible schedule still gets plenty of powder.

You're neglecting to consider the woods skiing factor. If you're capable of skiing Eastern hardwoods, and know where you're going, you can get untracked a week after a storm in well-preserved locales.
 
I agree that the snow in the high elevation Alps may be more like Mammoth or Whistler than the Rockies. The key factor that separates both from the East is that it nearly always falls in solid rather than liquid form.

With regard to tree skiing the Northern Vermont snowbelt is again the only part of the East that has much of it. The scale of tree skiing at the best places like Jay, MRG and Stowe is about the same as SoCal's Mt. Baldy, definitely enough for epic powder days when conditions are right. But the scale of tree skiing at the best western areas like Steamboat or the Kootenay areas along the U.S./Canada border is much more.

I note that the easterners have not chosen to address my hypothetical choices (last paragraph of original quote) when costs/circumstances are equalized :p. We all have loyalty to our home areas (like Mt. Baldy) because we know them like the back of our hand and can hit them on short notice for powder days. The odds of epic powder days on an advance purchased destination week are not that high even in the best places like the Cottonwood Canyons. We should not confuse the disproportionate number of big days at our local areas as a measure of the overall quality of those areas. It's due to convenience, flexibility and local knowledge.
 
great points, tony. the need to cherry pick powder days on a flexible schedule with a broad radar is definitely a critical factor to enjoy the best the east has to offer. i have no experience in trip planning as i have booked perhaps two or three advanced skiing days in my life, those being when i was in college and without a car, depending on others for transportation. so i can not speak to the cost benefit and risk taking of booking a ski vacation. but i suspect cost issues are the big issue. it is also much easier logistically to just load up the car and go. the northern VT snow belt with exception of jay (4 hours) is only 3-3.5 hours from boston metro which is not terrible. even when i lived boston metro, i was able to cherry pick a lot of great days with mid-week time off and driving to where the powder fell. being local is certainly makes some decisions and frequency a lot easier. don't discount the woods issue that marc brings up. the knowledgeable woods skier can be doing powder laps as much as a week after a storm (cold weather permitting). but joe average skier isn't going to be getting day after the storm powder runs by looking at a trail map.
 
Tony Crocker":1j5bkyad said:
I note that the easterners have not chosen to address my hypothetical choices (last paragraph of original quote) when costs/circumstances are equalized
If I would be in the midwest, I would probably choose at least 2 flights to the East and 4 each for West and Europe.

I've never compared ski areas between East and West or the Alps for that matter. HOWEVER I can tell you that I enjoyed skiing in my top 4 areas in the East (Sugarloaf, Stowe, Whiteface and MRG) has much as any skiing in the West.

It's not the size that matters. I know many people are powder snow junkies, I too enjoy Powder, but I also enjoyed pretty much any good snow conditions. It's not because there isn't any Powder that I find the skiing boring. Another try into comparing East/West. Bridger Bowl, Grand Targhee and Big Sky/Moonlight without the tram wouldn't probably fit in my Top 4 in the East in them of terrain and enjoyment factors.

The feel is totally different, sorry but I cannot compare. That's also the reason why I don't believe it's a mistake going East instead of West like Gpaul is thinking (other discussion).

You might ask why I would still considering a trip out West maybe again this year? The reason is fairly simple, there are a lot of places I want to ski and I've been around pretty much all the ski areas I want to ski in the East. It's like when you eat always the same food, you need variety in your diet.
 
The main reason snow conditions are in the equation is not the positive powder day end of the distribution. It's the other end, where skiing is restricted by coverage or surface issues. Terrain-wise Mt. Baldy compares well with nearly any area its size (800 acres, as big a 99% of eastern areas) but it makes no sense to rate it high overall when it never reaches full operation in 1/3 of seasons due to erratic snowfall.

Nobody raves about Targhee's topography, but it's hard to ignore its massive and consistent snowfall. That was the only day of your trip where an area had below average conditions. I'm in general agreement with your topography criticisms of Bridger and Big Sky, though Challenger and Headwaters also have steeper terrain than anything lift served in the East.

As river points out, these snow reliability issues have to come into play when you're advance booking a trip. With regard to Gpaul, he's from the Dominican Republic and likes "steep groomers," based upon winter trips to Mammoth, Utah and Colorado. He can't be close to Patrick's skill set in terms of adapting to adverse snow conditions. At best he'll see snow conditions like Mammoth in June/July. How many intermediates and beginners do you know who are comfortable in that snow? My son Andrew isn't, as Patrick knows. I'd be less critical of Gpaul's trip if it were a few weeks earlier.

Patrick's true sentiments are reflected in this quote:
If I would be in the midwest, I would probably choose at least 2 flights to the East and 4 each for West and Europe.
If cost were no object, perhaps the most devoted eastern skier on this board would ski 20% of the time in the East.
 
Tony Crocker":2ct166d8 said:
Patrick's true sentiments are reflected in this quote:
If I would be in the midwest, I would probably choose at least 2 flights to the East and 4 each for West and Europe.
If cost were no object, perhaps the most devoted eastern skier on this board would ski 20% of the time in the East.
But also only 40% in the West.

West's geography is much larger than the East as the only real interesting places in the East IMO are all within a day drive (meaning skiing the same day) from Montreal. The same cannot be said of the West.

But I have to agree that the proportion of great areas is also greater in the West.
 
I agree with Tony.. When I book my Western ski trips it's not for powder. If i get it great, if not ,so be it. I go out west because the chance of rain is slim to none. I haven't forgotten the days I have skiied in a Heffty Bag in Vermont. :wink:
 
Admin":18tv3smf said:
I don't disagree with Jim, but for a different reason -- the European snow, when it falls, is of a similar consistency to that which falls in New England, in my experience. It's denser and wetter than Rocky Mountain snow.

This was my point Marc, thanks.

I don't care how high up you go, the consistency of the snow in Europe is wetter than alot of the Western US.
 
I have to agree with Patrick that skiing in the Alps is underutilized by most American skiers. The bar is higher for us in the West in terms of cost and travel distance, but it's still the weak spot in my own experience, and I'm working on plans to correct that some during the next 2 seasons. For someone living in the East, it's not unreasonable at all that destination skiing would be split equally between the Alps and the West.

But we all know that a lot of Americans don't own a passport and stay in their own country for vacations as they assume they will be more comfortable there. Remember that stat about only 6% of interior B.C. skier visits being Americans.

With modern fat and all-mountain ski technology the 10% water content snow of Whistler, Mammoth or presumably the Alps is not as much of a deterrent to powder skiing as before. As Chris C. points out the potential for less competition in Europe's vast offpiste is surely a fair tradeoff for slightly denser snow.

What's within day commute distance from SLC, Reno, Vancouver, Seattle, Denver, SF Bay Area, Portland, Spokane or Calgary is better than what's day commutable from Montreal. And Montreal is the only eastern metro area that is worthy of discussion in this context.

On a related thread http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=1017 the close call debate was between Montreal and L.A. The point of issue being whether Mammoth's superior skiing justified the added cost of staying overnight vs. daytripping.
 
The upcoming Bay Area and L.A. Ski Shows remind me to ask about their counterparts in the East: Boston, NYC, Montreal (I actually went to that one in 1980 but don't remember much), Toronto. Are European ski resorts well represented at these shows? What proportion of floor space vs. the West?
 
I'll take the bait:
I love skiing in the east, most of the eastern skiing I've done has been in Quebec. And it's worth doing the 7+ hours of driving.

That being said, those times when I have enough cash saved, I love heading out west. It's just a totally different experience.

Is one 'better' than the other? No, they can be so radically different that it's not even worth trying to frame it in a question like that.

The real (but much less provocative) question would be: Why do we pick the places and the time to ride the way we do?

My answer to that question would be: Because it's the best option based on current conditions, amount of free time, dispoasble cash and available friends!
 
European ski resorts definitely were not well represented at the Toronto show. I briefly considered a Europe trip this winter until I found out that airfare from Toronto to Europe is twice the price of airfare from Buffalo to SLC.
Living at least an 8 hour drive from the closest ski resort in either Vermont or Quebec means that I can't take advantage of an eastern powder dump. I have had some great ski days in the east but I also have been rained on too often during the Ontario March break(typically the second to third week in Mar.) These days if I book a long range trip to an eastern ski area I try to book it no later then the last week of Feb. or the first week of March. Any time later than that posses an unaccepatble risk of poor weather/conditions for me.
 
The airfare difference might not be so much if you are trying to fly to Aspen, Telluride or Jackson Hole. The Alps are more compact so everything is accessible from the big cities Geneva, Munich, Zurich. Overall costs of Alps vs. West including cheaper lift tickets and some meals included are probably comparable from many eastern cities.

I can't say I'm surprised by the input from Toronto ski show though.

wolfer hit the nail on the head about rain incidence. The daily records I have from Mt. Mansfield since 1982 show rain incidence by month:
Avg. Days Rain
Nov. 3.43
Dec. 1.57
Jan. 1.32
Feb. 1.13
Mar. 2.08
Apr. 4.36
Total 13.89
Remember this data is from 3,900 feet. It will be worse at ski elevations. Another reason Gpaul's proposed trip is not a good idea.
 
wolfer hit the nail on the head about rain incidence. The daily records I have from Mt. Mansfield since 1982 show rain incidence by month

I don't have the stats for to back me up, but it's my impression that the Appalachian Mountain (Townships and New England) do get more precipitations in all forms (rain and snow) than the Quebec City area.

All few years of spring skiing was a good example, we're trying to find a day to ski Mt Washington or Killington in 2005, it rained pretty much every weekend while the skiing on the North side of the St.Lawrence was bright and sunny.

The upcoming Bay Area and L.A. Ski Shows remind me to ask about their counterparts in the East: Boston, NYC, Montreal (I actually went to that one in 1980 but don't remember much), Toronto. Are European ski resorts well represented at these shows? What proportion of floor space vs. the West?

We'll it's my impression that the big ski show (at least around here) of my youth have gone the way of the ski trains.

The Montreal Ski Show was huge back when I was a kid, I was probably at that 1980 show that Tony speaks of. Most major New England ski areas were present, the Townships areas, Quebec City, Laurentians... There were a few booths for Ski areas in the Alps, the Rockies + Travel agencies specialised in ski travel. Warren Miller movie was shown for free on a wide screen.

Years after years the same old stuff until there was a decline in the 80s until the Montreal Ski Show stopped to exist.

There was a few attempt to revive the show into a Sport Show (?) at the Olympic Stadium back in the early 90s, it had everything from skiing to Yoga. The skiing part didn't has much as the good old days. Yes, there was still a the classic ski areas present, but not as much. That show only lasted for a few years.

Now there a new show in Montreal called "J'aime l'hiver" (I like Winter). It looks decent. I just found out that this was the 2e edition.


Introduction to the J'aime l'hiver Show (in French)

Map of the show

List of participants

If you ask Frankontour, he could tell you more as there is a zoneski.com booth at the Show.

As for the Ottawa Ski Show, this has also been going downhill since the first time I went back in 1995. Although I don't recall seeing any specific European area present (generally Travel agencies), most of the participant where locals + a few Laurentians and Tonwships, the Northern NY and Vermont areas. Over the years a few places have stopped showing up: the two big Maine + a few from NH) and t

There is of course the Intrawests (Whistler, Panorama, Sttraton), the RCR (Fernie, Kimberley), the Banff areas and the Okanagan.

Ottawa Ski Show website
 
It's amazing to hear all the whining about ski shows...if they make you unhappy don't go (or take a prozac before you go). Can't comment on Montreal but I go to the Ottawa Ski Show every year (it's free for the past few years) as a matter of convenience...Sure..there aren't all the European resorts (Ottawa is a teeny weeny market for them and many other resorts) but a good selection of US and Cdn resorts..and there are some good offers being made at the Show....if I find something to my liking..great...if not I've invested only an hour or so.....boo hoo......
 
trekmadone":34yz9820 said:
It's amazing to hear all the whining about ski shows...if they make you unhappy don't go (or take a prozac before you go). Can't comment on Montreal but I go to the Ottawa Ski Show every year (it's free for the past few years) as a matter of convenience...Sure..there aren't all the European resorts (Ottawa is a teeny weeny market for them and many other resorts) but a good selection of US and Cdn resorts..and there are some good offers being made at the Show....if I find something to my liking..great...if not I've invested only an hour or so.....boo hoo......

Not that I'm whinning about the show, I'm just making an observation. I'm just giving a perspective from someone that been going to ski shows on and off starting in the early 70s.

Ski shows aren't as important for the ski areas in getting the word out as in the decades past thus the size and the number of ski areas and other represented diminished. Am I surprised? No, just stating a fact and someone might not have realized that these were much bigger before. One of the proof is the disappearence of the Montreal show for a number of years.

Regarding the Ottawa Ski Show. Was I happy in going (yes, it's free after all), I didn't expect anything different. I'm just giving the facts.

Now where we in the West vs East vs Europe discussion? :wink:

BTW, wlecome to the FTO trekmadone.
 
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