Golf Courses and Ski Areas

With the recent demise of ASC and the constant additions to the NELSAP list, I was wondering why we don't see more "lost" golf courses. I have no idea about the money involved, but to build and maintain them must be a huge expense. Why do ski areas go under more often than golf courses? Is it because huge (profitable) real estate developments surrounding a golf club are more acceptable than at a ski resort or because you can generally play golf a good portion of the year whereas the ski season is limited by the season and the availability of snow?

Just like ski areas back east are much more dependent on snowmaking, I can only guess at how much it must cost in water alone to keep golf courses out west from turning back into sand. When I lived in Albuquerque, I used to play at a fantastic championship course (UNM South) that the university built not far from where I lived. Every time I was there, I'd think about what the course would look like if it weren't being blasted nightly by water from the city's steadily diminishing aquifer (it'd basically look like a big sand dune)... and it's like that at most of the courses in the western third of the continent.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it's summer so why not...

jamesdeluxe":14jm8o0l said:

With the recent demise of ASC and the constant additions to the NELSAP list, I was wondering why we don't see more "lost" golf courses. I have no idea about the money involved, but to build and maintain them must be a huge expense. Why do ski areas go under more often than golf courses?

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By no means, I know the answer to this, the last time I played golf was in 1989. But here are some assumptions.

1) Skiing is limited.
a) Hours of operations in the Winter versus Golf in the Summer.
b) Months of the year is also shorter unless you're in place like Mammoth.

2) Topography
You generally need a decent hill to have a ski area. Most ski areas (major or not) are further from the city than Golf courses. The average person has a better access to a golf course than a ski area.

3) Equipments and infrastructures
I would think that the cost of running a ski areas would be greater than running a golf course. Running the lifts in staff+ electricity, Rental shop, grooming, snowmaking. Yes, the grass at a Golf course needs to be maintained, but there are no very extensive lifts. Plus when was the last time you saw a Golf Patrol :wink: pick up someone because this person broke they leg in a sand trap. :lol:

4) Demographic
Population is getting older. As boomers retire, they tend to be prefer sport that are not to physically demanding. Of course, that are people that ski in their 80s, but they are the minority. My mom went downhill skiing once since she retired over 8 years ago (she wanted to ski with her grand-daughter), however she's kept active by playing golf a few times a week + cross-country skis maybe once a week in the Winter time. For her, dowhill skiing was to physically demanding for her legs.

4) Vacations
North Americans generally have limited vacations and takes them in the Summer (except Tony).

5) Climat and weather
There is a greater proportion of the population that doesn't like the cool and snow versus Summer weather.

6) People are lazy. :roll:

jamesdeluxe":5ynu0res said:

Why do ski areas go under more often than golf courses?

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I can't speak to the reliability of either of these sources, but they're illustrative. From http://www.fsu.edu/~fstime/FS-Times/Vol ... sep01.html:

Since 1986, the number of golfers in the United States is up 41 percent and is estimated to be about 28 million. However, it is difficult to separate players from those who practice on golf ranges but don't play. So much so that Tim Finchem, PGA tour commissioner, said recently that participation in golf stands at 35.4 million, when you count the 7.7 million range users.

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Contrast that with this quote from http://www.chalatlaw.com/NEW/articles/s ... ision.html:

There are over 10 million skiers in the United States. {Edmonson, "Skiing's Demographic Future," Ski Area Management p. 62 (January 1996)}

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Now, add to that some factors that Patrick pointed out. Joe Golfer's regular course is probably no more than a few miles from his home. Contrast that with ski areas that Joe Skier has to travel to for a weekend or longer. Add John Q. Public's typical adversity to cold weather, and affinity for a warm-weather vacation, and you start to see the picture.

In the vacation real estate presentation at NASJA Crested Butte, there was some discussion of the ski vs. golf and beach resorts. In recent years many of the latter properties have been purchased by speculators, and there can certainly be financial carnage on the scale of ASC or worse.

Ski resort vacation properties are much more likely to be bought by people who will actually use them, and there is less froth in the market.

But the points of the above posts are valid. When the golf or beach development goes sour, the developer goes bankrupt like ASC, but someone else comes in and buys it on the cheap. Chances are the resort/course will survive and maybe be successful when priced right.

We last saw this when the Japanese were buying/developing everything in sight in the late 1980's. Mainly Hawaii beach resorts for which they needed flush Japanese tourists to pay $600/night to cover lavish construction costs. One of these, the Grand Wailea, had a $1.5 million water elevator that our kids loved. We were spending $200/night to stay there in 2000 under new management. In the same time frame the Japanese bought Pebble Beach. It was and remains an icon in the golf world, but the Japanese lost a bundle on it.

I'm not a golfer either, but I suspect the experiential difference between someone's home golf course and Pebble Beach is much less than the difference between an Ottawa molehill (sorry, Patrick) and Vail or Whistler. When golfers become more affluent, they are more likely to join a nice country club close to home and play there most of the time, instead of running all over the world like some of us addicted skiers. The Yellowstone Club is really the only skiing analogy to what is a very common model in golf.

Plus when was the last time you saw a Golf Patrol pick up someone because this person broke they leg in a sand trap.

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When i was young and crazy :lol: .. My buddy and I rolled a cart down a steep fairway and got escorted off the course. :shock: The grass was wet we had no idea that the brakes won't hold 8)
I guess that's equal to getting your ticket pulled.

When golfers become more affluent, they are more likely to join a nice country club close to home and play there most of the time, instead of running all over the world like some of us addicted skiers.

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This may be true of Southern California golfers but affluent golfers from the New England area need to get their fix during the winter and are likely to book a weekend flight to sunny Florida for a weekend on the links. On my last business trip to Florida, there were more people checking golf bags than than were kids on the flight. I couldn't believe how big the New England to Florida golf market was until I was on a plane half full of golfers.

Perhaps in a percentage, golfers are less likely to jet around the country to play at the best resorts. But as a total number, as previously noted, golfers far out weight skiers and I think a case could be made that golfers make up a substantially higher percentage of air fair and over nights. Especially considering golf is a big activity and every state whereas skiing is only really popular in about one quarter plus golf areas are open somewhere in the country every month of the year but ski areas generally only operate for six months or less in the United States and the average skier is less likely to travel Down Under during the Summer than across the country in the Winter.

Has a ski area gone NELSAP that had a Golf Course? If so, did the Golf Course survive separately? I can not recall any golf courses going lost with ski areas, it seems like an area with a golf course has a little more stability, perhaps due to four season income? Then again, I have to wonder how many more golf courses can be built at ski areas in New England before the saturation point is hit. I think people are much more likely to patronize a local country club with membership than drive three hours to a mountain resort except on vacation. So there would be fewer vacationing dollars for more golf courses as we see more links built. I am curious to see where this is all heading. I am especially curious to see how successful Jay Peak is where their course.

When I fly to Calgary I see quite a few golf bags from people taking their winter vacations in the opposite direction.

It would be interesting to find out (probably from someone in the airlines) whether more golf or ski equipment travels by air in the winter.