Recently I have been discussing with my skiing friends the effect of the surge in the popularity of snowboarding vs. skiing among young folks and its potential impact on the future of the industry. In the spirit of full disclosure and transparency, I must first admit that I have never snowboarded, and at times find the smell of cigarettes in the lift line and navigating around snowboarders sitting in the middle of a trail a bit annoying. That said, I have also noticed that a majority of the snowboarders in the East stay in the "terrain parks" leaving the rest of the mountain open to skiers. I have also noticed that a majority of the "riders" also fall within the demographic of teens to 25 yr olds (just my observation) and have taken on a kind of "urban gangsta" persona. Again, not that this is offensive to me, I believe that the real problem with the impact of snowboarding on the future of the industry is more in the demographics than the "snow board culture", although I believe that one has caused the other. I do not see too many adults skateboarding in the local parking lots. I believe that this is partly because of our cultural perception that skateboarding is a juvenile activity. Again, my opinion. I am afraid that the "urban gangsta" rebellious culture of snowboarding, as promoted by the industry through fashion and snowboard graphics, does not promote snowboarding as a life-long recreational adult activity, but one connected to primarily to youth. Lets face it, not too many of us middle-agers want to have our kids or neighbors see us riding on a snowboard emblazed with the SEX PISTOLS and pants with the crotch hanging down to our knees (although the older I get the higher I wear my waistband). Please let me know if anyone has seen any official data on the number of riders that have continued snowboarding as adults. I hope I’m wrong.
Future of Ski Industry????
- Thread starter Lifty@50
- Start date
EMSC
Well-known member
What the heck, I'll bite. Well, you could open a lot of cans of worms in such a post/discussion.
I primarily ski but also snowboard a few times a season - and I'm most definitely past 25... I also coach ski racing and can tell you that for a while kids interested in skiing were way down; but starting about 5 years ago they have come way back up (to where it's tough to handle the demand). Not sure if it is a 'backlash' or the back swing of a pendulum or etc... but skiing is definitely not dying from my view point.
Plus, in my experience, the whole skiing vs snowboard numbers are surprisingly skewed by the specific resort you are at. Some are hugely snowboarding centric and others you will see very few even 20+ years after the explosion in growth. My 'home' hill has almost as many telemarkers as snowboarders (or at least that perception when out on the hill...).
Finally, I don't have literal #'s in front of me, but last study I saw said growth in snowboarding was slowing significantly and looked like it would hit around 30% or so of national/overall visits... then probably bounce around that % after that. But that was a couple years ago so could be off...
I primarily ski but also snowboard a few times a season - and I'm most definitely past 25... I also coach ski racing and can tell you that for a while kids interested in skiing were way down; but starting about 5 years ago they have come way back up (to where it's tough to handle the demand). Not sure if it is a 'backlash' or the back swing of a pendulum or etc... but skiing is definitely not dying from my view point.
Plus, in my experience, the whole skiing vs snowboard numbers are surprisingly skewed by the specific resort you are at. Some are hugely snowboarding centric and others you will see very few even 20+ years after the explosion in growth. My 'home' hill has almost as many telemarkers as snowboarders (or at least that perception when out on the hill...).
Finally, I don't have literal #'s in front of me, but last study I saw said growth in snowboarding was slowing significantly and looked like it would hit around 30% or so of national/overall visits... then probably bounce around that % after that. But that was a couple years ago so could be off...
lookn4powder
New member
Lifty@50":iahx423p said:
This evening during a discussion with the equipment buyer for a ski shop buyer mentioned this trend and pointed out that the fraction of snowboarders on the slopes has flattened in recent years. But he worries about the future of this industry because it invests little effort in making skiing accessible to families and new ethnic groups. The problems in the skiing industry are multiple. For example, most equipment salesmen are young white men (expert skiers all) who cannot identify with the needs of novice skiers, aging skiers, or minorities--particularly the largest minority, women.
Most boot manufacturers do not manufacture boots for small feet (women, oriental men), narrow feet (15-20% of us), or extra wide feet (various minorities). Whenever a customer cannot find a *comfortable* boot, the excluded family member will sway the entire family to another activity--the beach, Disney World, etc.
Other problems are present in the industry, but the poor service to fitting ski equipment is hurting the industry. Snowboarding benefits somewhat because the boot fitting is not as demanding.
Lifty@50":iahx423p said:
Well, I used to wear it high...but now I wear my waistband lower so my belly can flop over it...
Jeff
Thanks for jumping into the shark tank guys. It was out there for a few days with no replies. I'm glad to hear that the balance between skier vs. riders is evening out again. I do think that the industry's recent move to freesking and twin-tips has helps this along. My kids can choose whatever they want to do (ski, ride, freeheel!)and I will support it. Just no gansta wear or cigarettes, please.
I could go a few different directions with this. My brother, 27, switched to snowboarding about 8 years ago and hasn't gone back. My father-in-law, 50+, switched to snowboarding about 12-15 years ago and hasn't gone back. I own both a snowboard and skis, but mainly ski, i just enjoy it more, not a image thing. Somedays i just feel like riding sideways and dragging my knuckles through the snow.
Also, snowboarding is cheaper and simpler to get into than skiing. You can probably still get a board, bindings and boot package for under $250. I think my brother's first package was $199. It was cheap stuff but it worked. And you don't have to pay someone to put your bindings on as long as you know how to use a screwdriver. That makes it much easier for those who don't know much about the sport to get into it.
Also, snowboarding is cheaper and simpler to get into than skiing. You can probably still get a board, bindings and boot package for under $250. I think my brother's first package was $199. It was cheap stuff but it worked. And you don't have to pay someone to put your bindings on as long as you know how to use a screwdriver. That makes it much easier for those who don't know much about the sport to get into it.
NateidOpf
New member
Over here in Europe skiing still dominates the scene. The snowboarders I do see mostly seem to be people just getting in to snowsports, but I have seen some boarders that absolutely rip.
Over in Japan when I was there, I'd say 80% of those on the slopes were snowboarders. The people in Japan really seem to latch on to whatever is new and hip and snowboarding was definitely in fashion at the time (and probably still is). I didn't have a problem with most of them, it was the ones who also latched on to the supposed 'snowboarder attitude' that really grated me.
In college, I was the only skier amongst my group of friends so I have a lot of respect for what boarders can do. I also laugh at what they can't do - like get through flat spots easily to access good stashes in the backcountry
Overall, I really think that snowboarding gave the dying ski industry a huge boost and was good for the sport. I'm not sure what the future holds and it really doesn't concern me too much. I'll just keep on keeping on with what I do and let others be concerned about themselves.
I do think one caveat should be added to the back of all lift tickets, however. "If you happen upon a group of snowboarders sitting on their arses in the middle of a run, especially if they are below a roll in the terrain, you have the right to smack them upside the head with your pole" :twisted:
Has anyone seen this yet? Now, this does piss me off. Burton's "Power to the Poachers..." campaign
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Over in Japan when I was there, I'd say 80% of those on the slopes were snowboarders. The people in Japan really seem to latch on to whatever is new and hip and snowboarding was definitely in fashion at the time (and probably still is). I didn't have a problem with most of them, it was the ones who also latched on to the supposed 'snowboarder attitude' that really grated me.
In college, I was the only skier amongst my group of friends so I have a lot of respect for what boarders can do. I also laugh at what they can't do - like get through flat spots easily to access good stashes in the backcountry
Overall, I really think that snowboarding gave the dying ski industry a huge boost and was good for the sport. I'm not sure what the future holds and it really doesn't concern me too much. I'll just keep on keeping on with what I do and let others be concerned about themselves.I do think one caveat should be added to the back of all lift tickets, however. "If you happen upon a group of snowboarders sitting on their arses in the middle of a run, especially if they are below a roll in the terrain, you have the right to smack them upside the head with your pole" :twisted:
Has anyone seen this yet? Now, this does piss me off. Burton's "Power to the Poachers..." campaign
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lookn4powder
New member
NateidOpf":wda5gbp7 said:
Yes, the industry likes to inflect wounds on itself. This is just another example.
Jeff
boardsreallybl0w
New member
I personally don't care if the ski industry would suffer the loss of board revenue. But it is true that boarding has improved the industries cash flow
One can only hope that as snowboarders mature their riding habits and observation of snow edicite improves. Jack Burton's message only perpetuates the "thug image". No help at all
One can only hope that as snowboarders mature their riding habits and observation of snow edicite improves. Jack Burton's message only perpetuates the "thug image". No help at all
My impression is that snowboarding is levelling off around 30%. But it's 40+% on the West Coast.
At Mt. Baker the attraction is the insane amount of snow, which averages 13% water content, and was much more enjoyable for snowboarders than skiers back in the formative days of the sport in the late 1980's and early 1990's. I skied with marketing director Gwen Howat, and she still prefers snowboarding on the really big powder days at Baker (probably a couple of times a week). So Mt. Baker became a snowboard Mecca for its own reasons, and given the nature of the area (both snow and terrain), the average skill level is very high. The main problem according to Gwen is keeping people out of the sidecountry when it's not safe.
Very true. And my recent visit to Mt. Baker reinforces the varied profiles of snowboarders. SoCal totally fits the urban stereotype, with most riders coming from surfing and/or skateboarding, average skills quite low and much concentration on the park scene.
At Mt. Baker the attraction is the insane amount of snow, which averages 13% water content, and was much more enjoyable for snowboarders than skiers back in the formative days of the sport in the late 1980's and early 1990's. I skied with marketing director Gwen Howat, and she still prefers snowboarding on the really big powder days at Baker (probably a couple of times a week). So Mt. Baker became a snowboard Mecca for its own reasons, and given the nature of the area (both snow and terrain), the average skill level is very high. The main problem according to Gwen is keeping people out of the sidecountry when it's not safe.
Well
Just my 2 cents
Do not worry about snowboarders.
The future of snow sports is neather skis or snowboarders
its ski BMX, take a look at the videos at the link below and
see the furture. ( I am a skier that has no interest in ski biking )
just my view of the future.
http://www.lenzsport.com/SkiBikes.html
Just my 2 cents
Do not worry about snowboarders.
The future of snow sports is neather skis or snowboarders
its ski BMX, take a look at the videos at the link below and
see the furture. ( I am a skier that has no interest in ski biking )
just my view of the future.
http://www.lenzsport.com/SkiBikes.html
CO_knuckle_dragger
New member
Not always true. I switched from snowboarding to skiing after I couldn't get boots to fit without pain. If you get into really high performace free-riding you will more than likely find snowboard boots to be terribly inadequate.
I spent a few hundred dollars trying to get my snowboard boots to fit and eventually just bought telemark boots (and skis). I came to the conclusion that sliding down the hill on the outside edge of your left foot is not a good idea.
just my .02
I think one of the biggest problems in the skier vs. snowboarder debate is ignorance.
Comments like "If you happen upon a group of snowboarders sitting on their arses in the middle of a run, especially if they are below a roll in the terrain, you have the right to smack them upside the head with your pole" are evidence enough. Go to any resort anywhere in the world and you'll see MANY MORE skiers standing around leaning on their poles in inappropriate places - and that's the SAME THING! When skiers stop/rest/wait they stand up - when boarders stop /rest/wait they sit down, it's the nature of the equipment. Failing to realise this is ignorant.
Objections to Burton's poaching campaign demonstrate support for bigotry and discrimination. The campaign advocated non-violent protest against long-standing prejudices marring the ski industry. It worked well. Failing to realise this is ignorant.
Many older skiers don't really have an issue with snowboarding per se, they actually have a problem with (the stereotypes they form of the) people who ride them - people who for whatever reason (age, socio-economic background etc.) they simply don't understand. Failing to realise this is ignorant.
Comments like "If you happen upon a group of snowboarders sitting on their arses in the middle of a run, especially if they are below a roll in the terrain, you have the right to smack them upside the head with your pole" are evidence enough. Go to any resort anywhere in the world and you'll see MANY MORE skiers standing around leaning on their poles in inappropriate places - and that's the SAME THING! When skiers stop/rest/wait they stand up - when boarders stop /rest/wait they sit down, it's the nature of the equipment. Failing to realise this is ignorant.
Objections to Burton's poaching campaign demonstrate support for bigotry and discrimination. The campaign advocated non-violent protest against long-standing prejudices marring the ski industry. It worked well. Failing to realise this is ignorant.
Many older skiers don't really have an issue with snowboarding per se, they actually have a problem with (the stereotypes they form of the) people who ride them - people who for whatever reason (age, socio-economic background etc.) they simply don't understand. Failing to realise this is ignorant.
It's freeriding, not "free-riding" - and there's plenty of really good supportive freeriding boots available.CO_knuckle_dragger":2rr4fy4m said:
And just for the benefit of skiers who may not be aware of this (some clearly aren't) - for over 20 years the focus of freeriding has been on utilising the random flow of natural terrain (all-mountain, off-piste or backcountry), and NOT park/pipe as some seriously ill-informed people seem to believe.
chucky":qqdbm0iv said:
So, how precisely does one's refusal to be manipulated by a Burton marketing campaign (and be honest with yourself, that's all it is after all) make one discriminatory and bigoted? None of the three remaining U.S. ski areas that continue to ban snowboarding prohibit anyone from skiing there. They simply must do it on skis. I never knew that a hunk of fiberglass, metal and wood was a protected class of citizen. :roll:
"Failing to realise this is ignorant."
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Did anyone read TRs from snowboarders at Taos after they lifted the ban?
I'm wondering whether the rap about Taos -- that boarders would be unhappy dealing with the terrain layout (same thing that's said about Alta) -- turned out to be true or not.
I'm wondering whether the rap about Taos -- that boarders would be unhappy dealing with the terrain layout (same thing that's said about Alta) -- turned out to be true or not.
icelanticskier
New member
well, ok, my take. having been a snowboarder back in the day when the only way to access a ski resort out here was to get certified by a guy or gal that was on board that most wouldn't refer to as a snowboard but, was still cooler than mine, was time when if by chance i wasn't the only snowboarder at loon on a weekend then i'd be friends with whomever happened to be there for life. board technology soon changed rapidly and beyond skis and they actually could be carved with no effort leaving little slices in the snow for pivot skiddin 2 plankers to fall into on atomic arc with ess vars and no side cut. snowboarding looked fun and skiing looked, well, like skiing. snowboarders from that era weren't into the fashion of it but, the carving of it. snowboarders knew how to ride well and make good turns and skiers were jelous of it. then one day i attended the on snow demo at stratton in 94' and i walked into the bar full of snowboarders and i thought i was in the first bar scene in star wars. tats, peircings, baggy clothing, pink hair and general whatever, just ride, put the obermeyer or descente jacket back on and learn to turn before you burn. right then and there i knew that snowboarding for the future for the masses wouldn't be so much about the carve anymore, but about baggy pant wearing, snow scaping, flail to a jump, hit the jump and flail some more. now i know this may sound harsh, but there's alot of truth here. since skis have gotten wider with more sidecut and do carve, no skidding with ease, skiing has become new and fun again and in am one of those that used to snowboard, well, not really, now i slide on two snowboards, go icelantic. back in the 90's i was in the lift line at whistler and i had a pair of the original mountain surfs on and all of these kids were checkin out my skis, all boarders and i looked at em and asked, "what's better than a snowboard? TWO!" i said as i pointed down at my skis-they loved it. so now skis are fun, snowboarders flail and look funny and that's that. i still have my board for very special occasions or when i need to bring the beat back.
rog
rog
Admin":3bi8w146 said:
Firstly, if you'd read my post properly you'd see I've already addressed your query. :roll:
Secondly, to dismiss the protest as nothing more than a "Burton marketing campaign" is to prove my point. =D>
And here's a news flash for ya - ignorant bigots don't always know they're ignorant bigots.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
jamesdeluxe":hgll899h said:
Chucky? ^^^