How Are Current Economic Conditions Affecting Your Skiing?

My day count will be similar to recent seasons, thanks to better than normal early snow in Mammoth and SoCal. But fewer exotic trips, so overall cost in 2008-09 will be lower.

i am fortunate in that, my skiing has suffered due to family issues not economic. on the flip side i am unfortunate that i had these issues.. life goes on

Tony Crocker":vrlczues said:

fewer exotic trips

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Ah, the sense of entitlement... Chamonix and your interior BC luxury trip don't count?

I've been to interior B.C every year but one since 1997. Cat/heli is not cheap, but resort skiing up there is still well below average cost by U.S. standards.

I've skied at least one trip outside North America each season since 2004. But not this year, mainly due to slightly reduced vacation time. So I put off a prospective Extremely Canadian trip, which would have been the most expensive week of this season. Mammoth is having a long enough season on both ends to offset fewer ski vacation days.

My ski days will be down from an average of 30 to maybe 20-22. I hope to be able to ski at least one more time this year. It doesn't look like a huge drop, but I had 15 days by end of December. In a different year, I'd be going for 40 with that kind of start. We've had some health stuff but it's really the economy. I just can't disappear on Thursday afternoons with our company on the edge. Again this week I'm traveling on business leaving Sunday so no skiing this week.

I went from Jan 3 to Feb 20 without skiing. I haven't missed a period that long since 1988. Turning 50 this year it had been thinking I might come to see the Utards as a bday present to myself. While the cost is truly manageable with some very generous lodging offers, it would have to be planned in advance. This year flexibility has to be used for new biz/sales, unfortunately not for powder maximization.

As everyone knows Michigan is really taking this current economic condition right on the nose.
It was very evident to me in Northern Michigan, where skiers and snowmobiles go from he metro Detroit area and Indiana/Ohio.
Talking with people that work at Boyne and local restaurants and casinos are all saying the same thing, very bad year.
I know more people out of a job than in one at the moment, not very fun times in Michigan right now.

While reading Harvey's excellent piece about building a ski cabin, I was wondering about his underlying premise for going that route:
http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/11/bu ... cabin.html

When you add everything up, do you really save money by basing yourself out of a cabin/vacation house/condo and more or less limiting your regional skiing to one area? Obviously, you have less logistical headaches because there's always a place to sleep and you don't have to go through the accommodations-booking process. I've weighed the pros and cons and decided to stay a free agent, but I'm curious what other people have to say, particularly Geoff, joegm, and any others with this type of situation. I know that Geoff has a longstanding circle of friends at Killington that can't be monetized, but he can still run the numbers.

Tony, if there is a thread that already covers this question, feel free to move this post there.

BTW, for anyone interested in an ADK-focused blog, Harvey has a lot of interesting content. Not sure why it took me so long to put it in my favorites list.

I'm sure everyone knows where I come down on the above topic. Philosophically it makes no sense whatsoever for variety junkies like Patrick or myself. In most cases i question whether it makes economic sense either. Harvey is likely an exception since he got his property dirt cheap. In general I think only the people who time the local real estate market and get in when it's depressed come out ahead vs. the rest of us conventional vacationers. We had a part interest in a small (600sf) condo in Laguna Beach from 1988-1990. The partners eventually couldn't get along so we had to sell. The property appreciated from 130K to 180K in that time, clearly not something you can count on. The improvements, maintenance and expenses exactly offset that appreciation, so we basically had free use for the 2 years. Sounds good, but with normal gradual appreciation over the long term I don't see this as a great way to make money. No question we enjoyed our time there, as kids were very young (4 and new baby) and the convenience of your own place counts for a lot with little kids. But I'm sure glad we didn't have that obligation once Adam got older, became an avid skier and we started to travel more.

Geoff has a longstanding circle of friends at Killington that can't be monetized

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That's what Adam and I have at the Iron Blosam, but it cost $8,500 upfront + a little less than $500 per year for our week.

I have no idea what kind of deal Geoff got originally, but when he got in Killington was the premier area of the East in many respects. It's had a turbulent past decade but still has to be considered in the top tier of the region overall. joegm's situation, on the other hand, has never made sense to me but we've all :dead horse: here. Joe has very specific ski priorities, and if you're picky in the East you HAVE to be flexible or you're going to be frustrated much of the time. Joe's reports reflect that. Not that many of us can control our time/job/family flexibility, but anyone can choose to be flexible in area choice vs. tying yourself to one place.

jamesdeluxe":2qk3mtsb said:

While reading Harvey's excellent piece about building a ski cabin, I was wondering about his underlying premise for going that route: http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/11/bu ... cabin.html

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James thanks for the props.

jamesdeluxe":2qk3mtsb said:

When you add everything up, do you really save money by basing yourself out of a cabin/vacation house/condo and more or less limiting your regional skiing to one area?

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Your question has me thinking that MAYBE my situation is very specific to the Adks and Gore. And would not work elsewhere. Some factors to consider:

-Land could be a lot cheaper in the Adks than in VT or NH. We got five pretty nice acres for about $15k in the late 90s. While it would be a lot more now, I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of proximity to a mountain in VT would still cost more on that side of the lake.

-The cost of a season pass relative to the cost of a day ticket seems to be lower at Gore than other mountains. While the day ticket is $72 (?) the unrestricted season pass is $690. Compared to some Vt mountains the day ticket is not much cheaper, but the season pass is a lot cheaper.

- Remember there is a big difference between Harv's unibomber cabin and a house or condo.

I tried pretty hard to find the analysis I did of our annual costs in an FTO thread, but as usual my lame "advanced search" abilities turned up nada. As I recall our costs for the season (it was either 06/07 or 07/08) were around $6 - 7000. I think that included lift tickets/daycare, gas, tolls, mortgage, taxes and plowing. On a 30+ day season that works out to $200+ a day which seems pretty cheap for three.

Like any "bulk" purchase you've got to get your days in or it doesn't pay. Last year I only skied 19 days so cost/day was higher.

jamesdeluxe":2qk3mtsb said:

Obviously, you have less logistical headaches because there's always a place to sleep and you don't have to go through the accommodations-booking process.

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In some ways there are less logistical headaches and in someways there are more. It does seem to get easier over time....like....I've now figured out the one spot where the pipes would freeze and solved that problem.

jamesdeluxe":2qk3mtsb said:

I know that Geoff has a longstanding circle of friends at Killington that can't be monetized, but he can still run the numbers.

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Our situation is a little like Geoff's in that we have relationships that tie us to the area. That's inevitable if you consistently visit the same place over and over.

jamesdeluxe":2qk3mtsb said:

I've weighed the pros and cons and decided to stay a free agent, but I'm curious what other people have to say, particularly Geoff, joegm, and any others with this type of situation.

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I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority, not you and Patrick and Tony.

While this thread is a season old, I will still respond to the OP regarding this season. 09-00 my goal is to have my biggest season to date. My goal is 60 days with my previous high of only 51 days. I plan to tour a TON more in my new Radiums due to improved downhill performance and increased desire to do local exploring. Not having a season pass also frees me to go where ever I want instead of feeling like I need to go to Jay or not go skiing if it is not worth the drive.

These past two seasons have been pretty disappointing and this year I really resolved to "go for it" even if it means spending more money than if I had a season pass. I have done the economy thing before, tracked costs, calculated out the per day total ski cost including gas, etc. Life is too short. I have my discounts lined up and anticipate average lift ticket costs in the realm of $40 for the entire season. If I pay full price a few times to follow a storm and ski where and when I want to ski, so be it. I have use it or lose it vacation time stored up and have cleared my February from the normal work routine with the catch that mid-week vaca days this month and next will be in short supply. Fair trade.

Interesting discussion on the cabin in the woods. If I didn't move up here and stayed in MA, I was definitely planning on purchasing a cheap shack somewhere in the north country.

As I recall our costs for the season (it was either 06/07 or 07/08) were around $6 - 7000.

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I audited a few ski seasons during the "family years," which for me were late 1980's through 1995-96. $5,000 - $6,000 was typical. This includes equipment as well as all travel costs and an average of 55 ski days per season distributed among 4 family members. My 23.5 average personal ski days were distributed 5.1 SoCal local, 11.4 2-4 day drive trips and 7.0 days fly-to destinations. The latter was typically Adam's late March/early April spring break.

Allowing for 20 years inflation those expenses are more than Harvey's, but not by all that much. I think there's a big quality difference, but being based in LA metro vs. NYC accounts for much of that. Nonetheless I think being able to ski a week in a nice destination resort every year in addition to 16 days of varied drive-to skiing for the same order of magnitude cost as a fairly spartan vacation homeowner skiing a similar number of days illustrates the choice well. You really have to value the convenience or long term friendship aspects very highly to choose the latter course IMHO. Or maybe arrange a Geoff-type situation where being the homeowner lets you push the ski day count way up for little marginal cost. There are some Mammoth Forum people like that, and if they got in during the early 1990's real estate downturn they are skiing quite economically.

the past 3 seasons in the east have provided excellent skiing on a whole. since they provided such good skiing i made sure to put in a lot of days, exactly 300 days over the 3 seasons. 2006/2007, 76 days while living on the cape. 2007/2008, 105 days while living in portsmouth. 2008/2009, 119 days while living in portsmouth. if this season isn't as good, i won't ski as much. pure and simple. with surfing and mountain biking available, i wouldn't be surprised to drop to a 50+ day season if our winter is sub-par. i just bought a rental property on the cape and it is fully rented (both houses), so with the monthly profit i can now just work for gas and food. no more rent or utilities for me. i pay an average of 10 bux to ski at various resorts up north and have a couch to crash on in almost every town in me/nh/vt where i ski. i've always prided myself on not so much having to make more money to live well, but to rather dial $hit in to pay less. i may be picking up another rental property in feb march, and if i buy a 3rd, i may not work anymore, or, at least never again in winter. lifty at 50? $hit, lifty at 40 sounds better to me. real estate.....love this economy.

winter will show up sometime, maybe mid december.

rog

It's useful to those of us with more conventional lifestyles to get ideas from those like icelantic who "think outside the box." It helps to make connections at the places you ski regularly. This goes on a lot with SoCal skiers at Mammoth. I wasn't getting free lodging up there, but I had a 20 year connection through about 2003 paying ~3/4 of market rate direct from the owner, often with the flexibility of booking on short notice. Garry Klassen has a better Mammoth connection pricewise but availability is not as good.

icelanticskier":2uwpo0ml said:

i just bought a rental property on the cape and it is fully rented (both houses), so with the monthly profit i can now just work for gas and food. no more rent or utilities for me. i pay an average of 10 bux to ski at various resorts up north and have a couch to crash on in almost every town in me/nh/vt where i ski. i've always prided myself on not so much having to make more money to live well, but to rather dial $hit in to pay less. i may be picking up another rental property in feb march, and if i buy a 3rd, i may not work anymore, or, at least never again in winter. lifty at 50? $hit, lifty at 40 sounds better to me.

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Confucius say, "self praise, no praise."

That's what Adam and I have at the Iron Blosam, but it cost $8,500 upfront + a little less than $500 per year for our week.

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doesn't owning a timeshare go against your philosophy of waiting to the last possible moment before making plans..

jamesdeluxe":19j5vivf said:

icelanticskier":19j5vivf said:

i just bought a rental property on the cape and it is fully rented (both houses), so with the monthly profit i can now just work for gas and food. no more rent or utilities for me. i pay an average of 10 bux to ski at various resorts up north and have a couch to crash on in almost every town in me/nh/vt where i ski. i've always prided myself on not so much having to make more money to live well, but to rather dial $hit in to pay less. i may be picking up another rental property in feb march, and if i buy a 3rd, i may not work anymore, or, at least never again in winter. lifty at 50? $hit, lifty at 40 sounds better to me.

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Confucius say, "self praise, no praise."

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icelantic say, "confucius is dead."

rog

doesn't owning a timeshare go against your philosophy of waiting to the last possible moment before making plans..

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1) It's at my favorite mountain anywhere
2) Nice group of friends, both in my generation and Adam's
3) Probability of inadequate snow 2nd week of March is essentially zero; even in 1977 there was enough by then.
4) Skiing in LCC does not suck even if it hasn't snowed in awhile, contrary to the impression you might get from the jaded locals.

When I'm retired Utah will be within striking distance of short notice trips as well.

My other annual trip to Canada has also been booked well in advance. And the Chatter Creek reservation has been made nearly a year ahead. Depending on how this year's trip goes, I may change the latter. This will be my 4th year at Chatter and my favorable impression has not diminished in any way. But the combination of competition among cat/heli operators and the economy may have made the "reserve-a-year-ahead" requirement no longer necessary. Our subgroup at Chatter lost 3/4 of its repeat customers this year.

I doubt I'll ski as much this year as last and my midweek days are going to be limited to an hour or two. I doubt I'll get 125 days. This job thing really cramps my style.

Geoff":2u66r84s said:

This job thing really cramps my style.

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Or re-stated: This job thing ends up becoming my style. You'll still ski more than ~98% of industry insiders; based on feedback over the years from ski industry folks.

You'll still ski more than ~98% of industry insiders; based on feedback over the years from ski industry folks.

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Any ballpark estimates of how much that is? I'm sure there's a wide distribution, depending upon the nature of one's job.