I might be in financial trouble...kid wants to race

Patrick

Active member
I've posted this thread elsewhere a few days ago, in part because I didn't want to hear some negatives comments right off from the start. I know some of you find ski racing boring and don't see the point.

If some of you have been reading some of my post from last season, you would know that my soon-to-be 13 years old daughter aka SteepMomo wanted to try out ski racing last season. We did the Intro to Nancy Greene level competition at a local hill in Ottawa (200m) only 30km away from downtown. You could choose only one day a week plus 4 races. I was cool with that (financial and left us/me time to ski somewhere more interesting).

Her coaches last year mentioned that she should be racing more competitively

She wants to try it at the next level. Her coaches want her. I know, buy a place in Vermont or move elsewhere and have her race from a club there, but that isn't going to happen. Instead of one day this year, it's 2 days, Holidays, etc. Race across the region and potential the province. Fun choice, right? If I say no, I'm being selfish. I want to encourage her and she has it in her. How long and many years it would last?

The only problem I see, is that she is moving from fun race skiing into some serious stuff due to her age. The fact that she would be the youngest (and his small for her age) would be pretty big step for her. K2 is 13-14 years old I believe. Her younger wants to try the Nancy Greene level, but she would be at the intro level, so races and girls at different hill on some days.

Potential or perception of negatives:

First for the selfishness ...

Cost $$$$ Cost in equipment and race program. We are talking probably around $1,500 in pass/program/races alone for one daughter. Beside the registration, passes and races. What does she need at that level? Probably needs two pairs of skis? Skinsuit? Guards? You don't need anything, however there is a difference between what I think she needs and what the club says she needs.

Time spent at a local hill or neighbouring hills (ie. not big mountains). Every weekend, Holidays...

We're a one car family and my wife isn't going to be the one driving our daughter at the hill at 8am at -25c. So I'll be skiing vertically challenged hiils.

Then there are concerns about her...

If I understand correctly, she would be racing K2 this season. She will be turning 13 in mid-October and she is the smallest in her school, generally as small as the youngest one year younger. Although she's a pretty good skier (in case I'm biased, her coach also said so - I was called a Rockstar when she was ripping at Mammoth ), I'm wondering about some psychological factor and possible discouragement. She has had in the past, a complex of being so much smaller than her classmates. She mentioned that she wanted to race K2, but it's a big step.

The amount of skiing and races. I believe I heard the number of races was 12. I'm also concern that this might be too much. Too much for her AND for me. I've always believe in the more free skiing (not necessarily at the small locals) the better. I've seen so many racers that raced from a young age to University. A good number of them were burned out and couldn't ski if it wasn't for gates and had little enjoyment in the sport. Although I started skiing at 3-4 (she started at 2), I've never really raced until reaches and had a long career in university. lol.

The selfish part of me will say that I'll be stuck skiing local hills more than ever, oh well. The ideal part is to get her part of a race program at a real mountain, but that isn't going to happen. That's life.

Help... that is all!!!
 
Patrick":18lmkfgk said:
I didn't want to hear some negatives comments right off from the start.
I wonder who Patrick had in mind. :lol: Nonetheless these are serious questions and deserve constructive answers.

Patrick":18lmkfgk said:
I know some of you find ski racing boring and don't see the point.
Well, that's a personal viewpoint. But in my case it comes from someone who didn't ski seriously until age 26 or so and was crappy at all sports as a kid. Enough people say it's the best way to really elevate your skills and I have no qualification to disagree with that. Patrick himself is a good example, as anyone who has skied with him can tell you.

Patrick":18lmkfgk said:
Time spent at a local hill or neighbouring hills (ie. not big mountains). Every weekend, Holidays...
Of course. At her skill level, racing is the only way she'll get much challenge at the places she has usually been skiing. That's why we get lots of racers out of the Midwest.

Patrick":18lmkfgk said:
I've always believe in the more free skiing (not necessarily at the small locals) the better. I've seen so many racers that raced from a young age to University. A good number of them were burned out and couldn't ski if it wasn't for gates and had little enjoyment in the sport. Although I started skiing at 3-4 (she started at 2), I've never really raced until reaches and had a long career in university. lol.
This is the key question in my mind. Does she have to race seriously now to be competitive in high school or college? I wouldn't have a clue myself, but Patrick's own experience as stated above implies not necessarily. My vote would be that she is old enough to get more travel and skiing big mountains now. Once she's in high school academics, social events etc. keep kids more tied to home, so then the racing makes more sense.

Patrick":18lmkfgk said:
We're a one car family and my wife isn't going to be the one driving our daughter at the hill at 8am at -25c. So I'll be skiing vertically challenged hills.
Now I'll make my one :brick: . Morgane has 2 parents and they should share in the sacrifices to make this possible. It's not just ski racing. As kids get older their extracurricular activities inevitably result in more logistics demands. As the one who is always pushing him to make western trips, I'll say in this case that's not the most economical way for Patrick to maintain ski quality. The best way, and it will also reduce other "kitchen" conflicts, is to get a cheap second ski vehicle. So then Patrick can score the best of eastern skiing on short notice without stranding a wife and kids at home with no car. If I were in Patrick's shoes, I'd want the second car as a condition for moving forward with the race plan.

EMSC should weigh in here, as he seems to have a lot of experience in race programs.
 
Tony Crocker":2dqxakmq said:
EMSC should weigh in here, as he seems to have a lot of experience in race programs.

I will. Have a super busy job life right now and commitments tonight. Maybe Fri or over the weekend.
 
Tony Crocker":1ian6zdt said:
Patrick":1ian6zdt said:
I didn't want to hear some negatives comments right off from the start.
I wonder who Patrick had in mind. :lol: Nonetheless these are serious questions and deserve constructive answers.

I also wanted a greater audiences with a less than ski racing background. I didn't post the same question on Epic, but tested it out on TGR.


Tony Crocker":1ian6zdt said:
Patrick":1ian6zdt said:
I've always believe in the more free skiing (not necessarily at the small locals) the better. I've seen so many racers that raced from a young age to University. A good number of them were burned out and couldn't ski if it wasn't for gates and had little enjoyment in the sport. Although I started skiing at 3-4 (she started at 2), I've never really raced until reaches and had a long career in university. lol.
This is the key question in my mind. Does she have to race seriously now to be competitive in high school or college? I wouldn't have a clue myself, but Patrick's own experience as stated above implies not necessarily. My vote would be that she is old enough to get more travel and skiing big mountains now. Once she's in high school academics, social events etc. keep kids more tied to home, so then the racing makes more sense.
I believe that the racing level she'll be going in going to be greater than High School level. I don't think her school has ski racing and not all university have teams. It's really hard to compare my skiing experience as a kid with Morgane, not saying that I was better or not, but it was pretty different back then.

Tony Crocker":1ian6zdt said:
Patrick":1ian6zdt said:
We're a one car family and my wife isn't going to be the one driving our daughter at the hill at 8am at -25c. So I'll be skiing vertically challenged hills.
Now I'll make my one :brick: . Morgane has 2 parents and they should share in the sacrifices to make this possible. It's not just ski racing. As kids get older their extracurricular activities inevitably result in more logistics demands. As the one who is always pushing him to make western trips, I'll say in this case that's not the most economical way for Patrick to maintain ski quality. The best way, and it will also reduce other "kitchen" conflicts, is to get a cheap second ski vehicle. So then Patrick can score the best of eastern skiing on short notice without stranding a wife and kids at home with no car. If I were in Patrick's shoes, I'd want the second car as a condition for moving forward with the race plan.

A few problems here.

1) I'm the one that is going to be heading to the local hill every morning, I don't expect many getaways.
2) I'll to save up as much money as I can, ski racing isn't cheap, especially if you take into account the ski equipment, ski pass, race fees and all the other stuff.

EMSC":1ian6zdt said:
Tony Crocker":1ian6zdt said:
EMSC should weigh in here, as he seems to have a lot of experience in race programs.

I will. Have a super busy job life right now and commitments tonight. Maybe Fri or over the weekend.

EMSC and others...you should look at a few answers I got on TGR. Harvey responded here

I need to talk to her this weekend and make a definite decision due to the early-bird season pass pricing deadline. Looks like Tara is dropping out.
 
You got a lot of good detail advice there on TGR from people who have been in these programs. As I said, I wouldn't have clue about the equipment or many of the other points they illuminated.

One of them did bring up cost of South America vs. the race program.... You are one of the strongest advocates of eastern skiing. During these race years (5 or so according to one of the TGR people), it makes sense to me to let go of The Streak and get a car to keep some quality in your own skiing. Morgane is obviously ready to share some of that quality too, along with the racing.

Hutash brought up the diet issue too. No way you as the husband/father will be able to get away with trying to change that, but maybe if the input is coming from her ski coach...
 
Patrick
My best friends kids have been in a ussa race program for the last 5 yrs. They now race at the J1/J2 level. Their time commitment is basically weekends. As you know race days are the worst. Just a bore fest sitting around waiting for your turn. Program and mountain costs are around 1500.00.
As far as equipment is goes. Ebay and Craiglist are your friend.

My oldest daughter races for her high school. The cost is basically just equipment , since the school picks up the transportation and racing costs.
Except for her boots , all of other equipment has been Ebay or hand me downs..
 
Tony Crocker":3ngfzeqx said:
One of them did bring up cost of South America vs. the race program....

Tony Crocker":3ngfzeqx said:
You are one of the strongest advocates of eastern skiing.

Yes, I am and I don't have an issue with that, however I'm a stronger advocates on a variety of experiences. Skiing Edelweiss or Fortune or whatever of the same type of area isn't variety. I managed to do it for 7 years in university for skiing the lower Laurentians so much and went berserk. I would have less an issue if she would be racing with a club at MRG, Stowe or Sugarloaf, of course I would need to move or have a home there.

Tony Crocker":3ngfzeqx said:
During these race years (5 or so according to one of the TGR people), it makes sense to me to let go of The Streak and get a car to keep some quality in your own skiing. Morgane is obviously ready to share some of that quality too, along with the racing.

K2 is 2 years, we will try for 1 year. It's going to be a huge commitment on my and her part. This isn't recreational skiing, she'll need to be on her game. The Streak, what streak? I told you I never precount my days or plan ahead, just trying to see if I can ski this month, but October is always real busy (Ottawa Ski Club 100th anniversary, Ottawa Ski Show, Roger Waters and Morgane bday party).

If I'm stuck here all year skiing local, I'll definitely need to go loco en America Del Sur. :stir: :mrgreen: On a positive side, I might beat a few records like ski day at one area (18 last year at Edelweiss) and total ski days in one season (61 in 2005-06). :roll:

As for skiing elsewhere, they won't be much times and it might be a throw back to my University days (see 1985-86 to 1991-92 seasons). Racing and training then school work.

Tony Crocker":3ngfzeqx said:
Hutash brought up the diet issue too. No way you as the husband/father will be able to get away with trying to change that, but maybe if the input is coming from her ski coach...

Not a chance.

jasoncapecod":3ngfzeqx said:
As far as equipment is goes. Ebay and Craiglist are your friend.
(...)
Except for her boots , all of other equipment has been Ebay or hand me downs..

That's the way I did it last year plus there is the bonus that I know someone that owns a ski shop.
 
Patrick":17iara7a said:
Yes, I am and I don't have an issue with that, however I'm a stronger advocates on a variety of experiences. Skiing Edelweiss or Fortune or whatever of the same type of area isn't variety.
Certainly not.

Patrick":17iara7a said:
MRG, Stowe or Sugarloaf, of course I would need to move or have a home there.
No, that's where the variety should come from during the race years with a second car. Morgane can get an occasional taste of that variety too.

Patrick":17iara7a said:
If I'm stuck here all year skiing local, I'll definitely need to go loco en America Del Sur. :stir: :mrgreen:
I'm going to show discretion and take the response to this offline. :stir:
 
Tony Crocker":3lqnkuzf said:
Patrick":3lqnkuzf said:
MRG, Stowe or Sugarloaf, of course I would need to move or have a home there.
No, that's where the variety should come from during the race years with a second car. Morgane can get an occasional taste of that variety too.
The problem is that the 35 days on snow program will leave little time to go elsewhere in less than 3 months She might even miss a few days in school due to races.
 
she doesn't have to show up to every training day or every race..also you might meet people , thus sharing driving and watching races and practices..remember your paying them to teach , their not paying you , so you can do what ever you want..
 
Patrick,

I assume by comments you've made that the decision has been made already, but your trying to figure out the potential paths that you and family now have in front of you and just generally how to make the whole thing work. I do have to say I'm surprised to learn that you didn't come up through a long ski racing progression all the way from a young kids' level.

Just so you have some more idea of my background: Started racing at age 11 at Greek Peak and continued racing through college, eventually going to what is now USCSA nationals twice. Then started coaching, initially back east (Holimont) while in grad school and then coaching for and eventually taking over the 6-12yr old development program at Eldora (as well as being on their board of directors for 8 years).

The issues you see as you have outlined them:

* Cost
* Logistics/with one car
* Loss of ski flexibility and variety
* Number of race events/pace of training and possible burn out
* Athlete's relative size

Before tackling the above points, I would say that in the US the 12 to 13 yr old change is generally considered a significant change, although the 14 to 15 yr old age grouping change is considered much larger.

Cost: As you've been hearing from a number of folks there are ways to mitigate costs in several areas. Although I would say that if she intends to take racing at all seriously she would need both GS and SL skis (just wait, if she's good and likes it and etc.. in a few years the quiver jumps dramatically in size). Internal Ski Club gear swaps and craigslist are the best way to get race gear reasonably. Speed suits are an expensive item that is not really necessary, though the peer pressure of nearly everyone else racing in them is huge. All of the protective gear is not optional, don't skimp there. One other 'cost' item to be aware of is that nearly all clubs (in the US anyway) have systems of essentially forced volunteerism for fundraisers and hosting races. Otherwise they'll charge even more fees. Given your masters racing I assume you have all the tuning gear. She should be starting to learn how to do some tuning, though if she is as small as you say will still need help with it. There is little way around it, while you can skimp some, ski racing with all of it's parts is not cheap.

Logistics: She is now at an age where she ought to be able to be responsible for her gear or etc... for a training day or potentially even a race. AKA sharing rides. It's extremely common to car pool especially to races starting around this age (typically all parents go to most races for the 12 & under ages). If it's a new club to your family it may require showing up for a while to figure out who you trust and/or can help each other out alternating driving to races or etc... You do like to drive :lol:, so maybe for a long distance race you can offer to drive for someone who will let you use their SUV or etc... My current club runs vans back and forth to training and races, though I doubt the Ottawa local clubs do.

Number of race events/pace of training and possible burn out: Given her specific history I would think 12 races might be a bit too high. 6-8 might be more in line for this season, potentially followed by the full list next year. Coaches will start pushing for more race starts right around now and to be honest they are correct - IF truly chasing ski racing is the athletes desire. You should not feel any obligation to hit every race just because it's on the calendar though. Starting racing at 12yrs old last year is actually rather late compared to most. I worry about the 7 yr old who is being pushed by parents to train and race a lot. I would doubt a 12 yr old starter would burn out in the few short years left before top level racing (assuming they continue). 35 training/race days is not all that crazy for this age. The key is coaching staff keeping it fun and getting plenty of non-gate time still - tons of mileage (or maybe ot's kilometer-age in Canada?).

Athlete's relative size: Shouldn't be an issue for the most part. Super flat races she will be heavily disadvantaged. Any race with a decent pitch, skills and tactics will trump size by a long shot. Biggest issue will be finding SL skis she can actually flex (if nothing in recent models works, try a several year old pair of boys/mens skis where the camber has been broken in).

Loss of ski flexibility and variety: Hard for me to figure out an answer for this one. My family did not have this issue. I like variety too, but I also can find things to interest me on virtually any hill. I have over 400 ski days at Greek Peak, not to mention hundreds now at Eldora. Obviously you have placed a lot of emphasis on variety over your skiing life to date, Including all the trips to SA. From the athletic side, to do any sport well requires a lot of commitment and especially consistency. I know other posters have indicated you can pick and choose to skip out on random days, but that's essentially a setup for failure in this scenario I think (perceived or real). Why bother with the costs and hassles if she's not going to really try (rhetorical question)? Does she have a goal other than to simply try it out? She should probably also have a part in showing her commitment by helping with funds (portion of babysitting money, or other job), etc... Words are not really enough for oversize commitment it sounds like your family must put into this. Kids will say what they think others want to hear; does she show the action and behavior consistent with wanting to go this next step?

There are many paths any athlete can end up on, but some of the most common in this situation: 1) drops out at the huge 14 to 15 yr old age classification split - tons of racers drop out then (lots more $, lots more time, lots more everything to truly try to compete). 2) meets and has a very good clique of friends and continues (or wants to) at a weekend or so level through High School (you'd be surprised how many kids keep going no matter how good they are or not if they have a small group of tight friends in a program). 3) turns out to be a heck of a racer, likely would get some gear help but your eyes really get opened as to time, costs, etc... 4) Finds out it's really competitive even now and doesn't form the bond with a clique and drops out after a year.

Just make sure to allow for the possibility of #3 should it happen. I've seen some really good racers go nowhere because the parents wanted nothing to do with the commitment while the athlete did.


jasoncapecod":3ppx67bt said:
As you know race days are the worst. Just a bore fest sitting around waiting for your turn
You need better coaches or something. My guys only ever sat around like that if it was around 5F or below outside. Inspect, based on field size figure out free runs (before or after the 1st run), Race, food, inspect, more freeruns, race, take a couple more free runs (unless mandated school bus trips leaving right after end of race). Since you can't time the start perfectly of course there is some waiting, but no bore fests for me, thanks. Racing should not be 2 slip runs and 2 race runs, day done. This is supposed to be fun. Only gatekeepers and referees get to suffer :-D Seriously, Start ref is the worst one. On-hill way early, no breaks and off hill only after the end of 2nd run. Since I'm a glutton, that's usually my post when I work a race :)

Are you still reading this. Really? my long winded preaching and soap-box fest wasn't enough? :p
 
EMSC":vr0vw64y said:
Inspect, based on field size figure out free runs (before or after the 1st run), Race, food, inspect, more freeruns, race, take a couple more free runs
Eldora may be small for Colorado, but on an absolute scale I'm sure some of those free runs are quite interesting. These Ottawa places are even more boring than Greek Peak by my understanding. So they should not comprise 100% of Morgane's ski seasons IMHO. If the Ontario spring break is spent on "real mountains," the rest of the season devoted to racing is likely fine if the interest is there.
 
EMSC":2fmomppq said:
I assume by comments you've made that the decision has been made already

The ultimate decision is going to be with my daughter. As of last evening, she was still not 100% on it due to the time involved. She is on the fence and I'm telling her that I'll be okay with whatever decision she'll take. Giving her the pros and the cons, but if she want to get into some more serious racing, this should be the year before that 14 to 15 gap. (from K2 to Junior).

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
but your trying to figure out the potential paths that you and family now have in front of you and just generally how to make the whole thing work.

Looking at how we can make it happen, if she decides to go K2.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
I do have to say I'm surprised to learn that you didn't come up through a long ski racing progression all the way from a young kids' level.

My mom got me in the ski school a few times, like 1-2 sessions for one week. I disliked it because they took us on a beginner trail and I wanted to ski fast. The first time I was maybe 6 and I was with adults in a beginner class. You had to climb the ski by sidestepping up. Boooorrrrringggg... [-( Never really talked about racing as a kid, maybe because it wasn't an option for me due to our finances.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Just so you have some more idea of my background: Started racing at age 11 at Greek Peak and continued racing through college, eventually going to what is now USCSA nationals twice. Then started coaching, initially back east (Holimont) while in grad school and then coaching for and eventually taking over the 6-12yr old development program at Eldora (as well as being on their board of directors for 8 years).

Although I didn't race, I raced down the mountain, like my idols the Crazy Canucks. Downhill and skiing straight down Tremblant top-to-bottom. I used to carry my records in a book somewhere (I had gotten a digital watch for Christmas). Careless? I don't know, there were much fewer skiers on the hill back then....but trails were also much narrower. 8-[ I entered one race when I was maybe 14 and I got a second place for my group. I was a good skier and the word got out when I was in 1st year of CEGEP (between HS and University in Quebec). I guess there was one or two members of the CEGEP skiteam when I was on that Marchbreak skiweek, my friends and I were encourage to try out for the small team next Fall. I was the one one to make the team of maybe 10 out of 5000 students. My CEGEP ski partner that I meant on that trip, Gilles didn't make and Martin was in a different CEGEP that year before going on to Sutton and BC afterwards. (sorry, I'm building my memoirs for my ski blog). So, I only started racing second year of CEGEP and for the following 7 years, I was on the university ski team.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Before tackling the above points, I would say that in the US the 12 to 13 yr old change is generally considered a significant change, although the 14 to 15 yr old age grouping change is considered much larger.

Those gaps exist here for those ages also, plus the fact that she is really entering competitive racing this year at 13.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
intends to take racing at all seriously she would need both GS and SL skis (just wait, if she's good and likes it and etc..

Probably have the wait and see approach. She has a combi 140 in lenght, with her weight and size, it might be too long to use for a slalom (although I skied slalom races in Masters with a 183 GS skis the first year I started racing again). Last year, I was thinking of getting her a ski to freeski. That combi was pretty stiff in MRG bumps last Spring.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
in a few years the quiver jumps dramatically in size). Internal Ski Club gear swaps and craigslist are the best way to get race gear reasonably.

Agree with some internet shopping.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Speed suits are an expensive item that is not really necessary, though the peer pressure of nearly everyone else racing in them is huge.

Totally agree on both counts, but I'll see if she goes that way and what the coach says.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
One other 'cost' item to be aware of is that nearly all clubs (in the US anyway) have systems of essentially forced volunteerism for fundraisers and hosting races.

Yes, that is why I'm talking about my free time also. Two cars or one, it's not going to changed the fact that on races or events, I'll be on the hill, especially the fact that I've been involved in some type of racing in my life, I been voluntold a few times last season. :lol:

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Given your masters racing I assume you have all the tuning gear. She should be starting to learn how to do some tuning, though if she is as small as you say will still need help with it. There is little way around it, while you can skimp some, ski racing with all of it's parts is not cheap.

My wax and files budget is going to have to double. :lol:

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Logistics: She is now at an age where she ought to be able to be responsible for her gear or etc... for a training day or potentially even a race. AKA sharing rides.

Sharing rides, that should be much of a problem.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Number of race events/pace of training and possible burn out: Given her specific history I would think 12 races might be a bit too high. 6-8 might be more in line for this season, potentially followed by the full list next year. Coaches will start pushing for more race starts right around now and to be honest they are correct - IF truly chasing ski racing is the athletes desire. You should not feel any obligation to hit every race just because it's on the calendar though.

I'm not making myself any illusions, I would be very surprised if she'll have a ski racing career. Once I figured (and she figured out) what she wants, we'll see with the coach.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
35 training/race days is not all that crazy for this age. The key is coaching staff keeping it fun and getting plenty of non-gate time still - tons of mileage (or maybe ot's kilometer-age in Canada?).

I don't question the 35 days on snow, I question the 35 days on those hills, she got 27 days last season. Lucky Luke's kids were between 40-70 days last winter and not really in race program. His oldest entered the ski-education program at the Cowansville High School and they ski everything, not only gates and are at Sutton. I believe his daughter got into HS last month. There is a school like this in Ottawa (way out in the suburbs), however my daughter prefers Arts and Drama.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
I know other posters have indicated you can pick and choose to skip out on random days, but that's essentially a setup for failure in this scenario I think (perceived or real). Why bother with the costs and hassles if she's not going to really try (rhetorical question)? Does she have a goal other than to simply try it out?

She loves racing, but I'm not sure if she could tell you if she is goal driven right now?

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
She should probably also have a part in showing her commitment by helping with funds (portion of babysitting money, or other job), etc...

Babysitting, much babysitting are on weekend, Either Friday or Saturday nights OR Sunday mornings. That is going to be problematic, as the Sunday morning one is pretty much weekly and only consistent job (and it's not Church related).

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
There are many paths any athlete can end up on, but some of the most common in this situation: 1) drops out at the huge 14 to 15 yr old age classification split - tons of racers drop out then (lots more $, lots more time, lots more everything to truly try to compete). 2) meets and has a very good clique of friends and continues (or wants to) at a weekend or so level through High School (you'd be surprised how many kids keep going no matter how good they are or not if they have a small group of tight friends in a program). 3) turns out to be a heck of a racer, likely would get some gear help but your eyes really get opened as to time, costs, etc... 4) Finds out it's really competitive even now and doesn't form the bond with a clique and drops out after a year.

Just make sure to allow for the possibility of #3 should it happen. I've seen some really good racers go nowhere because the parents wanted nothing to do with the commitment while the athlete did.

That is why I started this thread...I've heard from a lot of people over the years close to racers from University to Masters, many of these guys dealt with this stuff, like you did. This is not entirely new to me, but I need to know exactly what I'm getting into if she goes that way. The Ideal scenario would be what Lucky kids are going through in term of ski program, however I don't live in the country and work near in the city.

EMSC":2fmomppq said:
Are you still reading this. Really? my long winded preaching and soap-box fest wasn't enough? :p

No, this is great. Thanks for taking the time. I need to get the season passes today, it's the earlybird deadline today at Edelweiss. The pass doesn't cost much (so even if she doesn't race), so I won't do like last year and get it in November. :roll:
 
Tony Crocker":30ps1hds said:
EMSC":30ps1hds said:
Inspect, based on field size figure out free runs (before or after the 1st run), Race, food, inspect, more freeruns, race, take a couple more free runs
Eldora may be small for Colorado, but on an absolute scale I'm sure some of those free runs are quite interesting. These Ottawa places are even more boring than Greek Peak by my understanding. So they should not comprise 100% of Morgane's ski seasons IMHO. If the Ontario spring break is spent on "real mountains," the rest of the season devoted to racing is likely fine if the interest is there.

Perhaps true. I have no idea of the Ottawa places. I do know that Dianne Roffe came out of Brantling, NY (250 vert, no chair lifts); Lindsey Vonn came out of Buck Hill, MN through age 13 before going to Vail, etc... It may take more work to find it and use it but there has to be some level of variety to get that good at skiing while at those bumps. Also not sure if all the K2 races are just local. By age 13 they should be moving toward a more regional racing circuit (aka at least a little more variety).

Patrick":30ps1hds said:
I question the 35 days on those hills
It does provide good focus and a lot less distraction from working on your skiing. As you've pointed out, there is a need to make certain that the local hill days are not 100% of her ski season. At least a few days or spring holiday trip to expose her to more terrain, snow conditions, etc...

Patrick":30ps1hds said:
She loves racing, but I'm not sure if she could tell you if she is goal driven right now?
Some kids are. I've heard the 'I want to race in the Olympics' goal a number of times. But usually followed by not even bothering to listen to their coach on the very next run. That's why I ask about the behavior instead of the stated interest.

Patrick":30ps1hds said:
No, this is great. Thanks for taking the time.
Thanks for reading. It's a very big topic with no perfect answers for sure.
 
EMSC":9tayqibz said:
Tony Crocker":9tayqibz said:
These Ottawa places are even more boring than Greek Peak by my understanding. So they should not comprise 100% of Morgane's ski seasons IMHO. If the Ontario spring break is spent on "real mountains," the rest of the season devoted to racing is likely fine if the interest is there.

Perhaps true. I have no idea of the Ottawa places. I do know that Dianne Roffe (...) Lindsey Vonn came out of Buck Hill, MN (...)Also not sure if all the K2 races are just local. By age 13 they should be moving toward a more regional racing circuit (aka at least a little more variety).

Sorry, when I talked about local, I meant regional as most of these have the same characteristics so pretty interchangeable (verts 500-650ft). Last year, in her intro Nancy Greene level, she had 1 race at Edelweiss, 2 at Vorlage and 1 at Ste-Marie, the last being a bit further and about 1200 ft in vert. She didn't race at Fortune or Cascades or against these club except for one race. 4 of the Gatineau hills are within 40km from downtown Ottawa on the Quebec side of the river, MSM is maybe 90km away. K2 definitely have the opportunity to head outside the region, however like when I was racing in university, we would generally head to similar regional hills instead of the biggest mountain such as Tremblant or Ste-Anne. Great for GS or Slaloms, but not what I would call big vertical variety.

As for the racing tradition, the Ottawa Ski Club (Camp Fortune Ski Club now) is celebrating it's 100th Anniversary and produced it shares of great skiers like Ken Read (7 downhill wins), Betsy Clifford became the youngest to win at the World Championships and Ann Heggtveit winning the two championships at the World and a gold an Olympic Gold at Squaw. Nowadays, Patrick Biggs managed 2 top 10s at the Worlds and on the circuit in slalom a few years ago.

Famous alum:
http://www.campfortuneskiclub.org/index ... &Itemid=50

Here is what is on their website:

Excerpts from KEN READ'S WHITE CIRCUS

'As I learned at Camp Fortune the size of the hill is not the most important element in the development of a racer. What is important? Skiing must be enjoyed for what it is. An enthusiastic program in which participants enjoy lots of camaraderie and bonhomie, can go a long way towards making up any shortcomings in vertical drop.'

'They may not have had the mountains of Europe or the North American West, but Camp Fortune and the Ottawa Ski Club had a structured racing organization which involved hundreds of kids ...... the kids at Fortune were divided so that no child ever felt at a disadvantage because of his weight. Best of all I got to know a bunch of kids who loved to bomb down the hill. We built bumps and executed spread-eagles in masses of 10 to 15 kids. We chased one another everywhere. To test our mettle, we'd schuss slalom, ..... out of such foolishness are formed the skiers, who become racers and the racers who become champions.'

'The Fortune program was varied. We were not obliged to concentrate solely on Alpine skiing, but we were involved in a regime which also included ski jumping, slalom, downhill and cross-country.'

'For a time this small club in the Gatineau Hills may have run the best racing system in Canada. It turned out racers such as Currie Chapman, who now coaches the women's team, and the Clifford sisters, world champion Betsy, and former national team member, Susan.'

'Mr. Graves* and Mr. Livingstone* (Fred and Doug were always "Mister" to this 10 year old) were my first real coaches. They encouraged me alot about the rudiments of the sport, but most of all they made skiing fun. The gratitude of a 10 yr old is fleeting. Their reward for so many weekends with frozen hands and feet was to see my beaming face and then my back as I took off down the hill.'

*parent volunteers with the club

http://www.campfortuneskiclub.org/index ... &Itemid=48
 
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