killington news ???????

joegm

joegm

New member
:evil:

i was bored the other day and started surfing around... it is possible i am reading much into the following... it's possible and i hope so... but something tells me i'm
from the K web page as of the first week of dec:

" All season pass sales are non-refundable and subject to applicable taxes, including 6% Vermont State Sales Tax.

For the 2007-2008 season, Pico Mountain will operate Thursday through Monday, with the exception of Dec. 24-28; Dec. 31- Jan. 4; and Feb. 18-22, 2008, when the resort will operate seven days a week. Passholders may present their Pico Mountain pass at Killington on Tuesdays and Wednesdays to receive 50-percent off window ticket rates, withthe exception of Dec. 25-26; Jan. 1-2; and Feb. 19-20. Operating hours are 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. on weekdays and 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. on weekends and holidays. Pico Mountain is scheduled to operate for the 2007-2008 season Saturday, Dec 15 through Sunday, March 30, weather and conditions permitting. Adult (19-64), Young Adult (13-18), Junior (6-12), Senior (65-69), Super Senior (70+), Child (5 & under)
Questions? Check out our FAQ.

View the Pico FAQ here.
A Killington/Pico season pass is valid from mid-November through mid-April, weather and snow conditions permitting, providing access to more than 1,200 acres of the most diverse skiing and riding terrain in New England served by 32 lifts. More than 70 percent of the terrain is covered by the most extensive snowmaking system in the world and groomed by a fleet of state-of-the-art snow cats. This summer $3 million is being invested to improve the on-mountain experience, including snowmaking pipe replacement, additional low-energy snowmaking equipment, base lodge upgrades and many behind the scenes maintenance projects.


end of paragraph one clearly states that pico will spin till march 30th...
no big deal... but then read on .. first sentence of paragraph 2 clearly says K/pico pass is vailid from mid nov to mid april..... if pico is closing on march 30th, then that must mean K is done mid april.....unreal ... they suck
 
Killington announced that they would operate from mid-Nov to mid-April right after the sale to POWDR was finalized and the season ended.

Joe, you have to stop these summer ski trips and stay on top of the ski news!
 
i cant believe they are actually going to do that.. i just can't believe it....spring skiing is dead in new england :x
 
I believe, in the same press release, they also announced that they are going to groom everything flat, every night.

I believe they're installing winch cat anchors all the way across OL and also on Devils Fiddle.
 
Just busting you Jim. I'm tired of it also. Truth will come out in a few months. I'm sure K and pico will do a better job with actions than public relations.
 
I would not assume that the actions will be any better than the PR, based upon POWDR´s act at Mt. Bachelor. Thus I'd avoid committing to K/Pico season passes until seeing how they actually run these places for a season.

But I agree the topic has been overanalyzed by now. You´ll just have to wait and see at this point.
 
it's easy to say " yeah i agree is has been analyzed enough"... but if your in a postion to do somethin about it, it's time to do something about it.. crocker hits it on the head... but not everyone is gonna do that... that's why it's not going to change

who's responsible for the subprime credit crunch mess...the clowns who run countrywide and american home mortgage and give out the loans? or the clowns who get the loans and have no business getting them in the first place cause they can't afford them?

who's responsible for the demise of Killington and the spring season? the clowns who run killington.. or the clowns who do not demand a full season of product for their investment?

sitting back and seeing how it plays out? sure go ahead....but's it's pretty obvious how it's gonna play out if there are no demands/actions put on them....at least in my eyes it's obvious....
 
You can do something about it.... Its already happening. Many Boston market folk have bought Maine passes. I'm one of them, but I was never in the market to ski K unless it was very early or very late season.

I was spring into March pass holder when that was an option. I was a bronze pass holder when that was an option. They won't be open then anymore anyway. No need to analyze act. :D
 
I have not had time to get on the Epic thread about new K management in over a month. But then there was agitation to:
1) Pursue the revoked lifetime pass issue with Vermont authorities.
2) Organize a consumer boycott of K season passes, or alternatively for those who had to buy them (because they own RE in the area?) to delay the purchase until the last minute in order to create uncertainty in POWDR's cash flow projections.

I have no clue how much progress either of these plans is making.

I believe that POWDR's low-cost model will not work well in New England because there are too many competitive areas offering close to the same product. When POWDR learns this the hard way (I´m not predicting how long it will take) they will sell out.
 
joegm":rvx9dr01 said:
it's easy to say " yeah i agree is has been analyzed enough"... but if your in a postion to do somethin about it, it's time to do something about it.. crocker hits it on the head... but not everyone is gonna do that... that's why it's not going to change

who's responsible for the subprime credit crunch mess...the clowns who run countrywide and american home mortgage and give out the loans? or the clowns who get the loans and have no business getting them in the first place cause they can't afford them?

who's responsible for the demise of Killington and the spring season? the clowns who run killington.. or the clowns who do not demand a full season of product for their investment?

sitting back and seeing how it plays out? sure go ahead....but's it's pretty obvious how it's gonna play out if there are no demands/actions put on them....at least in my eyes it's obvious....
Click to expand...

Joe, I hear you. I went on a rant on the subject on another website.

Don't kill me for it, but I played devil's advocate and took POWDR's side in the argument. My purpose was to stimulate discussion. I got more than I bargained for including a phone call (who knows how they got my number) from a K lifer who balled me out.

Believe me there are plenty of folks out there who are protesting and complaining to the new owners about their "plans". I've also spoken to a few K managers, some who were there before the buyout and a few who came after. They are very tight lipped and won't discuss details. All they will tell me is that skiers will have to wait until the season to see what the product offered will be.

POWDR is the anti-ASC...they won't improve anything without the cash to do it. Considering your opinions on credit, that should actually make you feel positive about them. But it doesn't. Me either.

But at this point, discussion is pointless...they've said what they're willing to say and won't say more. So, I have a wait and see attitude now.
 
Tony Crocker":71xah35f said:
I have not had time to get on the Epic thread about new K management in over a month. But then there was agitation to:
1) Pursue the revoked lifetime pass issue with Vermont authorities.
2) Organize a consumer boycott of K season passes, or alternatively for those who had to buy them (because they own RE in the area?) to delay the purchase until the last minute in order to create uncertainty in POWDR's cash flow projections.

I have no clue how much progress either of these plans is making.

I believe that POWDR's low-cost model will not work well in New England because there are too many competitive areas offering close to the same product. When POWDR learns this the hard way (I´m not predicting how long it will take) they will sell out.
Click to expand...

The Vermont AG office sent letters to everybody who filed a complaint about the revoked lifetime passes saying they didn't see any case. The new owners bought the assets of Sherburne Corp and Killington LTD, not the corporations. The contract for the lifetime pass was with the old corporation which is still owned by The American Skiing Company.

There ain't no season pass boycott. The higher price point for the season pass chased away some people who only recently showed up to feast on that cheap ASC All East product.

In my opinion, the announced opening and closing dates were recommended by their lawyers to fend off lawsuits if they closed around May 1 and people demanded some money back. They'll run the lifts until it's not profitable to do so. That might be weekends-only in late-April the way Sugarbush does it. Historically, Killington has had no problem filling the parking lots on weekends through the end of April. If they really do close on April 13th, a bunch of us will be leaving. I suffer through their midwinter B.S. to ski April. I think this is all a huge mistake. The "first to open, blow snow until the ponds are sucked dry, ski until June 1" was the Killington brand. If, say, Sugarbush picks up the torch for the long season, a lot of season pass people will change mountains since the 7 month season was one of the main reasons to buy a Killington season pass and get housing locally.
 
I always respect Geoff's opinions. And this is the prevailing attitude amongst the half dozen or so property owners at Killington that I'm acquainted with...wait and see what happens this season.
 
i too, respect geoff's opinion's ( along with jimg, patrick , crocker and the admin among others) if geoff feels it's not a done deal necessarily, i'll keep an open mind in terms of if they are open late, i'll go and buy the daily tickets to support em....but there is no way i am putting up the money now based on what they have choosen to put on the record and the direction they have taken over the last 3 years....geoff couldn't have put it any better talking about how dealing with K's nonsense in the winter to get to the good skiing in the spring...
 
joegm":3j3hu5p0 said:
i cant believe they are actually going to do that.. i just can't believe it....spring skiing is dead in new england :x
Click to expand...

Nah, its just happening at Sugarbush South now. They were still spinning chairs in May last season.

And with a pair of skins, the season went on almost until June this year.
 
If POWDR is serious about improving the experience during mid-winter, then I'm OK with them limiting spring skiing to when it's profitable, whether that's until a certain date, or weekends only, beyond mid-April.

Anyway, I'm more worried about the weather this winter than POWDR's operations. Good snowfall covers up for many (but not all ) management missteps.
 
that's why there is no spring skiing... attitudes like that....what exactly is it you want them to do in the " mid winter " to improve the " experience " ? put up more trail signs? improve the menu at the food courts?....spend money for nice soft ass pads on the seats of the lifts?...build more high speed quads?.. outside of spending more money on snowmaking, what the hell else can they do when it is 99% based on things that are out of their control
this whole idea of " profitability " is so convoluted it's ridiculous...what does it mean " as long as it's profitable".... what and how do you define profit?....is it taking in more money that you outlay ON A DAILY BASIS? is it that simple?...of course it's not. there is no way to quantatatively measure on a daily basis profitability for a ski area....outlays are done differently on different days ....if it was that simple, which it is obviously not, one could talk about only opening on the weekends and holidays, early , mid winter and in the spring....but you couldn't even talk about that unless you knew what the relative level of " profit " is or is being sought... how can anyone measure whether a ski area is " losing money " on any given day when so much of it's expenditures are made in so few days throughout the course of the season...it's about the end of the season bottom line...it has nothing to do with selling a certain amount of daily tickets in late april and may to be " profitable " .. and with season passes it should be so obvious to anyone with any common sense that there is no way to determine on any given day " profitability " which should or could be used to measure wether or not a lift should spin....of course the exception would be an area that simply is not being profitable and has no chance of having it's expenditures being lower than it's revenues at the end of the season....in that event 1) the place shouldn't be operating in the first place and 2) would NOT be operating any sort of spring skiing ... it's both sad and frustrating that people can't see , especially here in 4000 ft peak new england where the mid winter snow generally stinks to the high heavens with inconsistency more often than not, that the spring is the best time to ski...unbelieveable :roll:
it should be the opposite of what you seem to advocate... they should cut down on the non skiing b.s spending during the mid winter and they should stop the cheap season pass crap ( or a least expire those passes when the " mid winter " period ends and offer a spring pass for the enlightened ) ...if the lower spending would raise the total margin during the year the argument could be made with even more force that they should spin a lift later and not have to be subjcted to this " is it profitable on a daily basis " nonsense.
mid winter is the only possible time when you CAN HAVE temps below zero and cause you to become numb. mid winter is the only possible time that the air temp CAN BE so cold that it sucks so much moisture out of the snow it can make your skis stick to the snow and not function correctly...mid winter is generally the only time when it can rain ( again it's 4000ft new england ) and then freeze rock solid within 12 hours...and yes sir you are correct , mid winter is pretty much the only time super light powder snow will be skied... i concede that ... powder is great ... when you have it....and we don't have it a lot here, a least those of us who are not locals living near ski areas and cannot just drop everything at a moments notice .....i envy those who can do that, good luck to them and all that....they are lucky beyond belief...that;s just not the case for most...for most it's go when you can go and hope for the best....spring skiing is much more consistent, much more pleasant and much more fun than 90% of the non powder mid winter days in new england....yet we don't demand it.... we'd rather go to killingtion in january and ski groomers when it's minus 10 out. :roll: all cause it's "mid winter"????? those are the days where the hill should close, not 60 degree spring days..... :evil:
 
Spring skiing is a subject on which I agree 100% with joegm, no surprise as Mammoth (closest thing to home turf for me) consistently kicks butt in the spring, while midwinter you're looking at 25+% odds of its best terrain being closed for wind, visibility or avalanche control.

But the problem is economic at most ski areas and unlikely to change. The vast majority of recreational skiers turn to other pursuits when it gets warm in their backyards. Powdr Corp's cutback in spring operations at Mt. Bachelor, which has the best spring skiing on the continent, is Exhibit A. So I could see the impending cutback at Killington coming a mile away. Particularly since it's much more expensive to have late spring skiing in the East (stockpile snowmaking) than at Mammoth or Bachelor.

As joe may have mentioned, the main benefit for Killington having a long season should be increased season pass sales. But we know that Powdr Corp wants to reduce the proportion of skier visits coming from season passes because they think it aggravates peak season crowding.
 
Tony Crocker":3ie73931 said:
So I could see the impending cutback at Killington coming a mile away. Particularly since it's much more expensive to have late spring skiing in the East (stockpile snowmaking) than at Mammoth or Bachelor.

As joe may have mentioned, the main benefit for Killington having a long season should be increased season pass sales. But we know that Powdr Corp wants to reduce the proportion of skier visits coming from season passes because they think it aggravates peak season crowding.
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Tony,

I don't think you have a grasp of the market. You cite some ski resort in east bumfuk Oregon with maybe a couple of million people within 5 or 6 hours drive. Killington is day trip distance from metro-Boston and 4-ish from metro-NYC. In the spring when everyone else closes, there has always been a huge amount of day ticket business at Killington as the people with all the ski passion from other Northeastern mountains wander in. Tons of Canadians. Tons of Massholes. Tons of New Yorkers. Sure, the 7 month season and snowmaking reputation has always been a reason to settle at Killington and buy a season pass. A big April into May is also a viable business based on walkup day ticket sales. You don't get the same skier yield since lodging is steeply discounted and there's a price break on the lift ticket but it doesn't take many staff to operate the resort at that time of year. They run the K1 in the summer for mountain biking and touron lift rides when the place gets very little traffic. There's no reason why they can't do the same thing in at least the first half of May.

I think ASC really created the problem when they ripped out the Killington double chair. They could load at the midstation and operate the lift with 3 or 4 staff for October and late-May skiing. Upper Downdraft held snow much better than Superstar and the trail is much narrower so the costs to stockpile snow were much lower. To restore the Killington brand, I really think they should buy a used double or triple and run it from midmountain up to Killington Peak for fall and spring skiing.
 
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