Stowe's now officially for sale
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J.Spin
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I didn't see this in the First Tracks news section, and it may not be of too much interest to the regular First Tracks crew like it will be to Vermont skiers, but I just saw in a message from Matt Kulas on SkiVT-L that Stowe is officially for sale now.
J.Spin
J.Spin
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Any rumors about who the suitors may be?
Bushwacker1951
New member
jamesdeluxe":2mogn0j3 said:
A few months ago there was a rumor and articles in the Stowe/Burlington papers that Hank Greenberg was interested. What better way to get back at the company that threw him out on the street(deservably so IMHO) than to buy one of it's assets at a cheap price.
Unfortunately for Hank, in the past year being that most of his wealth is in AIG stock, according to an article in Forbes last month, was the biggest loser in amount of weath relative to his total value in 2008 so he is probably out of the picture. In the list of billionnaires in the article Hank was last in total wealth. He has owned a home in Stowe for many years and a loyal Stowe skier all the years he was running AIG.
Not a surprise, and yes we're interested. I was telling Adam a month ago at Mammoth that AIG owned Stowe, so that it was likely to be up for sale soon.
Well, Stowe is the best mountain back there, though I'd attract lots of 
if I estimated where it would stack up out here. :stir:
if I estimated where it would stack up out here. :stir:
Geoff
New member
rfarren":3tst5hvt said:How about us regulars put our money together and make a bid.
Although, I'm not sure we could get the Utah regulars to put up with the finicky conditions of NO'vt.
With the anti-business tax and regulatory climate in Vermont, I think Stowe would make for a lousy investment. I'd expect a trustafarian to end up with it unless it goes cheap enough to get one of the corporate buyers interested. I suspect the dollar numbers I've been reading for the likely selling price of the resort are way higher than what it will actually go for. Stowe just doesn't do the skier visits to command big money and it's tough to make the kind of money developing real estate in Vermont to justify a big selling price for the resort. I doubt the ski area part is worth more than $10-$20 million. I don't have a sense for how much developable land they have left. I recall they had to set aside the majority of their land as greenspace to get the permits for what has already been built.
My bet is that private equity will pick it up for a fire sale and hold it until the market turns. Not sure they'd want to keep it for too long. PE is notorious for cost cutting and building the bottom-line at the expense of quality operations to shine up the financials for sale. You may see a few less staff and amenities on the mountain should that happen.
J.Spin
New member
I don't think there would be too much trouble with that topic. You’ve already lined Stowe up to other areas in the country before, and based on the discussion in the recent Steamboat thread, it looks like it is somewhat comparable to that resort using a lot of the typical metrics and other qualities. I hadn’t thought too much about that specific comparison before, but having reviewed that thread and been back at Stowe more extensively this season, it’s quite an interesting one. Steamboat has always been an area that I’ve wanted to ski, so I looked into the comparison a little more.Tony Crocker":2gks2n2j said:Well, Stowe is the best mountain back there, though I'd attract lots of
Both Steamboat and Stowe have just about wall to wall tree skiing (at least for skiers of appropriate ability) and a fairly consistent supply of powder (vs. the more feast or famine types of areas). Steamboat seems to get a bit more snowfall: 374” based on what you wrote in that thread vs. 333” at Stowe. I was surprised to see that Steamboat’s website says that they average only 331” of snow, although I’m not sure where that is coming from. At 2,965 acres, Steamboat’s in bounds area is bigger than Stowe’s. For Stowe, only the acreage of their cut trails (485 acres) is provided on the website, but a quick calculation of their in-bounds terrain on Google Earth puts it at a bit over 2,000 acres, which seems reasonable based on the 1,000+ acres that Smuggler’s Notch reports. One thing I’d forgotten about Steamboat was that the area has such a huge vertical drop, which at 3,668’ is much more than Stowe’s 2,000’+. But Stowe does seem to have more in the way of consistent fall line skiing/steepness as you mentioned in that Steamboat thread. I’ve only been through town and seen Steamboat’s slopes from afar, so I wasn’t too aware of the mountain layout, but once I took a 3-D look at the resort area on Google Earth I had a better idea of the topography. In general the area has a lot of rolling terrain, so it doesn’t look like you can just drop all 3,668’ in one steep run.
I really don’t know much about Steamboat’s out of bounds terrain, or how much additional vertical you can add to a run with hiking, but from the discussion in that thread it sounds like there is some steep terrain akin to Stowe’s sidecountry/backcountry. Someone more familiar with the backcountry there will have to comment on how long and steep the runs are, but I am somewhat familiar with what you can get off Mt. Mansfield with lift assistance. You have to hike to the Chin to get ~3,000’ vertical runs at Stowe, but you can get pretty sustained pitch for just about the whole thing on runs like Hourglass/Hellbrook and other routes, there are some amazing long descents on that area. If you look at Mt. Mansfield on Google Earth you can quickly see the sustained pitch of the big descents off the Chin down into the Notch.
In terms of overall consistency of the snow surface, Steamboat’s climate should definitely make it superior to Stowe’s, although that’s not as critical if one manages to get in on fresh snow. I was surprised to hear EMSC’s comments about the poor snow surface on some parts of Steamboat when he was there, but perhaps that was exacerbated by holiday crowds. The mention of Steamboat crowds also surprised me, but that may be par for the holidays even there. I’m sure Stowe would be quite crowded during that period, even on weekends it is far more crowded that what I’m used to. Both areas are up there in terms of price, but that didn’t surprise me too much about Steamboat. Steamboat made the short list (along with Grand Targhee, Banff, and a couple others) of destinations for a ski trip that E and I took back in February 1999, but lost big time to Banff essentially due to price. The exchange rate at that point made Banff beat everyone though, especially with a great package deal and the very cheap flights from Montreal to Calgary. As I recall, Steamboat was the most expensive area of our finalists. Steamboat is still on my list of places to visit, but it’s certainly been knocked down a bit after reading EMSC’s report.
Looking through the numbers, I think Steamboat would probably beat out Stowe in general for me, based on my personal preferences for powder, lower crowds, and the fact that lots of steep terrain is not absolutely necessary. If I had to plan my trip way ahead, I think I would choose Steamboat over Stowe for snow surface reliability, but for short notice when you know the snow is good at either place I don’t think Stowe would have any trouble stacking up against Steamboat. I’m sure I would visit both were they somehow close together/equidistant, yet still maintaining their individual snowfall and weather patterns. I bet some folks who are more interested in the longer fall line skiing and steep terrain might even favor Stowe over Steamboat, but I’ll still have to pay Steamboat a visit sometime to get a first hand impression of the terrain.
-J
My comments on the comparison were quite detailed in the Steamboat thread. I believe Steamboat is about 3x Stowe in true ski variety. In terms of fall lines, Steamboat is 3 mountains of ~2,000 vertical, 2 of them at higher elevation behind the front one. My gut reaction is that Stowe is similar to a 1,000 acre western area like Mt. Baker. In both cases you would get to 2,000 only by counting hike-to or OB car shuttle terrain. Given JSpin's style of skiing, sidecountry is a key factor in the type of area he prefers (he would 
at one of Larry Schick's Southback tours at Crystal Mt.), but for most skiers, area size comparisons should consist of the in-bounds.
In terms of snow/powder/reliability this is an illustrative comparison of differing values to the drive-up vs. plan-ahead destination visitor. Steamboat is flawed by its SW exposure. But from mid-December to mid-February it's usually cold enough that surfaces will be decent, plus that's the highest average historical snowfall period. So advance booking into that timeframe rates to produce a satisfactory or better ski experience with good consistency.
Stowe will probably produce not that many fewer powder days over the course of a season. But it will also get the Northeast rain/freeze events, randomly distributed. So the plan-ahead visitor has a significant chance of very unpleasant conditions, while the local like JSpin skis when it's good and stays home when it's not.
My comparisons vs. the Northeast relate to challenging areas that are viewed as "small" out here but on an absolute scale are better than Stowe being similar in ski variety with better terrain and snow. A-Basin, Sugar Bowl, Mt. Rose, Mt. Baker, Castle Mt. are examples.
at one of Larry Schick's Southback tours at Crystal Mt.), but for most skiers, area size comparisons should consist of the in-bounds. In terms of snow/powder/reliability this is an illustrative comparison of differing values to the drive-up vs. plan-ahead destination visitor. Steamboat is flawed by its SW exposure. But from mid-December to mid-February it's usually cold enough that surfaces will be decent, plus that's the highest average historical snowfall period. So advance booking into that timeframe rates to produce a satisfactory or better ski experience with good consistency.
Stowe will probably produce not that many fewer powder days over the course of a season. But it will also get the Northeast rain/freeze events, randomly distributed. So the plan-ahead visitor has a significant chance of very unpleasant conditions, while the local like JSpin skis when it's good and stays home when it's not.
My
comparisons vs. the Northeast relate to challenging areas that are viewed as "small" out here but on an absolute scale are better than Stowe being similar in ski variety with better terrain and snow. A-Basin, Sugar Bowl, Mt. Rose, Mt. Baker, Castle Mt. are examples.
EMSC
Well-known member
Figured I might as well chime in on this one ;-)
As Tony mentions, Steamboat is 3 mountians of ~2K verts, As far as I'm concerned, just ignore the entire lower mtn for the most part. Except for a handful of big powder days maybe. That lower mtn does not get nearly the snowpack of the upper two mtns and as Steamboat base is fairly low (for Colo) the surface conditions frequently and quick go back to basically hardpack. That said, you can get solid >2K vert runs in up top that have prety consistent single diamond pitch.
Unfortunately, the most rolling portion includes the only true double diamond steeps which drive you to a super long and flat run out. Though there are plenty of long fall line runs at single diamond pitch. Nothing goes for all 3600 feet in a consistent pitch though you could do a decent run of it all with only one section of flat/roll... Lookers right mtn on the trail map puts you into a closed drainage/lift ride out, lookers left mtn you can end up on traverses out of the drainage back all the way to the base.
No real hiking available at Steamboat (inbounds), just one short walk up ~30 verts to a portion of their steeps... That's the same direction you'd go to do out of bounds runs which would drop you into Fish Creek (N of the ski area). As the town of Steamboat is on the valley floor, no extra vert's available from out of bounds (though there may be a small ridge you'd have to go up between the ski area edge to get to the best OB). I've never done it as I'm an in-bounds skier (for now anyway), but I do know you'd need to pre-position a car where the creek comes out of the canyon - it's at least a couple miles from town or the ski area base.
Without looking at what I wrote, I recall the bad surfaces being 1) the entire lower mtn (aka Gondola and down) - see my & Tony's comments on altitude/exposure 2) most of the groomers up top more than a day or two after new snow. Steamboat has a LOT fewer groomers on the upper mtn than most ski areas it's size which concentrates fairly big numbers of tourists onto them (which is fine by me of course). So the big crowd areas were, groomers, a couple of lift lines (e.g. am gondola ride to get up the mtn), and indoor eating space - Steamboat seems to be lacking in on-mtn lodge square footage relative to many others IMO.
Nothing's going to scare you at the 'boat, it's mostly about consistent single diamond pitch powder skiing... The Boat' tends to get bigger and somewhat drier dumps, when they come, than most of Colo (Wolf creek excepted). Not that Colo snow is very dense anyway.
As Tony mentions, Steamboat is 3 mountians of ~2K verts, As far as I'm concerned, just ignore the entire lower mtn for the most part. Except for a handful of big powder days maybe. That lower mtn does not get nearly the snowpack of the upper two mtns and as Steamboat base is fairly low (for Colo) the surface conditions frequently and quick go back to basically hardpack. That said, you can get solid >2K vert runs in up top that have prety consistent single diamond pitch.
Unfortunately, the most rolling portion includes the only true double diamond steeps which drive you to a super long and flat run out. Though there are plenty of long fall line runs at single diamond pitch. Nothing goes for all 3600 feet in a consistent pitch though you could do a decent run of it all with only one section of flat/roll... Lookers right mtn on the trail map puts you into a closed drainage/lift ride out, lookers left mtn you can end up on traverses out of the drainage back all the way to the base.
No real hiking available at Steamboat (inbounds), just one short walk up ~30 verts to a portion of their steeps... That's the same direction you'd go to do out of bounds runs which would drop you into Fish Creek (N of the ski area). As the town of Steamboat is on the valley floor, no extra vert's available from out of bounds (though there may be a small ridge you'd have to go up between the ski area edge to get to the best OB). I've never done it as I'm an in-bounds skier (for now anyway), but I do know you'd need to pre-position a car where the creek comes out of the canyon - it's at least a couple miles from town or the ski area base.
Without looking at what I wrote, I recall the bad surfaces being 1) the entire lower mtn (aka Gondola and down) - see my & Tony's comments on altitude/exposure 2) most of the groomers up top more than a day or two after new snow. Steamboat has a LOT fewer groomers on the upper mtn than most ski areas it's size which concentrates fairly big numbers of tourists onto them (which is fine by me of course). So the big crowd areas were, groomers, a couple of lift lines (e.g. am gondola ride to get up the mtn), and indoor eating space - Steamboat seems to be lacking in on-mtn lodge square footage relative to many others IMO.
Nothing's going to scare you at the 'boat, it's mostly about consistent single diamond pitch powder skiing... The Boat' tends to get bigger and somewhat drier dumps, when they come, than most of Colo (Wolf creek excepted). Not that Colo snow is very dense anyway.
Bushwacker1951
New member
It's the real estate that makes Stowe and the Boat comparable resort properties. Both have considerable developements at the base. AIG has just invested 200m out of a 400m planned developement. The Boat went for 256m a few years ago in a good economy, AIG is a very motivated seller. It's reported that there are several interested and qualified potential buyers according to AIG's CEO, Ed Liddy. It's gonna be interesting.
EMSC
Well-known member
I just assume everyone knows the only reason AIG ever owned Stowe was because of the now ex-CEO Greenburg... It's always nice to be the guy at the top and accumulate play things at company expense. I forget the thread I previously mentioned in months ago, but I will also be very interested in the price and final buyer. I'm highly skeptical of any of the current big ski industry players bidding/buying (Vail, Intrawest, powdr, etc..). Maybe Tim Blixesth can buy it and make it part of his club concept :lol: :lol:
Stowe has a great rep, but just doesn't get the skier days to compare price wise with a Steamboat(which is @1M visits annually). Unless it comes with a ton of develop-able land which I highly doubt now that much of the 'build out' is under way/complete. And while it's clearly a non-core asset, for AIG the costs and revenues are a rounding error compared to other items they need to focus on. So if they demand a lot and no one bites at that high a price I could easily see AIG sitting on it for a while... Total speculation of course, but the price has to be reasonable in this market (or a buyer has to willingly overpay because they have such tight ties to it - aka Greenburg). Just a couple of thoughts I had re-reading the thread.
As far as I know fresh snow anywhere in Colo averages out to a very dry 6-8%. But most of those places get <300 per season, with the typical storm in the 6 inch range, leading to a lot of subsurface skiing on new snow days. Steamboat's 374 average combined with the "consistent single diamond pitch" has to result in many more floatable powder days than at most Colorado areas.
My numbers are always indexed to project to a November 1 to April 30 basis. Steamboat has always closed by mid-April, and until about 10 years ago their November data was incomplete also.
J.Spin
New member
That description of Steamboat certainly clarifies the layout for me. The only additional comment I'd make would be with regard to the acreage, which we've discussed before in one of my Lost Trail threads. Unless one is going to limit themselves to the trails and perhaps some of the well-known glades, Stowe's in bounds terrain skis a lot more like the ~2,000 acres that are actually there because the trees are so open. It's going to ski differently than 2,000 acres of treeless terrain, but I've spent enough time at treed areas like Red Mountain, Lost Trail, Montana Snowbowl, much of Fernie, etc. to have a decent perspective on how their acreage skis compared to the resorts around here. Steamboat might be a special case though, if all of its trees are so widely spaced that one doesn't need to be an advanced skier to ski them. I don't think Tony's gut reaction about the size of Stowe's terrain is too far off, it might just be from a different perspective. When someone from my perspective looks at the east face of Mt. Mansfield, it's not so much that you see trails and trees, but a massive bowl of ski terrain that's more than a mile across. The best way I can relate my perspective would be to think about a scene from "The Matrix" where one of the operators explains that he doesn't even see the numbers and letters on the computer screen anymore, they're all just images.Tony Crocker":37rxi64g said:
-J
My impression is that tree skiing at Red/Fernie is nearly wall-to-wall, while in Northern Vermont the trees are tighter spaced so that there are more discrete defined lines. Thus more ski options/variety IMHO at the former than the latter.
I'm less inclined to debate JSpin on this as other East/West topics because:
1) He's probably skied Red/Fernie as much as I have (6 days with good conditions and 3 where only masochists would have gone off-trail) and of course a ton in Vermont.
2) He's a much better skier than I am and thus can get through many more tree openings (rabbit warrens per admin) than I can.
Steamboat's trees are mostly like Red/Fernie (though not as steep on average) with some tighter lines through cottonwoods. Admin showed me that I can do cottonwoods if the pitch is intermediate like Powder Mt. or the lower half of Solitude.
IMHO Red/Fernie/Steamboat/Baldy are among the elite of western tree skiing areas. The majority of western areas probably have lesser or no more tree skiing than Stowe. Most have a short band of 500 vertical or so between the alpine and where the trees close out.
I'm less inclined to debate JSpin on this as other East/West topics because:
1) He's probably skied Red/Fernie as much as I have (6 days with good conditions and 3 where only masochists would have gone off-trail) and of course a ton in Vermont.
2) He's a much better skier than I am and thus can get through many more tree openings (rabbit warrens per admin) than I can.
3) To me the expression "because the trees are so open" means a place like Mt. Baldy, where the spacing is so wide that some of the easterners saw my pics and disputed calling it tree skiing at all.
Steamboat's trees are mostly like Red/Fernie (though not as steep on average) with some tighter lines through cottonwoods. Admin showed me that I can do cottonwoods if the pitch is intermediate like Powder Mt. or the lower half of Solitude.
IMHO Red/Fernie/Steamboat/Baldy are among the elite of western tree skiing areas. The majority of western areas probably have lesser or no more tree skiing than Stowe. Most have a short band of 500 vertical or so between the alpine and where the trees close out.