Valemount Approved

GnarBot

New member
Curious to get thoughts on this newly approved resort in BC:

http://valemountglaciers.com/

Construction to start next Spring, opening goal is December 2017, but with a long full build out time frame. Looks gigantic (overly ambitious?) at 6000+ vertical feet, about 2,000 acres of "trails" and about 10,000 acres off total controlled area. A quote on snow from their website:

"CMH’s Cariboo Lodge operators report an average annual snowfall of 14 metres (551 in) at 1,800 m (5,905 ft.) elevation, which is in the lower portions of the planned skiable terrain."

Also, Tony had this to say in 2007:
Tony Crocker":2ybvc9wu said:
Interior B.C. is underutilized now relative to the quality of the skiing. More resorts are likely to increase overall visits from outside the region. Otherwise Intrawest would oppose Jumbo, presuming it would kill Panorama.

Jumbo would be like a piece of the French Alps in Canada. Patrick should be in favor of that :wink:. The unique nature of its terrain for North America is what should make dedicated skiers excited. Unlike other high alpine mountains in B.C. Panorama's existing facilities and road reduce the amount of base infrastructure that would need to be built at Jumbo.

The vast area from Nelson north to Valemount is also revered by powderhounds for its close to Alta-like snowfall and impressive natural tree skiing. But at the moment you have to pay up for cat or heliskiing or earn your turns for most of it. Revelstoke would be the only lift service in this climate zone other than backcountry-oriented Whitewater. I'm still not sure whether the 2+ hour access from Kelowna and Kamloops is convenient enough to attract enough visitors. I don't think that much is going to come from the tough 5 hour Calgary drive, which passes by Banff, Lake Louise and Kicking Horse.

Am I a hopeless fool for being excited about this? Destined to fail?

-Gnarbot
 
Deep dive to find my 2007 post, before Revelstoke opened.

Revelstoke has not lived up to the hype. Here's a rather critical thread with much of the criticism coming from Canadian locals: http://www.epicski.com/t/145782/revelst ... a-new-lift

In terms of snowfall Revelstoke averages ~350 inches at 6,400 feet. That's nice in resort context but far from the 485 inches a few miles away at Mt. Fidelity near Rogers' Pass. The lower mountain gets a lot of rain and faces west, and a good chunk of the upper terrain faces south. The north facing terrain is good but difficult to lap. The reality is that most of the time Revy is a 2,000 vertical mountain with somewhat tedious layout because most people don't want to ski the variable snow lower down. As the Epic thread title says, more lifts would help but current management has no intention to build any.

Valemount and Jumbo are similar resorts in design. The design of both comes from Oberto Oberti, the same guy who built Kicking Horse and botched its lift layout. Hopefully he has learned something. The primary vision for both resorts seems to be providing summer glacier skiing comparable to several areas in the Alps. He is correct this will be unique in North America, but I have no idea how much extra tourism this will drive. Valemount is 1 hour 20 minutes from Jasper, which already attracts summer tourism, so maybe.

As far as winter is concerned, neither Kicking Horse nor Revelstoke is a smashing financial success. Thus the local Canadians have some skepticism about these projects. Jumbo strikes me as more accessible, just up the road from Panorama, which is daytrippable from Banff/Lake Louise. Valemount is close to Jasper/Marmot,which is a weekend destination for Edmonton locals. Edmonton to Valemount is 5 hours. Kamloops to Valemount is 3 hours. Kamloops is touted as the gateway airport, but it's a small time airport vs. Kelowna, 2 hours further away.

I was personally in favor of Jumbo, and I never figured out why it became a poster boy of environmental opposition while Valemount being proposed by the same developer in the same type of terrain seems to be sailing through. At any rate I'd like to see one of these glacier resorts built, but the economic case for building two of them seems very weak.

The 300+ page report pdf for Valemount touts trail distribution very much in the mainstream of intermediate concentration. They say advanced/experts shouldn't worry because there are lots of trees and challenging off-piste. I'll reserve judgment on that until I see it.

I was fairly impressed by the weather analysis. One might expect bitter cold that far north, but winter temps seem to be about 7F warmer than Lake Louise/Sunshine. When I drove that route in 2007 I observed that temperature rise between Jasper and Valemount on the way to Mike Wiegele at Blue River. As far as the 550 inches of snowfall at 5,900 feet are concerned, I'd like to track that number down.
1) I've searched periodically for data from the cat/heli operators and either found it too sketchy (missing too many days) or being from a lodge elevation too low. 5,900 is a good elevation, similar to Mustang or Mt. Fidelity, if the data is credible.
2) It's as a big leap to assume snowfall is the same at Valemount as Cariboo Lodge as it is to assume Revelstoke is the same as Mt. Fidelity. When Revelstoke opened it was claiming Mt. Fidelity level snowfall and more. There are some good reasons to explain Revelstoke's discrepancy but I have no idea whether we should expect Valemount and Cariboo Lodge to be the same. The developers are confident enough to claim no snowmaking will be needed.
 
Tony Crocker":2hdaycfs said:
1) I've searched periodically for data from the cat/heli operators and either found it too sketchy (missing too many days) or being from a lodge elevation too low. 5,900 is a good elevation, similar to Mustang or Mt. Fidelity, if the data is credible.
Deja vu. The Environment Canada website says the Cariboo Lodge is at only 3,594 feet, so no surprise November-April snowfall there averages 199 inches. It is a good dataset from 1976-2006. FYI I had found Bugaboo Lodge data from Environment Canada a long time ago and it had the same problem: too low elevation not representative of ski terrain.

The quote from 5,900 feet is likely a SWAG. After I skied at Mike Wiegele, I determined they had a snow plot at 6,000 so asked for the data there. A couple of years looked OK, then numbers started to look low and it turned out they can't get access to that plot every day. And of course the days they can't get access are likely to be snowy ones.

I strongly suspect the same is true for CMH Cariboo but it would likely take some digging to find and investigate the source of that snow claim.
 
I glanced at a few of the maps for it and the lift layouts are a complete head scratcher at best. Obviously spending more time with the maps and seeing things in person sometimes clears up the concepts, but I doubt it for much of this case. Really a lot of lifts 'connecting' poorly designed terrain pods and very few lifts that look they they are designed by skiers for actual skiing. Just my 2c, but I'd probably start over on the specifics of the lift/trail design if it were my money.
 
It's hard to evaluate the terrain without seeing it. The cut trails do look fairly uninspiring. The above timberline alpine does not look as extensive as Jumbo IMHO. Perhaps I'm biased because I skied the latter with RK Heli in 1999.

The very highest terrain is in Stage 3 and set apart from the rest of the area with a gondola connection. This is not uncommon in the Alps and that sector is mostly for summer I would guess.

It's possible that the tree skiing is awesome per Wiegele just down the road. It's also possible that it's a previously logged area like Revelstoke's Mt. MacKenzie where the tree spacing is mostly too tight. We just don't know.

I'm inclined to believe that the snowfall is quite a bit more than Jumbo, even if it's not the 550 inches advertised.
 
I flew over the future home of Valemount Glacier Destinations this February. The high alpine will offer the raddest terrain this side of the Alps.
 
The pics in the proposal look great. The lift/trail diagrams, as noted by EMSC, seem less inspired. But it's certainly possible that lots of great terrain is accessible by traverse and/or short bootpack. We know it works this way in the Alps.

I think the developers are emphasizing the intermediate terrain in order to garner broad support and get the project approved.

It's safe to say I'll be at Valemount the first season it opens as I'm sort of in the neighborhood every year.
 
OK, I continue to be pretty excited about this. The glacier skiing doesn't do much for me, but possibly Utah-like snow conditions with Euro size/terrain and low crowds seems unique to me. Certainly worth the drive up from the PNW. Although not great for business, remoteness is something I cherish in a ski area (as well as stuff to terrify myself with).

I hope I don't get in trouble for the "Utah-like" snow comment! On a more serious note, how do they not have snow data for the actual terrain? Seems like two or three years of snow data would be reasonable given the time frame of a project like this. This data could be compared to longer run data in the region to get a good estimate of snowfall.

I think I remember that Revelstoke had plans to expand in phases, which were subsequently ditched. Hope Valemount gets a full build out.
 
Gnarbot":fnq8tdri said:
On a more serious note, how do they not have snow data for the actual terrain?
Accurate snowfall measurements need to be done daily by a live person. It's almost impossible in undeveloped terrain at 5,900 feet in that area. As noted before, Mike Wiegele has a station at that elevation in terrain they have been skiing for 40 years and they still can't get to it every day.
Gnarbot":fnq8tdri said:
Seems like two or three years of snow data would be reasonable
Not nearly enough on a stand alone basis.
Gnarbot":fnq8tdri said:
This data could be compared to longer run data in the region to get a good estimate of snowfall.
That's the way I do it. It works very well in comparing Mt. Fidelity to Revelstoke because they are close to each other, fairly well correlated, and the Mt. Fidelity data is very extensive. I'll again remind people that Revelstoke when it opened claimed Mt. Fidelity level snowfall even though it gets only 70% as much. I don't know whether that emerged as a surprise or was just marketing hype for public consumption.

It is highly unlikely there is a long term weather station at appropriate altitude near the Valemount ski terrain. Nonetheless if the snowpack there is comparable to that at similar elevation at Wiegele and CMH Cariboo, that would provide some confidence.
 
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