Wolf Creek as your "home mountain"

snowave

Member
So our latest travels look to take us to Pagosa Springs, CO in our search of our long term home. In the last 5 yrs, my wife and I have lived in the mountains of Socal, Leavenworth, WA, Driggs, ID, and Whitefish MT. There have obviously been some great ski areas in those places, namely Targhee/Jackson and Whitefish.... but for one reason or another, the location didn't quite fit. Teton Valley came very close, and we may go back there one day... but for now, it's not on the list. The reason we are leaving NW Montana is it's largely due to the MONTHS on end of winter gray in NW Montana... and the ever expanding population of Flathead Valley, which is now ~100,000. We like small towns, with a little less tourism influx. We both work remotely, so jobs aren't an issue at all, thankfully.

We have been to Pagosa a few times, spent some time there checking it out... and generally like the town, vibe and climate. Not afraid of snow and cold, but looking forward to many more sunny days. I have seen Wolf Creek from across the highway and above, and it looks like an adaqueate enough mountain. I have also looked at a few threads on here and gotten some opinions... 1600 acres and vert is a tad small, so I know I may get bored at times. I'm aware it's a big powder destination, but my biggest concern is actually availability of groomers. =; I know mentioning groomers at a place like WC is almost sac-religious, but after the powder gets tracked, my wife and I tend to migrate back to them. Call us wimps, that's OK. It seems low key/skier use (except maybe weekend and holidays)... so that is a big plus as well. Call us spoiled, that's OK. \:D/ While we love skiing/riding, we're probably closer to 20-30 days on the mtn vs 50+.

I also know that region can have some variability in snow from year to year, even though WC seems to be the best bet for consistent snow in CO overall. I would love to see annual snowfall history for the place for maybe the last 20 yrs or so (paging TonyC).

So, based on my criteria... what do you think about having WC as a home mountain? Any other tips/advice about the area? I analyze things to death, so I do have a pretty good idea about the area, but as always, first hand opinions are always appreciated!

Thanks,
Sno
 
You need to PM "anachronism" on EpicSki. He has a season pass at Wolf Creek even though he lives in Durango.

I've read a lot of his posts and come away with some impressions.

Wolf Creek's stats make it look like a mellow area, but that's an inaccurate description. The terrain is "benchy," lots of short steeps with flat sections in between. You need to learn where the latter are to avoid being bogged down on big powder days.

Crowds are big over Christmas and even worse during Texas spring break around 3rd week of March. Otherwise it's quite deserted and the powder lasts a long time. But maybe not that different from Targhee, which has fewer skier visits on more acreage. Day to day Wolf may be less busy due to the extreme concentration of business during those 2 weeks of the season.

With base elevation 10,600 feet and mostly north exposure, snow preservation is outstanding and much better than west-facing Targhee in the late season.

Wolf will open a lot of terrain in early season on a ridiculously low base. Nonetheless Thanksgiving average base depth is 37 inches and probably 3/4 (I'm guessing) of terrain is skiable on that.

Yes I have quite a bit of snow data from Wolf Creek. Summary stats here: http://www.bestsnow.net/swconet.htm There is some volatility. 1976-77 and 1980-81 were busted seasons through February, and about one year in 10 there will not be adequate snow on the ground until after New Year's.
 
Thanks Tseeb and TonyC

Tony, I have looked at your page quite often for snow stats. I am one of those people with a math tumor, so I have been reading some of your categories wrong. Thanks for pointing out the "explanations of column headings". While WC is somewhat volatile, the 100" standard deviation with a 390" annual avg is still pretty respectful, and makes me feel a little better about still getting decent snow even in low snow years. I know that part of the country can get some significant drought, but WC does seem to really pull in the snow in that little micro-climate it seems to be in. I would still be interested to see an annual snowfall history for WC if you have that available, and it's not too much trouble to compile. You can PM it to me if you don't want to post to here.

Thanks again for the info!
 
If you are considering that part of the country, Durango is another option worth exploring. The town is a little larger than Pagosa Springs with better air service. Definitely warmer and sunnier than some locations where you have resided.

It also adds Silverton and Purgatory mountains into the mix as home hills. Silverton can be quite fun during its unguided season and heli-bumps. Durango has long groomers when there is not new snow.
 
Thanks, ChrisC

Yeah, Durango is too big for our tastes (we prefer something pretty small- although even Pagosa is growing quite a bit)...It's a fun place to go out to dinner and shop a little though, as well as catch a flight to Denver and beyond. I also plan to hit Purgatory/Silverton a few times, too if/when we move to the area. We are going down there in early March for some house hunting and maybe a day at Wolf Creek.
 
snowave":ttn35mbh said:
Yeah, Durango is too big for our tastes (we prefer something pretty small-
I think this may be the first time I've heard of a sub-20K population town as being too big!
 
I can understand that coming from people living in the big city....I used to one of them when I lived in LA! ... But after living in the smallish town's under a few thousand over the last 10 yrs, 20k seems really big. It is kinda ironic, I know. 8-[
 
I still have never been there, but when googling to see if I could find anything about Notch Chute at Kirkwood, I found a website where somebody made of list of what they thought were that top 100 North American ski areas and are trying to ski them all. On what I think is their first day there, they said "Wolf Creek is known for having the most snow in Colorado and they had received 269″ of snow by mid-January so we weren’t disappointed (in the snow at least). However, we found Wolf Creek very lacking in terrain quality and we were bored by 1:30PM." Your opinion may be different

See http://skinorthamerica100.com/ for more and their list.
 
Wolf Creek's terrain is controversial. It is not flat but it is "benchy," meaning there are many steep pitches but they are short with intervening flats. So you should definitely check it out thoroughly to see if you would be happy there a whole season.
 
Well, I got to ride WC last week. My impressions of the area...

Fairly steep top 1/3 of the mtn, but the rest is relatively flat. I'm not sure I'd even call it "benchy". For a place that only has 1,600 ft vert, that is disappointing.

Hardly any snow in the past month, but snow quality on groomers was great (even with temps in the low 40's- yes, it was outrageously warm all week).

but... major lack of groomed runs.... probably the biggest disappointment, especially when you get long breaks between storms. I know most here like off piste stiff, and I do too... but not every day is a powder day. The stuff that was groomed were also mostly cat tracks and greenies.. so, limited bomber runs, which I enjoy. The fact that ~90% of everyone there was on the groomers reaffirms my point.

It was fairly busy when we went last Thursday (although lift lines were still very minimal)... I think it was the beginning of Texas/OK spring break.

In fairness, we didn't even go up the Alberta lift, which accesses almost half the terrain and is probably where I'd spend most of the time when there is good snow. The reason being, everyone I talked to said it was mostly boilerplate thanks to the lack of snow and softening/freeze cycle. (They don't groom anything off that lift).

So... yes, I was disappointed, but I can also see this place being a lot of fun when the snow is good. There is some nice hike-able stuff as well. I can see it being better for skiers, thanks to the hiking, traverses and flat areas, but I'm sure once I get to know the place, it will be OK... and I really hope so, as we are now in a contract now to buy a house just south of Pagosa. :shock:
 
If you haven't skied the Alberta lift then you've missed the majority of terrain worth skiing. Although very few groomers over on that side.

Although there is a long very flat run-out for the bottom of pretty much all of that terrain. If (when?) you get bored you can always day trip to Purgatory or do the occasional Silverton day.

Pagosa is a nice, but odd town. Lots and lots of sprawling random homes and neighborhoods in the last 20 years of development vs more logical 'town' building has been my impression.
 
I don't really disagree with any of your comments, EMSC. I know I missed out on a good part of the terrain at WC, and that's why I mentioned "in fairness" to my post.

Unfortunately, it seems like many ski/ towns over the past several years are having a lot of growth issues as more an more people like my wife and I (both can work from anywhere) infiltrate places that were once only accessible to the ski bum/wealthy. Some do better jobs of development than others. The good thing about Archuleta county is that about 70% of it is public land, and will likely not be developed... however, there is still a lot of open space/lots around Pagosa that if every fully developed, will likely ruin the place. It's already more sprawled that I would like... which is a big reason why the house we're buying is 20 minutes south of Pagosa on 35 acres.

And while on the topic of ski/mountain towns.... One of the things I like about Pagosa is it doesn't try to be something it isn't. It seems like a very live-able place and not as much as a "resort" town. Sure, it gets the tourists for the hot springs/ski area, etc.. but it doesn't feel like it's overrun all the time compared to most of the other places I've lived/visited. (And I've been alot of places in the last few years looking for our long term home). Teton Valley was another place I've lived that felt like that... but Pagosa has better amenities/attributes etc... albeit not as good a ski area IMO as Teton Valley (Targhee/Jackson Hole).
 
snowave":1f282cvr said:
In fairness, we didn't even go up the Alberta lift, which accesses almost half the terrain and is probably where I'd spend most of the time when there is good snow.
Anachronism spends most of his time there, and supposedly there's plenty of elbow room even during Texas spring break as the Texans are mostly on the other lifts.

snowave":1f282cvr said:
The reason being, everyone I talked to said it was mostly boilerplate thanks to the lack of snow and softening/freeze cycle. (They don't groom anything off that lift).
Wolf Creek is not immune to Southwest dry spells. The current one has lasted 6 weeks so far with no end in sight. The first half of the 2015-16 ski season was outstanding.

snowave":1f282cvr said:
I can see it being better for skiers, thanks to the hiking, traverses and flat areas, but I'm sure once I get to know the place, it will be OK.
I forgot snowave is a snowboarder. This unfortunately magnifies Wolf Creek's flaws. It is traverse/runout intensive and he will be very likely to get bogged down on powder days. I would be renting not buying if I were in snowave's shoes to see how it goes over the course of a full season. Compared to Targhee I think he will find Wolf Creek a big step down. The few alternatives accessible from Pagosa are quite flawed also.
 
Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I agree... overall it will be a downgrade on just about every level from Targhee... however, we're not just moving to the area for the skiing alone (even though I realize this is a ski forum, and that's what I was asking about). In the big picture, there are a lot of other benefits for us to move to the area, so hopefully it all balances itself out enough to be a good move for a minimum of 3 years. (We're also tired of renting, and have other reasons for buying, too... so maybe this will make us stay somewhere for a while)!
 
Hello from Driggs, ID! Can't believe I found someone who has moved to Pagosa from Teton Valley, but here you are! I have so many questions. :) So, a bit about us. Both my husband and self work from home; we've lived in lots of mountain locations in the west. I actually lived in CO for over a decade before meeting hubby in Summit Cty. We've tried the Tahoe area - like it but the drought is bad. We can't reliably put a raft in the water there, nor do you ever know if there will be snow for winter sports! Now we are in Teton Valley. We actually like it well enough, but it is so isolated (can't stand the drive down to Salt Lake for flights) and the weather isn't great. Both CO and CA have beautiful, sunny weather year-round; one gets spoiled. We can't deal with the "miz viz" at Targhee, not seeing the sun for months and the awful WIND (it is gusting like a mo fo as I type). Having said that, we do love ID! We prefer how much friendlier people are (IMO) and don't miss the chip on the shoulder, bro brah CO attitude or crowds. So, now we are alternating between McCall (doesn't solve the bad climate issue) and Pagosa. How are you liking it there? Is it over-run with tourists? What's the community like (TV community is wonderful, as you may recall)? Do the amenities seem better than TV (of course they are, the grocery store is open 7 days a week!)? Have you flown out of DGO yet, how is that? So...yeah....there are a bunch of my questions in a nut-shell and I appreciate your insight! For the record, we have been to PG many times. It was the previous contender before moving to Driggs, but we found a house we liked here better and wanted to try out ID. Wow! Thank you and cheers from Teton Valley!
 
Hey there MTN,

Sounds like we have a lot in common. I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. We've only been in Pagosa since May, so keep that in mind when reading my opinions. I also realize you may know some of these answers I've provided since you've visited many times.

We strongly considered moving back to Teton Valley after Montana, but the biggest reasons against that were the housing was getting extremely limited/expensive and yes, the wind! (So, I know what you mean about that). It is breezy here in Pagosa, but part of that is due to where we live 20 miles south of town in a bit of a wind tunnel between the mountains and open meadows. Still, it's not nearly as bad as TV. We also found TV to be a bit too conservative with the LDS influence.. not a huge deal, but it was obvious with several things, especially after we left. That would not have kept us from moving back, however if the wind and housing issues were not such a concern.

Weather... As you're probably aware, drought is always a concern anywhere in the west. However, I think Pagosa is a bit more susceptible to it than TV. We are on the edge of the San Juan Basin here... which is more or less the beginning of the expansive desert southwest.( There have always been water concerns in this area, and you have to be careful if you buy property with or without a well). Most of the time, we rely on storms that only come from the south or southwest... most other directions produce little precipitation. (Teton Valley can bring in storms from the SW and NW.)

As far as reliable rafting, I don't know if that's something you can always count on here either, but the San Juan's ( and Wolf Creek) seem to do a pretty good job at pulling in the snow... however, I think it is still more volatile than Targhee/the Tetons. (TonyC confirmed that with his snowfall stats for both ski areas). You will get more sun here for sure... nearly 300 days, vs TV's 200. That is a big reason we left Montana as Whitefish got only around 150! We didn't think Teton Valley was that bad, but that's somewhat relative for people. Both valley areas average around 20" of water a year, and roughly 100" of snow. Overall, it's warmer here in PS, but nights always get pretty cool thanks to the very dry air.

Yes, Foghee can get a bit annoying at times, but after living in Whitefish... it seemed MUCH less of a issue! I think Wolf Creek is a place where if it's cloudy, it's usually snowing...otherwise, it's often sunny. While I've only been to Wolf Creek once (last year during a dry spell).... I think Targhee blows away Wolf Creek for terrain quality/variety. But it's known to have quite a few epic powder days, and low skier density, so there is that. Wolf Creek also submitted an expansion plan last year to add a couple more lifts and terrain, so if approved... a few years from now, it could be a bit different place with more variable terrain.

The TOWN...

Pagosa's year round population is officially only around 1700.. but that's pretty misleading. The county population is upwards of 15,000... with the majority of that being within 25 miles of Pagosa. While I still feel it retains a small town vibe, it's been very busy/touristy this summer so far. (Much more so than TV was/is)... locals say it's the busiest they've ever seen. Even so, other than traffic on US 160 that runs through town, I haven't felt too overwhelmed by it. Part of that is that we live 20 miles south of town on 35 acres, but even when going to town... you can still get in and out of the stores, etc without wanting to strangle people. There is often a wait for to eat in the early evenings at many local eating places, but we've gone before or after the "rush" and not had any problems at most spots. Spring was not busy at all, and people say winter is pretty mellow here, except for the holidays and some weekends. Even when busy, it just doesn't seem all that "touristy" to me, like a Jackson or anything... but definitely moreso than TV as there is a lot more to do here than in Driggs or Victor other than get a bite to eat to/from Jackson/Yellowstone/Targhee.

I know what you mean about the CO attitude (I have lived and vacationed in Summit Co), but I've not experienced that in Pagosa at all. People are very friendly and accepting so far, and we've made friends a lot easier than in TV or many other places we've lived. There are tons of community oriented events here, and many more options than TV, IMO. It's a bit bigger community, so you might not have quite the intimacy of TV with some of those things. Same goes with amenities... many more good places to eat and shop (including 3 excellent brewpubs with great food). And while some things are closed on Sunday, it's nothing like TV. There is also Walmart that opened up a couple years ago in "uptown", which normally would be a turnoff to me in a small town, but it's a small-ish Walmart, and very nicely done... and sits back off the highway with structural mountain theme design.

The hospital in town is expanding and seems pretty well equipped. I've had some bad experiences with the primary care dept, but they are mostly billing and communication issues, not the care itself. Probably the biggest issue we've seen is getting help with our house remodeling. People in that industry here are horribly unreliable/flakey. Of course, we didn't have good experiences in TV with people in that industry either, so it's likely somewhat of a small town thing. I haven't noticed that issue with any of the other services in town, however.

My wife travels quite a bit, and she has flown out of DGO a couple times. It's about 60 min to the airport, and it's small, but effective. Winter could be a bit challenging driving during any storms, but not anything worse than going over Teton Pass to Jackson. DGO is expensive though, as you might expect... maybe even more so than JAC. My wife just chose to drive to Boulder, CO for a conference instead of fly because the rate to DEN for an hour flight was $650! Part of that is the season, and part of it is United being greedy assholes. It's a bit cheaper to fly to SLC and a few other locations. Great Lakes Air also flies out of Alamosa (2 hr drive) that is quite a bit cheaper, I think.

Pagosa is pretty isolated by most peoples standards, maybe just as much as Driggs... but Pagosa has more amenities, so it's not as noticeable to me as it was in Driggs. Durango is about 60-75 min from Pagosa proper, where you an find quite a bit more shopping/dining and a few of the big box stores (Home Depot, Super Walmart, etc).. Farmington NM is about 2 hrs away (not been there yet), and has ALL the box stores and a Sam's Club. Albuquerque NM is about 3.5 hrs and has everything. That's where we go for our quarterly Costco runs (it's only about 3 hrs from our house). CO Springs is about 4:15 and Denver about 5.5 hrs.

We also considered McCall, but it seemed even more isolated to me, (with limited amenities for being that far from anything else). The avg sunny days there are actually similar to Driggs (200 days/yr).

Overall, Pagosa has been on our list for some time... after TV, and Montana. There is no perfect place out there with everything we all want, but after renting for 5 yrs in all those other places, we finally decided to settle down here for a while based upon visits, and tons of research and comparison charts :-D . You better hurry though if you want to buy, as prices are going up here... still below many "resort town" areas though.

Feel free to PM with with more questions!

Todd
 
Very interesting insights. I recall snowave lived originally in SoCal so I get the being used to sun.
snowave":2uizht2b said:
I think Wolf Creek is a place where if it's cloudy, it's usually snowing...otherwise, it's often sunny.
This is generally true at CA, CO and UT ski areas. When I expanded my ski horizons north into interior B.C. in 1997, it's the first thing I noticed. I call it the "Great Gray North." Throw in a big lake nearby, as at Schweitzer, Whitefish or Big White and you will see a ton of fog. From a skier's perspective I like those places OK because of well spaced trees, but I suspect living in that climate would get old pretty fast. OR, ID and WY appear to be transitional zones. I think Bachelor and Jackson are fairly sunny; Targhee and the western side of the Oregon Cascades are more like "Great Gray North." I could tell by the attitude of locals in Missoula that it's firmly in the gray zone. They were elated on the sunny day I was at Montana Snowbowl in early February 2012, and they were wearing T-shirts at the local Costco.

I would assume Pagosa is a bad place for air travel as DGO rates to be an expensive airport. But it's interesting to read that in terms of day to day living it's less isolated and has more amenities than Driggs/Victor. That probably goes along with Durango being more cosmopolitan than Idaho Falls.

I'll remind snowave that he needs to return to his old TV home grounds in 2017 for the August 21 total solar eclipse. How cloudy is TV in August? I'm guessing it's likely sunnier a bit farther away from the mountains in Rexburg, or alternatively on the leeward side of the Tetons.
 
yeah, not seeing the sun all winter sucks. I love storms and clouds... just not that slate gray for 3+ months. I really didn't mind Teton Valley's sun/cloud ratio. Those 200 days of sun are spread out a lot more evenly than Leavenworth, WA 200 days of sun... I think January was the only time I remember in Teton Valley that got a couple weeks of intermittent (cloud) inversions (it was only 1 year I lived there, however). Jackson gets about 10 more days of sun a year over Driggs, but they are actually little more susceptible to inversions in the winter due to the topography.

And you're right... the transition zone of the heavy gray is roughly along the WY, Central/Southern ID line.
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/map_pv_u ... ay2004.jpg
 
Yes that map confirms my impressions but it's not the entire story. Seasonal maps would be useful. The eastern half of WA,OR gets as much PV solar radiation as SoCal/Arizona in the summer (some of that is for having longer daylight) but has some degree of the winter gray season. That's why eastern Oregon has the best August clear skies track record on next summer's eclipse path.

Most of AZ/NM see more clouds/rain in summer than winter.
 
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