Need new bindings...need some advice

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Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Sharon » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:21 pm

I was given a pair of Salomon Gun that have barely a dozen days on them by my friend. He mounted them tele and never liked'm. They are identical to my Pocket Rockets, which I love and which have nearly 100 days on them and plenty of base repairs, but nothing horrendous.

So, I'd like to keep my PRs as rock skis and need to find bindings for the newer pair.

I have Fritschi Titanal bindings on the PRs. Probably don't need 2 pairs of AT bindings, but, do I take them off the PRs and put them on the Guns and have a cheaper pair of fixed heel bindings?

or for the new skis

get a pair of Naxo02s for $179?

or

get a pair of Look Fat ski bindings for $149?

or

something else (hopefully cheaper?)

I'm on a super tight budget and dropping another $200 on gear was not in the plan (I also want a new sail...but that's for another forum, or at least another thread).

Backcountry is having a big sale right now, so I can get the Naxo's or Looks at a good price.

Whattay think?

oh, and what happened to the "General" forum? do I need to post this to the Western forum as well??
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Patrick » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:25 pm

Sharon wrote:oh, and what happened to the "General" forum? do I need to post this to the Western forum as well??


What??? I see it. :shock:

I guess Tony will have to move this thread also. :roll: :wink:
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Sharon » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:34 pm

What??? I see it.

I guess Tony will have to move this thread also.


well, I went back and looked...it wasn't there...but there was a suspicious looking link to something like "forum index". Clicked on it...voila...there it is.

I guess I was expecting to just see it, but if people can't see it right away, they probably won't bother to go there. I didn't even know it existed until 2 years into my FTO membership.

I'm just glad that the regulars seem to read all the forums.

So, anyone got any binding advice???

Or cheap bindings for sale???
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Admin » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:21 pm

Some setting must be changed in your Board Preferences (within the User Control Panel) to collapse forums or some other such nonsense. The rest of us see all forums initially by default. Look around, as I can't help you very well from a Treo.

And in case you're wondering I moved the topic.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Tony Crocker » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:01 pm

Admin is nicer than I am about leaving topics in their former locations. I don't get it. It's one click from index.php to viewforum.php?f=2 . Therefore I think all FTO users should bookmark the former page. I think Admin has done an intelligent split of topics, and we should try to keep it as clean as possible. Leaving the topic in the original location only encourages misposting in the future IMHO.

Free flowing discussions may take unexpected turns. The 2007-08 Ski Day Count was the classic example, eventually ended up in 5 different topics. That situation is understandable. All the discussions were interesting, and it took some time for the dust to settle, at which time a moderator could go in and reorganize.

But this topic clearly belonged in the equipment section from the get-go. Not intended as a personal comment at Sharon, as it sounded like she had a computer problem hiding the equipment section.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby salida » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:46 pm

Only one Naxo 02 in a medium left in stock at BC...
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby skimore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:31 am

Have a friend with the 02's and has prerelease problems. Had them torque tested at the shop OK. From what I have witnessed they don't handle the flexing of the ski well. He runs his alpine DINS on 8, but has these maxed at 10 and still has problems. More than once I've seen him pop out of these by just going through natural undulations in the trees. He 's going to dump them

Here's an instance of this and wasn't even pushing very hard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_5Cog7fDoQ
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Sharon » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:54 pm

Have a friend with the 02's and has prerelease problems. Had them torque tested at the shop OK. From what I have witnessed they don't handle the flexing of the ski well. He runs his alpine DINS on 8, but has these maxed at 10 and still has problems. More than once I've seen him pop out of these by just going through natural undulations in the trees. He 's going to dump them


I have the same problem with my Fritschis...but only when they are flexed a lot...like under 3' of snow. I was skiing towards Admin who was waiting a top a knoll (probably a large boulder, but covered with many feet of snow and 3-4 of which were fluff). It was one of the thigh-deep powder days at Alta. As I approached, my skis went down, and never came up...in a flash I was face-down in the snow. Both bindings double-ejected me when the ski flexed.

I think the solution is to get a fixed heel binding for the Guns and use the PRs with the Fritschis for touring and for rock skiing.

The only problem will be deciding which set to bring to Utah...the new ones with the fixed heel or the old ones with the AT bindings.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby salida » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:15 pm

Sharon wrote:The only problem will be deciding which set to bring to Utah...the new ones with the fixed heel or the old ones with the AT bindings.


That's easy bring both. I never leave home without at least two pairs of skis. Plus I like having my touring binders on older skis because often times I end up in sketchier (read rockier) places when I'm touring.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby skimore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:19 pm

Sharon wrote:
I have the same problem with my Fritschis...but only when they are flexed a lot...like under 3' of snow


I've never had that issue with my Freeride Plus bindings
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Admin » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:26 pm

skimore wrote:
Sharon wrote:
I have the same problem with my Fritschis...but only when they are flexed a lot...like under 3' of snow


I've never had that issue with my Freeride Plus bindings


Nor have I. Furthermore it makes no physical sense given the design of the Fritschis, as the bar that connects the heel and toe pieces will maintain a constant distance between the bindings no matter how the ski is flexed. If anything it will reduce the flexing of the ski underfoot.

I maintain now, as I did when it happened, that assuming the DIN is correctly set that the problem is more likely to be a matter of forward pressure and toe/heel unit height adjustments. Or, in this case, just plain bad form. :wink:
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby skimore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:10 pm

Not the 02's but........

by Lou Dawson
All randonee bindings allow more boot movement than good quality alpine bindings. Some skiers find this to be a trivial issue -- others take it seriously. The "one-rig" breed of randonnee bindings, comprising the Fritschi Freeride and Naxo NX01 and Naxo NX21, are the bindings most often taken to task on this issue. Yet all bindings wobble and bob, with the Naxo NX01 having slightly more movement than the Freeride (the Naxo NX21 has virtually the same stability as the Freeride. If you like the Naxo's features, but want it to equal the lateral stability of the Freeride, here is a modification that makes makes the 04/05 model Naxo NX01 equal to the Freeride.
Naxo binding with Torque Plate installed for an approximately 6% increase in torque resistance.

Torque Plate being inserted in rear of Naxo plate reails, notice rabbits milled on sides of plate, creating flanges that fit in rail slots.
When we bench tested the deflection of both bindings, I noticed that both allowed quite a bit of movement at the toe and heel, but the Naxo NX01 plate appeared to torque more, presumably due to it being two small bars arranged side-by-side and easily twisted, probably due to their having an open slote on the inside, rather than being a closed tube. It seemed that manufacturing a plate that inserted between the bars could stiffen them significantly, so we did just that.

We started with 1" x 1/4" hardware store aluminum bar stock. Using a router with a cutting guide and straight cutter, we milled two shelves (known as "rabbits" in some trades) in the sides of the stock so it would slide tightly between the Naxo plate rails, with the milled side flanges fitting the existing slots on the inside of the binding rails. We then cut the milled stock to length so it would fit in the gap between the Naxo to and heel units, once the binding was adjusted for boot length. To insert the plate, we removed the binding plate end-cap and slide the heel unit of the rails -- an easy process that only took moments. The whole project took about three hours.

Detail of custom built Torque Plate.
We measured the results using a side-by-side comparo and test rig, and found the plate beefed the Naxo to equal the torque resistance of the Fritschi Freeride.

We test randonnee backcountry skiing bindings for how solid they attach your foot to the ski (as when the cuff of the boot is tilted/pushed from side to side). While this is not as big a factor in control as some people think, it still makes a difference in how the binding “feels,” and definitely affects how well bindings ski on hard snow or ice, especially if your skis tend to flutter or chatter, and you need a binding that doesn’t exacerbate that effect.

For this evaluation I use essentially the same test rig as in my preliminary test done a while back. With the general procedure the same as detailed here, though we’re now a bit more careful, and made sure our results repeat. Results below use dashed lines as horizontal bar graph, each dash for one unit of deflection. A “unit” is simply arbitrary and only a basis for comparison, it is not a defined measure of weight or force. What I found fascinating is that the Freeride and heavy duty Naxo Nx21 (formerly known as the “Stomp”) were essentially equal to the Marker alpine binding, while the Dynafit was quite a bit more solid than anything but the Duke, even though it appears incredibly minimal. Shows you what good design can do.

Marker Duke
——————– (19 units deflection from vertical*)

Dynafit
——————– (20 units deflection from vertical)

Fritschi Freeride Plus (2006 model with black toe wings and red support plate under binding)
————————– (26 units deflection…)

Fritschi Freeride (2004 model with white toe wings)
————————— (27 units deflection…)

Marker M1100 Titanium alpine binding
—————————- (28 units deflection…)

Naxo Nx21
—————————– (29 units deflection…)

Silvretta Pure Freeride
———————————– (35 units deflection, measured virtually the same as other Pure models)

Silvretta Pure Performance
———————————— (36 units deflection, 07/08 model has solid carbon rails instead of hollow, should be slightly stiffer)

Naxo NX01
——————————————- (45 units deflection…)


*Marker Duke, when used with alpine boots could possibly be somewhat stiffer than measured here, as we used Dynafit compatible randonnee boots for all tests, and the sole of most such boots does twist more than a quality alpine boot. More, the base support of Duke is wider than any binding, and is said to thus give better edge control on wider skis. We don’t know if that’s true or not, but it sounds worth considering and could mean the real-life feel of the Duke is more solid than our chart indicates.

Due to inherent error in any mechanical testing system, I’m confident in saying the Marker alpine, Freeride and Naxo Nx21 bindings are all essentially equal in lateral twisting stiffness, while the Pure and Naxo NXO1 are clearly much looser. Marker and Dynafit are the clear winners overall — stiffer than the alpine binding and the Freeride!

The “units” above are for comparison only, they have no direct relationship to any unit of distance or weight. My gut tells me a difference of under 4 units would only be noticeable to precision skiers who could switch skis during the same run while using the same boots.

An interesting aspect of this study is the realization that if you use bindings with less flex, you might be able to use a more moderate boot and get the same performance as with a stiffer boot and flexy binding. All you stiff boot lovers might want to keep that in mind when considering Dynafit.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby icelanticskier » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:49 pm

what difference does some binder deflection or ski set up make when yer goin to ski the greatest snow on earth. take two pair so if ya bust somethin, ya gotta backup but don't worry about which. i'd be more concerned with width for float on as opposed to sinkin down in (what fun is that when fat's where it's at). a tourning binder/skin setup will only allow you more options and shouldn't hinder you in the perfect snow at the resorts out there.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Sharon » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:07 am

both. I never leave home without at least two pairs of skis.


I bring 2 pairs...but one is for if the surfaces are more packed and solid...and that would be my X-Scream (x-hot), plus the phat ski. However, I cannot bring 3 pairs. I think I would prefer the safety and security of a fixed heel for most of my skiing though, so I am putting more weight on the fixed heel option.

When I go to Utah, there is always a chance I may go backcountry...especially if I go for a full month...then it may make sense to bring all 3...but I probably would just bring the PRs with the Fritschis as I always do and leave the newer Guns at home...and who knows...if I am in Utah for a month...I may want a big-mountain ski...and that would be the ski that I leave in Utah so I won't have to schlep it every year.

I need to find a 2nd job...probably for the fall...to support my ski habit.
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Re: Need new bindings...need some advice

Postby Tony Crocker » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:06 pm

I'd bring the Guns and the touring skis and leave the X-Screams at home. There's a strong skiing NASJA couple from Reno that used Pocket Rockets as an everyday ski. I'm pretty sure the Guns will be versatile enough for Utah.
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