why bump skiers rule

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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby riverc0il » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:13 pm

regarding weight distribution on the backside, i suspect it would be pretty even - uphill and downhill - if i read your question correctly. kinda hard to imagine just sitting here.

fwiw, i think the guys flying over the tops of all the moguls are rediculous. but who am i to judge if that's how they enjoy skiing the bumps? sorry to really hammer this one home, but i think the guys who ski the bumps the best are usually the guys with the biggest :D 's regardless of how they do it. i some guy is whotting and hollaring and laughing his tail off, good for him. i prefer to ski with a little more style and technique and i think that increases my enjoyment. but folks enjoy skiing different ways and good for everyone for finding out how they enjoy to get down the hill the best that works for them. what i see evolving here is a 'zipper line or bust' philosophy in which apparently everyone that doesn't ski bumps with zipper line forum (by choice, habit, or lack of lessons or whatever) apparently is a crappy bump skier that is waisting their time. i would really love to ski with some of you guys and take some lines in which a zipper line just isn't an option (like in tight trees) and have some fun.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Ryan » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:49 pm

joegm wrote:What up JG AND DD.
Ryan , again, I don?t know you and I?m sure you are a good guy, but you are hanging yourself with your own rope. You can?t sit there and post that you are a bump skiing instructor and actually say _
? you can go top to top and spend most of your time in the air ?
that could be the single most ridiculous assertion I have ever heard on firsttracks!!!
dude, that comment even exceedes anything in the nov issue of ski mag on the baloney meter. that assertion is so rotten i can smell it over the internet :D
i defy you to tell me how you can ski rock solid east coast bumps flipping and skipping from top to top. you can't... and no one can for any sustained period of time. unfortunately, i think you are part of the problem. telling people/students that this is a legit way to try and negotiate a mogul line only ends up contributing to people frustrations becasue it is a formula for failure... and if you are doing that, it's a shame... it's not helping us in this mogul war long term.... it is physically impossible to do and cosmetically, since you brought up this idea of looking smooth and not fighting your skis, top bashing bumps is about the ugliest thing i can think of on skis. you want smooth? go to skidebosses.com and look for dale begg smith from down under. that's smooth skiing my friend.
the only way to effectively ski bumps is layed out by john smart in his smartmogulskiing video and supplemented in print very well by dan dipiro in his book. anyone looking to even try to ski moguls even 10% of the time they ski, is wasting their time with anything else like the ski mag article pablum or boot advice about skipping over the bumps :evil: ( back satan back :wink: ) ... PSIA lessons for the most part , included. i'm sorry but the truth hurts sometimes





Well I suppose I'll use this one for my multitude of responses.... :D

I don't take it personally at all and frankly I like there being a passonate discussion here.. so here are a few points of clarification.


Top top top in large and or steep bumps is suicide. I never meant it to be taken as that but in small shallow bumps on a mild pitch it is a blast to just launch bump after bump.

Second I agree that a tight stance is the only way to go if you are looking to be smooth in a zipper line. Or fast for that matter

I have not nor will I make one comment about the book as I have not read it.

My personal style of bump skiing I really enjoy being more free form as long as I have the open space to do it. I like watching 5-7 bumps out in front of me and constantly switching things up. I may run zipper for 5 bumps then swith lines right or left. I like catching a little air in the middle of a bump run if I see a clear launch and landing. I don't enjoy going terribly fast in steep nasty bumps. I like my knees more than that and frankly am not confident enough to go blazing down the Outer Limits like a bat out of hell. I do however love a combination or ziper here and there mixed with carving over a couple of back sides and switching lines.

If you are all saying that zipper is the only way to move then I have to continue to disagree. more over what have meant from the beginning of this whole thing is that in ALL forms of skiing I feel that the mark of excellence is someone who can be stable and adaptive when faced with any situation. There is no single way to ski that works on all surfaces/steepness/snow condition/ and or trees. Anyone who things there is I want to hear an explination of how.

BTW where is the easiest place to get my hands on this book?
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Ryan » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:11 pm

Nevermind that last bit.... I just bought a copy off of Dan DiPiro's web site. We'll see if it is everything it is cracked up to be.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:05 am

joegm wrote:i know this is probably going to drvie mark nuts since it's probably in the wrong section, but just becasue it's already started.
jim and dan and anyone else who wants to chime in:
what are your contentions about weight distribution / stacking in % terms when coming down the backside. in other words, what percentage of your weight, if one assumes all your weight totals 100%, do you try and put on the downhill ski after you roll your knee and the lead change takes place and extension is happening, coming down the back side.? this was a pretty good topic of discussion this year at sms camp. i'm curious as to your opinions. i couldn't find it articulated in the book DD. if you are not sure what i am asking, post up and i'll try and re-phrase it.


I understand your question joe...I think Dan did kind of address it in the section where he discusses why it is so important to keep your feet together. Not only is it for aesthetic appeal (it looks good) and for maximizing the benefits of absorption and extension, but keeping the feet together actually helps facilitate the rapid fire rotary powered turns necessary to stay in the fall line. Essentially, one foot helps the other get those skis around faster.

As I think about that and visualize how my skis work when I'm skiing bumps I see that weight distribution would be essentially 50-50 as opposed to the 75-25 or 80-20 you would see in a carved groomed trail turn. Perhaps it varies between 50-50 and 60-40, but I can't visualize any more than a 60% weight dominance on the downhill ski.

When my bump technique is really clicking, my legs and feet feel like one mass that is moving in 3 dimensions as I turn through the bumps. It's hard for me to think about my weight being more on one foot than the other when I'm skiing like that, so that's why I'm voting for 50-50.

Dan?
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:42 am

this is why people can't ski bumps
#1 river- i couldn't disagree more that the debate should be framed as fall line vs. , well i don't know exactly to be honest with you, i'll assume it's something about skiing around the bumps. but whatever, i get your point. no, you don't have to zipper line every line. zipper lining becomes a relative term... there is always a more straight line, in theory. in fact, i'm kind of from the old school and don't like as much the trend towards the more straight, i would call it "staircasing," of the line. we are getting real technical here but i like more of the early 90's jean luc brassard, big angulated turns, with super absorption. but again were are talking style here. vs technique... there is only one proper technique, and anyone who advocates differently is wrong. and one of the basic tenatns fo that technique is "feel the snow" skis on the snow as much as possible. air america technique, ( if you can call it a technique ) of mogul skiing is a dive bombimg plane coming in for a crash landing. no survivors :D you don't have to ski the proper technique, but if you don't your not skiing correctly. and i don't think that contention is offensive. it certainly is not offensive in the alpine racing contect.. why is it so offensive in the mogul context...because bumps are not too be taken as serious as the almighty alpine race discipline :shock: ? frankly i think that has a lot to do with it. if you take a psia lesson for just general skiing, they are gonna tell you to do certain things and they are going to tell you if you are doing them correctly or not. there are certain basic priciples that are proven correct... so logically, not doing those things is incorrect.... why is bump skiing any different... i'll tell you why.. becasue it's too hard for most people, or so they perceive. i believe it ends up being too hard because people are not taught FROM THE BEGINNING the proper approach and fundamentals that will allow them to be effective long term. it's easier to learn these short term fixes that psia advocates, that only have any chance of being temporarlily effective in small bumps with perfect packed powder... yeah were have a ton of days and terrain like that in the east for sure. :roll: . so again, the debate , imo , is not about fall line vs whatever. the technique is the same. just like the basic technique doesn't or shouldn't change in racing gates.
and the weight distirbution question is one that tricked me for the first few years i tried to ski bumps, again , due to bad information from psia instructors. i was like you. the illusion is it's 50 / 50. i believe that at this point, it is impossible to effectively ski bumps trying to keep it 50/50. i think think it's about 85 to 95% on the downhill ski. trying to ski with 50/50. i found , would cause a maddening slight separation of my knees when striking front side of the mogul. and regardless of why ryan says, it is just wrong to try and ski bumps without your feet and knees being pinned together. i labored with this for a couple of years. and think i have it figured out, but again i'm still not that good and want to hear DD and JG"S take.
ryan, you are adding facts after the fact. how was anyone supposed to assume you meant small bumps for the air america technique. small bumps should be approached the same as large bumps, technique wise. ( i think i'm gonna invent a new way to flat ski and have my poles hang down by my sides 100% of the time. anyone out there ready to buy into that "personalized- it works for me technique ".? )
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Steve and Ryan,

When you watch World Cup bumpers, how do they ski? Are they skiing every other bump or trying to carve big turns? No, they're in the zipper cranking turns. These guys are the world's best bumpers, and their style is the one we should all aspire to.

That said, I do not mean to say that if you don't ski the zipper all the time or never that you're a crappy bump skier. Dan is not a zipper Nazi either. He will tell you that is the real way to ski bumps, and he is right because it's the way that world class competitors do it. But that's not the point of this book.

The book fills a void in the ski teaching process. PSIA does a poor job of teaching bump technique. I know, I've been teaching for going on 20 years and I've seen some terribly disappointed bump students. I'm not a world class bumper, I don't even compete in local events. But I can take one of those disappointed students and make them much happier by spending some time teaching them the skills Dan writes about.

If you're going to tell me you're not using a tall stance at all, that you never absorb and extend, that you don't keep your feet close together in bumps, then I'll tell you without much hesitation that you're a crappy bump skier. If you do those things relatively well but like to ski slow and put a little more carve into your turn, that you don't like skiing the fall line at 30mph in bumps, then I'll tell you your an expert skier who skis bumps well but who could probably improve even more if you practiced.

That's what the book is about; you should both read it because I know you're both into good skiing. This is good stuff.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:57 am

joegm wrote:and the weight distirbution question is one that tricked me for the first few years i tried to ski bumps, again , due to bad information from psia instructors. i was like you. the illusion is it's 50 / 50. i believe that at this point, it is impossible to effectively ski bumps trying to keep it 50/50. i think think it's about 85 to 95% on the downhill ski. trying to ski with 50/50. i found , would cause a maddening slight separation of my knees when striking front side of the mogul. and regardless of why ryan says, it is just wrong to try and ski bumps without your feet and knees being pinned together. i labored with this for a couple of years. and think i have it figured out, but again i'm still not that good and want to hear DD and JG"S take.


Well, I was no help I guess. I said 50-50, 60-40 at most. Do you really feel it's 85-95% on the downhill ski? It sounds counter-intuitive, but I'm just guessing because I've never really thought about it before.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:27 am

jimmy,
it was killing my buddy and i for the last 3 years.. the language that was used was " you have to get over your downhill hill ski more " and "you are to far banked back into the hill ".. 2 summers ago we had scott belevance of team canada show us something. we were at the top of a steep flat. he told us to burn 10 moderate to tight turns down to him. when we would arrive at him and stop , skis across the hill, he would push us in the chest. and what would happen? it was so easy for him to push us back over into the hill. why, he told us that we were standing banked back into the hill on the uphill ski . now whether we were 50/50 in that stopped position, or like i found i was with about 70 % on the uphill ski :roll: , even being 50 50 was not enough for me to maintain my balance when he gave me a slight push backwards. because the slope of the hill makes that 50 50 illusional... he told us that if he could push us back that easily just standing still , how easy was it going to be to get pushed back by a bump. his point was were were not committing enough to the fall line.
now this gets complicated becasue i agree with the general theory that bumpers do not carve in the sense that alpiners do. we don't grind out our turns for sure. but there is a definte edge set that i believe happens that i say , is a quick carve. whether it's a true carve that has the tip and tail eventually all going throught he same line, that's probably not the case. but imo , a solid edge set takes place when that weight shift occours on the top of the mogul.
my buddy and i were weight shifting too early , like on the front side too early and this lack of timing was killing us.
we did a drill at camp that effectively is a j turn through the bumps. if you think about a j turn drill, close if not all to 100 % of your weight , is on the what? the down hill ski.
i know this is hard to see , just sitting on yor ass and not out on skis believe me. but i think this is a huge key to this. even if in one's mind's eye this is not what people do. i have labored for a long time trying to keep my knees pinned together. i firmly believe that this is critical . stacking the crap ( at least 85% out of that downhill ski on the backside and up the frontside of the next bump i think is how the world cuppers do it. and if you slow down and freeeze frame video , it gets really clear. the girls are easier to seethis on because they are not as obsessed wqith staircasing as of yet :roll: the weight shift is obviously lighting quick at the crest. but i do believe that this is how it is done.
back to that j turn drill. smarts coaches showed us how they can ski , esentially on one ski down through a bump ( backside to trough to front side ) then shift at the top and repeat it on the new downhill ski. skiing on one ski obviously means you have 100% of your weight on the downhill ski. ( and if your are on your toes or balls of your feet in this, your hip is stacked on the downhill inside edge as it should be) . they would do this by holding their up hillski 3 or 4 inches off the ground.. just like in a j turn drill on flats. their point is, if you have any significant weight on that uphill ski you are banked back into the hill, not forward and committed like you need to be to the fall line. and being banked back, they believe, does not allow for an efficient process of knee roll to weight shift.
your thoughts please
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:41 am

Joe,

Now I see better what you are saying. The key was the drill where you made 10 tight turns and stopped and got a shove in the chest. 50-50 won't work in a drill like that.

I think I made the mistake of visualizing your comments on flats instead of steeps too. Once you throw the pitch into the equation, the downhill ski dominance is more obvious.

The stacking issue makes sense too. 50-50 is going to get you thrown into the backseat; there goes any semblance of stacking and now you're sitting on your ass instead of standing tall.

I need to get out there and make some turns soon.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:46 am

the beauty of this approach , as i see it now J, is that i think it can be practiced even on flats... i think most everyone is lacking in 1) being forward and 2) being stacked... whether on flats on in the bumps. i am convinced this is a major key to expert level bumping... don't let this die.. i'm dying to to hear what you think after being on snow
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:01 am

joegm wrote:i think most everyone is lacking in 1) being forward and 2) being stacked... whether on flats on in the bumps. i am convinced this is a major key to expert level bumping... don't let this die.. i'm dying to to hear what you think after being on snow


Yup, whether it's in bumps or wherever, just about everyone needs to focus more on staying forward and standing tall. Too many folks rely on muscle power when their skeleton is so much better at resisting the forces they encounter when turning.

This isn't going to die, don't worry. There's a bigger picture here, it's time to open alot of eyes.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:02 am

i see how it could be a little confusing.. i've bought into smart's way of terrain talk... when i say flat- i don't mean pitch, i mean non bumped terrain. when i want to refer to pitch i say steep. :wink:
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Ryan » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:08 am

JimG. wrote:
The book fills a void in the ski teaching process. PSIA does a poor job of teaching bump technique. I know, I've been teaching for going on 20 years and I've seen some terribly disappointed bump students. I'm not a world class bumper, I don't even compete in local events. But I can take one of those disappointed students and make them much happier by spending some time teaching them the skills Dan writes about.


Well after so much talk about it I can't wait to get my hands on this ook and read it. Here is my question for you Jim. How do you suspect my Ski School director is going to react to me ( an instructor of only 3 years) going out on a limb and starting to incorporate some of this into my day to day teaching? Secondly I plan to go for a Level 2 Skiing exam in Feb. If I move in this direction do you think I am risking failing my L2 just by moving my skiing into a direction that PSIA does not go for even if it makes me stronger in the bumps.... which BTW you nailed before in your comment:
JimG. wrote: If you do those things relatively well but like to ski slow and put a little more carve into your turn, that you don't like skiing the fall line at 30mph in bumps, then I'll tell you your an expert skier who skis bumps well but who could probably improve even more if you practiced.


I am confident and comfortable in the bumps but not nearly as much as I am on a steep groomer or even in the trees. It is the area of my skiing in which I have the most room for improvement. Soooooo.... the long and short of this question is do you feel that working on assimilating this form as well as PSIA form is going to submarine my L2 and eventually L3 aspirations?
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:19 am

not that you asked me, but i would say print out this whole thread, put it on your bosses desk and then do what they tell you to do to get your certification so you can keep making money. then you just have to answer in your own conscience whether to keep advocating methods to students that are wrong.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:29 am

Ryan wrote:
JimG. wrote:
The book fills a void in the ski teaching process. PSIA does a poor job of teaching bump technique. I know, I've been teaching for going on 20 years and I've seen some terribly disappointed bump students. I'm not a world class bumper, I don't even compete in local events. But I can take one of those disappointed students and make them much happier by spending some time teaching them the skills Dan writes about.


Well after so much talk about it I can't wait to get my hands on this ook and read it. Here is my question for you Jim. How do you suspect my Ski School director is going to react to me ( an instructor of only 3 years) going out on a limb and starting to incorporate some of this into my day to day teaching? Secondly I plan to go for a Level 2 Skiing exam in Feb. If I move in this direction do you think I am risking failing my L2 just by moving my skiing into a direction that PSIA does not go for even if it makes me stronger in the bumps.... which BTW you nailed before in your comment:
JimG. wrote: If you do those things relatively well but like to ski slow and put a little more carve into your turn, that you don't like skiing the fall line at 30mph in bumps, then I'll tell you your an expert skier who skis bumps well but who could probably improve even more if you practiced.


I am confident and comfortable in the bumps but not nearly as much as I am on a steep groomer or even in the trees. It is the area of my skiing in which I have the most room for improvement. Soooooo.... the long and short of this question is do you feel that working on assimilating this form as well as PSIA form is going to submarine my L2 and eventually L3 aspirations?


Ryan, I'm not going to lie to you...it just might screw you royally. But that would only be if you were to trumpet your newfound skills to folks who definitely don't want to hear any of it. Learn and practice. Show what you've learned to your students, they'll appreciate it and they'll be happy.
You'll get referrals. Those are the things that count in the teaching process.

Examiners don't want to see you ski bumps this way on exams. I know, I failed level III skiing several times only to be told by more than 1 examiner that I was the best freeskier/bump skier in the group. Dan will back me up on this. It's a sin.

So, don't try to change the PSIA world on your own. Show them what they want to see on the exams and you'll pass. That's the way it is on just about any exam you take...they want to see and hear what they want to see and hear.

Check out Dan's blog for alot more on this topic.
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