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why bump skiers rule

Seek and dispense advice regarding snowsports technique at The Ski School.

Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Dan DiPiro » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:35 am

JimG. wrote: ...what about all those lessons taught in the past using the older model? What does the instructor say to the student he/she taught last season using groomed trail techniques and who now needs to learn new techniques and unlearn old teaching?


Good point, Jim. No, it's not easy to say, "Whoops, hey, sorry, we all changed our minds about that" and to sound professional doing it.

But a little Ralph Waldo Emerson could help them get around that; "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...."

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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:59 am

Dan DiPiro wrote:Good point, Jim. No, it's not easy to say, "Whoops, hey, sorry, we all changed our minds about that" and to sound professional doing it.

-Dan


It is tough...but if done well and with conviction, it could be a marketing windfall for the ski teaching profession. I think people respect organizations who say, "Look, we figured out a way to do this that's alot better than what we did in the past...let us show you".
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Ryan » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:34 am

JimG. wrote: I think people respect organizations who say, "Look, we figured out a way to do this that's alot better than what we did in the past...let us show you".


I agree with this completely...
That way there does not have to be any loss of face or respectability but the organization gets the benefit of moving forward and expanding horizons. I can't wait for the season to get going around here so I can try out some things on my own skiing. I always have to do that forst before I can be even think about putting it on front of a student. It may not even happen until later in the season because I want to clean myself up first.
So Dan... you accept the validity of the PSIA race based model on open groomed snow. My question is then how would you approach the transition from groomed to bumps and back again? How would you present this transition to a student? Do you feel that it can be bade fluidly without a pause or stop or is it easier to stop before the bumps and regroup? Jim do you have any thoughts on this?
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:10 am

Ryan wrote:So Dan... you accept the validity of the PSIA race based model on open groomed snow. My question is then how would you approach the transition from groomed to bumps and back again? How would you present this transition to a student? Do you feel that it can be bade fluidly without a pause or stop or is it easier to stop before the bumps and regroup? Jim do you have any thoughts on this?


Skiing bumps and skiing groomers are 2 different things and that's the way I approach how to teach each one. I don't try to combine them in one lesson. However, I start out with new bump students on flat (using joegm's definition, bumpless) terrain and practice things like the home posture and rotary powered turning there. Then we try to scope out some smaller, low angle bumps to ski on next. Only after there is some comprehension do we even try to ski on steeper bumps.

It's important to let the student know there is a difference between the two and that the techniques they will learn are for skiing bumps, but I do not bore them with details about skiing models or technical issues (unless they ask).
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Dan DiPiro » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:52 am

JimG. wrote:
Ryan wrote:So Dan... you accept the validity of the PSIA race based model on open groomed snow. My question is then how would you approach the transition from groomed to bumps and back again? How would you present this transition to a student? Do you feel that it can be bade fluidly without a pause or stop or is it easier to stop before the bumps and regroup? Jim do you have any thoughts on this?


Skiing bumps and skiing groomers are 2 different things and that's the way I approach how to teach each one. I don't try to combine them in one lesson. ... It's important to let the student know there is a difference between the two and that the techniques they will learn are for skiing bumps.


I agree with Jim here, and would add that the mogul student should be a fit, advanced-level groomed-trail skier to start with. Then you take that skier and say, "okay, here are the special techniques you should use in the bumps."

On another note... I was just thinking that, if the PSIA ever did say, "whoops, we got bump skiing wrong and now need to learn from the mogul skiers," that learning would take some time. Guys like you, JimG (genuine bump skier working in a traditional ski school) and like Ryan's boss (the old pro bumper) are very rare. So most ski schools would not be equipped to suddenly start teaching mogul techniques.

I think the first step would be for ski schools to just see and admit to the limits of the groomed-trail model, take a step back and say "no, I'm sorry, we don't teach mogul skiing here; we're mainly in the business of teaching groomed-trail skills," when aspiring bumpers come calling for a lesson. Then instructors could slowly build their mogul skiing and mogul teaching skills from there.

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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Admin » Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:25 pm

BTW, an excerpt from JimG's review of Dan's book has been included in our 2005 Holiday Ski & Snowboard Gift Guide published today:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/giftguide2005.shtm

The full review will follow in the coming weeks.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:51 am

Admin wrote:BTW, an excerpt from JimG's review of Dan's book has been included in our 2005 Holiday Ski & Snowboard Gift Guide published today:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/giftguide2005.shtm

The full review will follow in the coming weeks.


Did the summary of my review kill this thread :lol: ?

Been out on snow a few days now; it amazes me how anal resorts have gotten about mowing down bumps. As soon as a decent line of more than 10 turns forms it gets blasted away. I get bored practicing on flat terrain.

I find that my feet get a bit lazy when there are no bumps, then when we finally get a few decent bump lines going I feel slow, a step behind for a few runs.

Part of it is me getting older, but does anyone have a good drill for flat terrain that emphasizes foot speed? Anything other than the old PSIA 1000 turns?
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby HDHaller » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:32 am

This is a great thread.
H.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:48 am

Here's a thought for all you bumpers:

I was skiing with sheahunter this past weekend and we were discussing poles; I always listen to sheahunter because he is the finest bump skier that I ski with regularly. He told me to keep my elbows tight in to my body, that I should actually feel my elbows against my torso.

This is an example of where bump technique goes against PSIA doctrine, where you're told to keep your elbows up and away from your body. I don't know if it's just because it seemed new and strange to me or what, but I really struggled to keep my elbows in tight. They kept flying away from my body like wings.

Anyway, the reason given for keeping those elbows tight was to facilitate stacking, i.e. keeping shoulders, hips, and knees aligned over feet. It seemed harder for me to stay stacked when I kept my elbows in tight, but that may just be because I'm not used to it and I was concentrating too much on my poles and arms.

I'd like to hear some feedback.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:51 am

HDHaller wrote:This is a great thread.
H.


Please, join in with any feedback you may have.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:12 pm

Jim, I saw this a while ago but wanted to get on hill and put it into action first?
I ?m not following. I was a little suspect when I read it but wasn?t sure. One of my main issues is being foreward.. let?s be honest , it?s probably 99 % of the problem for everyone. Whether up top or down below. Having my arms touching my torso makes me feel less committed to being ? foreward ??I played around with it for a few hours but just can?t buy into it. Now I could be misinterpreting the read and not doing what Allan actually says, but I?m not getting it at this time. To me , it doesn?t jive with off hand drive. I constantly am trying to drive my just un-planted hand down the line. I can?t justify this action in my head and at the same time keep my elbow in tight. Look at the link here on the W cuppers?I just don?t see a tight elbow in on the torso. http://skidebosses.com/2006/cm01ti/cm01ti.htm

In my mind, the idea of keeping them in tight, at the very least , makes you neutral in terms of committing to the line? and at the worst puts you back. I don?t know what do you think.
Do you and allen have john smart?s video?
Did youor allen have a chance to think about that 80 to 90% of the weight on the downhill ski thing? Our theory is this. After weightshift and knee roll at the crest, 90 % of the weight has to instantaneously shift to the downhill ski. That edge is rode down backside AND UP FRONTSIDE to the crest where the weight shift to the new downhill happens?my buddy and I think we have been shifting to early, early like front side . we think we do this , in a way, to speed check. The results have been knee separation after striking the front side. When we super slow mo smarts video, these guys clearly are riding their down hill ski on backside and frontside of the bumps. Not sure it you have had any bumps yet. Let me know. I?ll put his up on DD?s site too to see if it gets any hits
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:13 pm

Jim, I saw this a while ago but wanted to get on hill and put it into action first?
I ?m not following. I was a little suspect when I read it but wasn?t sure. One of my main issues is being foreward.. let?s be honest , it?s probably 99 % of the problem for everyone. Whether up top or down below. Having my arms touching my torso makes me feel less committed to being ? foreward ??I played around with it for a few hours but just can?t buy into it. Now I could be misinterpreting the read and not doing what Allan actually says, but I?m not getting it at this time. To me , it doesn?t jive with off hand drive. I constantly am trying to drive my just un-planted hand down the line. I can?t justify this action in my head and at the same time keep my elbow in tight. Look at the link here on the W cuppers?I just don?t see a tight elbow in on the torso. http://skidebosses.com/2006/cm01ti/cm01ti.htm

In my mind, the idea of keeping them in tight, at the very least , makes you neutral in terms of committing to the line? and at the worst puts you back. I don?t know what do you think.
Do you and allen have john smart?s video?
Did youor allen have a chance to think about that 80 to 90% of the weight on the downhill ski thing? Our theory is this. After weightshift and knee roll at the crest, 90 % of the weight has to instantaneously shift to the downhill ski. That edge is rode down backside AND UP FRONTSIDE to the crest where the weight shift to the new downhill happens?my buddy and I think we have been shifting to early, early like front side . we think we do this , in a way, to speed check. The results have been knee separation after striking the front side. When we super slow mo smarts video, these guys clearly are riding their down hill ski on backside and frontside of the bumps. Not sure it you have had any bumps yet. Let me know. I?ll put his up on DD?s site too to see if it gets any hits
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:22 pm

Joe, I gave up on the "elbows to the torso" drill myself for the same reason...I kept getting in the backseat and felt uncommitted to the lines I'm skiing.

As for the weight shift, I totally agree with your analysis now that I've thought about it while skiing. 85% of my weight is on the downhill ski as I'm coming down the backside of the mogul and transitioning through the trough to the frontside of the next bump. The weight shift to the new downhill ski occurs on the crest and weight may be momentarily equal at that point, but almost instantaneously goes 85% dominant to the new downhill ski. Keeping more weight on the uphill ski happens when I'm uncommitted or going too fast and need to scrub speed. My buddy watching me could tell when I was doing that because my form was noticeably compromised.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:59 pm

yeah, now if i could only start doing it consistently... i skied like crap this week. i was reaching so far outside the box with my right foot and not being patient coming down backside... it was killing me :evil:
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:15 pm

joegm wrote:yeah, now if i could only start doing it consistently... i skied like crap this week. i was reaching so far outside the box with my right foot and not being patient coming down backside... it was killing me :evil:


There was finally a decent bump line this week...the freestyle team set up a short course using poles. They chose a soft berm on the side of a trail (Minya Konka) and it bumped up quick and stayed nice all day. It could be skiied using just absorption and extention.

Not surprisingly, I felt good after a few passes and finally started feeling like my skis were under me. I'm sure it's been mowed down though :cry: .
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