why bump skiers rule

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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:08 am

And yet so many skiers list skiing bumps better as their main goal that it seems odd that mogul skiing isn't viewed as mainstream. If more than a third of your students wanted to learn something, wouldn't you consider that mainstream?

Shows you what marketing hype and politics can do to screw things up.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby cj » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:51 am

JimG. wrote:And yet so many skiers list skiing bumps better as their main goal that it seems odd that mogul skiing isn't viewed as mainstream. If more than a third of your students wanted to learn something, wouldn't you consider that mainstream?

Shows you what marketing hype and politics can do to screw things up.


That stat is amazing... I never knew that. So many resorts groom their hills to death... but if mogul skiing becomes more popular, there will be more and better bump runs. Then, those of us who were not Johnny Come Lately's can reap the benefits! I think too that most people just want to be able to ski bumps "instructor style" and not necessarily zipper line, which is a bummer (since it causes cross troughed bumps).

I wish I could just say "F" it and move to WP and ski Mary Jane for the rest of my life. If the day comes that MJ starts to get groomed, we are in real trouble! Now that is a place where every run has perfect, non cross troughed lines. Why, because there are nothing but good/great bump skiers out there.

I will at least spend my winters out there when I retire... if it is still a bump skiers mountain. But that is a long ways off. I figure I should be able to handle bump skiing into my 60s... I hope.

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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Dan DiPiro » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:17 am

cj wrote:
JimG. wrote: If more than a third of your students wanted to learn something...


That stat is amazing... I never knew that... I think too that most people just want to be able to ski bumps "instructor style" and not necessarily zipper line...

I wish I could just say "F" it and move to WP and ski Mary Jane for the rest of my life....

cj


CJ,
When you teach them the right techniques, this 1/3 of the mainstream, so far as my on-snow lessons have proved, loves the zipper line. It's traditional instruction that has made students ski bumps like instructors.

I never once had a student say, "Oh, hey, wait a minute. I wanted to learn to loop gently down the bumps, back and forth across the fall line. I'd prefer to not ski like a real bumper." The overwhelming response I received: "So, this is how you guys do it!" (Said with a smile.)

So, what keeps you from moving to mogul country?

Funny list of reasons why bumpers don't rule. :-)

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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby cj » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:39 am

CJ,
When you teach them the right techniques, this 1/3 of the mainstream, so far as my on-snow lessons have proved, loves the zipper line. It's traditional instruction that has made students ski bumps like instructors.

I never once had a student say, "Oh, hey, wait a minute. I wanted to learn to loop gently down the bumps, back and forth across the fall line. I'd prefer to not ski like a real bumper." The overwhelming response I received: "So, this is how you guys do it!" (Said with a smile.)


I guess that I made the mistake of generalizing what I have seen here locally, as our instructors don't have a clue and have no interest in learning or teaching it the "right way". It is great to know that in your experience when most skiers are exposed to the knowledge that they respond so favorably. Our sport really needs so many more instructors like yourself to spread the "truth".

I have a friend that is a really strong skier and can ski bumps, but not with the technique that most "bumpers" use. I talked him into going to camp one winter and he still is not that interested in improving his bump skiing or skiing like a "bump skier". From what you have said, I beleive that he is an isolated case. But I think that he knows that he will really have to work at it and is not willing to put in the time, eventhough he skis 50+ days a year. I don't know that I blame him since he skis mostly out west and would rather ski powder and steeps.

So, what keeps you from moving to mogul country?


Me and my wife have too much invested in our lives here (good jobs, house, family, etc.) to risk it all by moving to WP. I don't think that I could make a decent living out there. My brother lived in Vail for 5 years and it was a struggle for him to have a decent life out there life aside from skiing. Plus it is sort of a hard sell since my wife doesn't ski. But some day I will spend my entire winters out there. I will be there in a month though and I am psyched about that.

Funny list of reasons why bumpers don't rule. :-)


Thanks! I figured that I would add a little humor.

Thanks for shedding some light on my skewed views and lets hope for some colder weather and snow!

Take Care,

cj
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Tony Crocker » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:45 am

Dan DePiro's point #3 is the reason that top mogul skiers can translate their skills to other types of skiing. That 3rd dimension is the reason powder skiing has a slow learning curve for some of us.

I'm not so sure Mary Jane's moguls are unique out here. I think it's just that bump runs make up a disproportionate fraction of WP's black-rated terrain. I think you get longer and/or steeper fall lines of bumps at Sun Valley, Taos, Spiral Stairs/Kant-Mak-M at Telluride, Prima/Pronto/Highline at Vail, the whole face of Bell at Aspen, Gunbarrel at Heavenly, KT-22 at Squaw, etc.

I'm not sure why you eastern bump aficionados aren't hanging out at MRG. It was wall-to-wall moguls when I was there, and the average level of ski ability was as high as as I've seen anywhere. But perhaps like me most of you like your moguls soft, as they were on that 60 degree day.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:35 pm

Tony Crocker wrote:I'm not sure why you eastern bump aficionados aren't hanging out at MRG. It was wall-to-wall moguls when I was there, and the average level of ski ability was as high as as I've seen anywhere. But perhaps like me most of you like your moguls soft, as they were on that 60 degree day.


MRG is my favorite eastern destination, and you're right that it has lots of bumps. It's nice to see one ski area that doesn't groom too much or mow down bumps as soon as they form. And you're also correct that the ski ability level there is superior; the bump lines are always consistent, amazing considering how little they groom. Good skiers make good bump lines.

But when I go to MRG I seem to spend 90% of my time in the woods.
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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby joegm » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:40 pm

yesterday at loon mtn in NH , the freshly seeded bumps( about 72 hours old is my best guess) on a relatively steep line, were in the best shape i have ever seen them in in my 8 years of skiing overall and skiing at loon, since that is where i learned to ski...no a spec of so called " ice " anywhere in or around them.. perfect wet packed snow and temps of about 45F.. this was set up by the weather.. and while the extended view of this situation makes for not good news in terms of snow melt and the inevitable freeze that will come, the 1 day report on the snow was the best day of skiing bumps i have ever had at loon...and despite this " epic " day of epic conditions, my buddies and i did not see one instructor out there working on anything at all in regards to bumps either by themselves for thier own improvement or with a class.. how do we know this.. becasue we are nuts and we stop and talk to everyone who we think may show any inclination at all to ski bumps.. there were plenty of " i'll give that a try " folks who were able to make it down due to the ideal conditions and there were a few people who were ok or at least thought they were ok :wink: bumps skiers, but they were clearly not instructors. but there were plenty of fast skiing super g heel turning, x screaming, 15 mm riser platebindings, 25 to 50 year olds out there "ripping" up the soft cream cheese corduroy :roll: . we saw not one single instructor all day long in flume line.. in all the time we were there a solid 5 and a half hours, we skied about 30 runs in the 80 bump course with 45 min for lunch and saw not one, not a single solitary person employed by the ski school on what was for loon, one of the no more than 5 days a year that that line will be in the shape it was in, skiing bumps...incredible :roll: :? :shock:
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Dan DiPiro » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:27 am

joegm wrote: yesterday at loon mtn in NH , the freshly seeded bumps( about 72 hours old is my best guess) on a relatively steep line, were in the best shape i have ever seen them...


Joe,

Good to hear you've got your Loon bumps in. What midweek days do you typically ski? Let me know how those bumps hold up with the rain. Will Loon dust them with a little man-made if everything freezes solid? ...or just mow them down?

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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Tony Crocker » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:57 am

It was so warm when I was at MRG that unconsolidated snow off the trails was rotten. The bumps were sufficiently skier-packed to hold up well in the weather.

Eastern groomers are in general not sufficiently steep (nor are they salted) to ski well when it's very warm with no overnight freeze IMHO. I found that at Killington late April 1990 and even to some extent at Stowe the day before MRG and tended to ski more bumps because that was where the best snow was.

My guess is that joegm's day at Loon was warm enough to soften the bumps to optimum condition, but that the groomers were good too because the sun wasn't high enough to make them sticky.
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby cj » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:46 pm

joegm wrote: becasue we are nuts and we stop and talk to everyone who we think may show any inclination at all to ski bumps..


That reminds me... the friend that I ski with is a liftie at one of the local resorts and he was working the top lift shack when he saw some dude come up the lift on K2 Power Mamba's a he had on some older Predator bump pants. This was right after New Years, so he might have just been passing through for the holidays. He tried to catch up with the guy, but I guess he just went to the back side of the mountain and skied our one bump run all day. He called me and told me about it and now we just refer to him as the "mysterious bumper". Kinda like seeing Bigfoot.

I think it may have been a guy that I skied with a few times years ago, but it is hard to tell since I wasn't there. Maybe we will run into him again. It would be nice to have a posse of bumpers to ski with all the time.

DD- on a lighter note, I let that same friend borrow your book and he was reading it at work and when he was finished he propped it up against the glass in his lift shack so people could see the titile. The funny thing was that, on that day they had a huge instructor training thing up there and the instructors were giving him funny looks :) .

cj

I need to get bumper stickers made up that say:

"Stop the Senseless Grooming"
"Friends Don't Let Friends Cross Trough"
"Tips to the target"
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby JimG. » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:53 pm

cj wrote:I need to get bumper stickers made up that say:

"Stop the Senseless Grooming"
"Friends Don't Let Friends Cross Trough"
"Tips to the target"


Don't forget "Eyes on the prize".
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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby cj » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:02 pm

JimG. wrote:[Don't forget "Eyes on the prize".


I like that one...you got it brother! Or as one of the top mogul coaches in the country says in his instructional video... "If you cant' see, you can't ski".

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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby HDHaller » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:20 am

Tony Crocker wrote: Eastern groomers are in general not sufficiently steep (nor are they salted) to ski well when it's very warm with no overnight freeze IMHO.


I'd have to disagree with you there, Tony. Most eastern areas have plenty enough steepness for even the mushiest of spring days.

As for salting... do you know of any salting that occurs outside of race course preparation? I've never heard of it.

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Re: re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Dan DiPiro » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:14 pm

cj wrote: DD- on a lighter note, I let that same friend borrow your book and he was reading it at work and when he was finished he propped it up against the glass in his lift shack so people could see the titile. The funny thing was that, on that day they had a huge instructor training thing up there and the instructors were giving him funny looks :) .


:-)

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re: why bump skiers rule

Postby Ryan » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:40 am

Well... this one is particularly for Dan.

As promised about 2 months agon in here I purchased and read the book. I have not commented on it since because I wanted to try to apply it to my own skiing and I only have one thing to say... ROCK ON.


I have found a balance and stability that I have been wanting for a long time. At this point i have been working this for about 12-15 ski days so I think that I am far enough along that I can comment safely but I still have more work to do.
As for the beginning drills sescribed in the book I have been applying them to not only bump lessons but to all rotory work as well. I teach based on the Balance, Edging, Rotory, and Pressure model and use this in a sequential manner with my 8 week groups to have a system to work from. I seems to keep the continuity of student development pretty balanced. On my rotory weeks I have added in your drills and have been having some pretty sweet success so far. This way when I take these same students into the bumps in a couple of weeks (they are level 4-6 skiers for the most part) I think that the transition will be a lot easier because the groomer drills will already be familiar. I know that a lot of people that are involved with PSIA would see this as a conflict but I don't. I have also been talking to my Boss as well as the rest of the higher-ups in my ski school and for some reason they seem to be much more receptive to this now. I think that IMHO there is the beginnings of a swing in PSIA mentality when it comes to the bumps. Lets all just hope so.
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