Is the ski resort model dead?

Tony Crocker":2xsnhibg said:
As I've stated before IMHO the aspect where ski expense needs most urgently to be addressed is for families with young children.
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I don't think even this is universally an issue. Here in the Bay Area the Anymountain stores have an incredible trade-in program for kids. For $100 you get the first year's equipment (skis/boots). The equipment is used and comes from their rental fleet, but it's completely fine for kids. Every year after that it's $40 to trade them in for a 'new' set. We have 2 girls 2 years apart - the older one simply hands down her old equipment to the younger one and we trade-in the younger's equipment for 'new' for the older sister. It costs us $40 per year to keep two kids in skis. Anymountain must make money doing this (it's extremely popular and brings a lot of people into their store), so there's no reason other shops couldn't do the same.

We take the kids to a medium-size off-Tahoe resort (Dodge Ridge) that's very kid-friendly - they ski for free (until 6 years old) and then for $16 until 13. We always bring packed lunches.

The only thing that is expensive is lessons - which are ~$100 per day. I generally teach them myself, but an occasional lesson does help to speed up their learning curve.

The point is, you can definitely ski for a reasonable cost, regardless of age. My guess is that every ski region in the country has similar arrangements to the above. It's just a question of finding deals and then making it happen.

On the flip-side, you can also be one of the lucky few who buys $2000 skis every season and gets to ski from your $5M Deer Valley doorstep (when you're not at your chateau in St. Moritz, of course). More power to ya - I definitely wouldn't mind being that guy. But in the meantime watch out for my 4-year old - she's liable to ski circles around your softly-padded Bogner a$$.
 
rfarren":13hkyorw said:
Frankly, ski-bumming is done by living off the fat of society and I don't see why we should condone it, let alone glorify it.
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What are you talking about?

Ski bumming is a type of lifestyle where every morning during ski season we wake up, check the conditions and if it's worthy, we go ski.

Many of my friends work hard all summer, save up some cash so they can ski in the winter. Many others, including myself, are self employed and work late afternoon/evening during ski season, around our passion.
 
soulskier":vd7w3js2 said:
rfarren":vd7w3js2 said:
Frankly, ski-bumming is done by living off the fat of society and I don't see why we should condone it, let alone glorify it.
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What are you talking about?

Ski bumming is a type of lifestyle where every morning during ski season we wake up, check the conditions and if it's worthy, we go ski.

Many of my friends work hard all summer, save up some cash so they can ski in the winter. Many others, including myself, are self employed and work late afternoon/evening during ski season, around our passion.
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Without getting too far into a discussion on the ethics of ski bumming, let's put it this way. Ski bums do nothing at all for society. They don't help anyone but themselves for the most part, and then complain that they can't get their menial seasonal gig, because ski areas are owned by corporations who have a bottom line. By and large there is a shirking of responsibility, and they leave the world in no better shape than they came to it.
 
rfarren":1wclcqat said:
Ski bums do nothing at all for society. They don't help anyone but themselves for the most part, and then complain that they can't get their menial seasonal gig, because ski areas are owned by corporations who have a bottom line. By and large there is a shirking of responsibility, and they leave the world in no better shape than they came to it.
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People that are willing to sacrifice everything for turns. Hard to find people as dedicated to the sport, some works in shops, food joints, are liftees... some of them will make their mark and give back to the sport. Some ski bum while go on to publicize the sport, better poster boys and gals, make movies or influence the ski industry as a whole. Without one particular ski bum shared his love to the sport, without him, rocket skis might not have existed. He is not the only one, many others have influenced the sport.
 
Patrick":2ekjc8yc said:
rfarren":2ekjc8yc said:
Ski bums do nothing at all for society. They don't help anyone but themselves for the most part, and then complain that they can't get their menial seasonal gig, because ski areas are owned by corporations who have a bottom line. By and large there is a shirking of responsibility, and they leave the world in no better shape than they came to it.
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People that are willing to sacrifice everything for turns. Hard to find people as dedicated to the sport, some works in shops, food joints, are liftees... some of them will make their mark and give back to the sport. Some ski bum while go on to publicize the sport, better poster boys and gals, make movies or influence the ski industry as a whole. Without one particular ski bum shared his love to the sport, without him, rocket skis might not have existed. He is not the only one, many others have influenced the sport.
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As I said in response to your earlier comments, there are exceptions to the rule. Furthermore, you are talking about people who had a phase in their lives when they were ski bums, who then had the drive to have a career, albeit ski related. Do you think that Jake Burton Carpenter would miss a board meeting to say: "it's a powder day, sorry..."? I doubt it. However, Soulskier seems to be talking about lifelong ski bums, at least that's what "In Search of Powder, A Story of America's Disappearing Ski Bums" (the book Soulskier keeps telling me to read) is about:

The story of the ski bum goes back roughly to the early 1940s, when after the war young men (and women) dedicated to skiing powder shucked all careers and headed for the west, willing to sleep in closet-sized rooms, work nights to sustain life and spend the rest of the time on the hill or in bars and occasionally inhaling illegal substances..... That was a time when you could be a ski bum and never worry about tomorrow.... The ski bum of the past has been replaced by temporary workers.
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Temporary workers (i.e. lifty, dishtanker, line cook) was what I thought ski bums were supposed to be.

Going back to the original argument, I don't see why it's necessary for ski areas to cater themselves to ski bums. It doesn't make any financial sense.
 
rfarren":3taaamu2 said:
Ski bums do nothing at all for society. They don't help anyone but themselves for the most part, and then complain that they can't get their menial seasonal gig, because ski areas are owned by corporations who have a bottom line. By and large there is a shirking of responsibility, and they leave the world in no better shape than they came to it.
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So, just where is it written that everyone must contribute to Society? or that each must contibute in a way acceptable to you? Suggesting that those with an alternate perspective/view on life are any less valuble is a tad judgemental don't cha think? You are entitled to your Orwellian opinion nonetheless...

Patrick":3taaamu2 said:
People that are willing to sacrifice everything for turns. Hard to find people as dedicated to the sport, some works in shops, food joints, are liftees... some of them will make their mark and give back to the sport. Some ski bum while go on to publicize the sport, better poster boys and gals, make movies or influence the ski industry as a whole. Without one particular ski bum shared his love to the sport, without him, rocket skis might not have existed. He is not the only one, many others have influenced the sport.
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Here is a link to a cool Salomon FreeSki TV vid about a couple of home boys in Queyras France and their unique perspective on life and what is ultimately important in their world. I think these lads have it dialed in...IMHO. To each his own
http://www.salomonfreeski.com/others/freeski-tv/season-04-episode-07.html
 
longshanks":1tz8j92r said:
So, just where is it written that everyone must contribute to Society? or that each must contibute in a way acceptable to you? Suggesting that those with an alternate perspective/view on life are any less valuble is a tad judgemental don't cha think? You are entitled to your Orwellian opinion nonetheless...
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I have no problem with what you're saying, each person is entitled to his or her own life choices. That being said I do have a problem when those very people making those choices complain and whine that their style of life is being infringed upon by changing economics. If their choices are no longer tenable they ought to adjust. Let's face it Ski-Bums aren't exactly the St. Francis' of the ski world. They just want turns for cheap, and to work as little as possible to enable them to get those turns. If those people have to commute an extra 20 minutes or work an extra 10 hours a week to get their fix it's not a big deal. I feel no empathy for that person as the rest of the world deals with stuff like that just to pay for their day to day living.

In the end, it's not a right to have cheap rent, plentiful jobs, and cheap lift tickets.
 
Patrick":12f5fyge said:
Some ski bum while go on to publicize the sport, better poster boys and gals, make movies or influence the ski industry as a whole. Without one particular ski bum shared his love to the sport, without him, rocket skis might not have existed.
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Oh, please. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. And by the time he came up with that idea, he was hardly a skibum - he was a professional, fully sponsored, celebrity skier; basically a marketing tool for ski equipment manufacturers and the huge ski resorts, ie: the ski *industry* that you, soulskier, et al decry so heavily.

When he signed those marketing contracts, does anyone naively think even for a moment that he was considering the "soulfulness" of the skibum lifestyle? BS! He was maximizing personal profit, just like the big ski resorts. He wasn't using rope tows and skins to get to the top of those big Alaskan faces - try a private contracted helicopter for him and his film crew that costs $3K / hr to operate.

I don't care if someone decides to be a skibum - for a season or a lifetime - and don't agree with rfarren's implied value judgment* about contributing to society. I've know plenty of people who did the rock climbing equivalent (myself included) for a while. What I think rankles me, Rob, Geoff, et al is the whining and complaining about the economics of ski areas and resort towns making it much more difficult to pursue the skibum lifestyle. Soulskier's posts and the book he keeps touting come off with a suggested sense of entitlement.

*Edit to add:
I see in his last post he clarified his earlier statement, and that clarification is what I suspected he originally meant, and as such, we are obviously in agreement.
 
rsmith":3g9cyhk5 said:
The only thing that is expensive is lessons - which are ~$100 per day. I generally teach them myself, but an occasional lesson does help to speed up their learning curve.
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And daycare. If you want to keep skiing when your kids are less than 3-5 years old I think that has become a lot more expensive for those who don't have extended family to help out. The 3-5 age range is a transition where kids can ski part of a day but generally not all of it and are going to be in those ~$100/day programs much of the time in destination resorts. And some of the skiers who drop out for several years when they have kids may not come back.

I agree that the equipment swaps and some of the lift ticket pricing for kids has stayed in line or maybe even improved a bit relative to people's incomes. There may be more cost pressure upon the Dodge Ridge examples in the East because of the need for snowmaking.
 
I am posting a photo from yesterday afternoon. This is a "ski bum" in action. Skiing first, working second. When I got home, I worked until midnight (including wasting time on here.)

sunset-love.jpg
 
soulskier":144qf460 said:
I am posting a photo from yesterday afternoon. This is a "ski bum" in action. Skiing first, working second.
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And your point is?
Live and ski however, whatever, whenever. All those of us who you think disagree with you are saying is to not float the idea that being a ski bum in an entitlement or a right.
 
Marc_C":3nii7b56 said:
And your point is?
Live and ski however, whatever, whenever. All those of us who you think disagree with you are saying is to not float the idea that being a ski bum in an entitlement or a right.
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I am not saying it is an entitlement or a right.

What I am saying is the current ski resort model of highly leveraged real estate and off slope amenities isn't what many people that chose skiing as a lifestyle, ie ski bums, are interested in.

It's really quite simple. We want a ski area that focuses on the downhill slide, not the other stuff.
 
soulskier":1zn13osz said:
Marc_C":1zn13osz said:
And your point is?
Live and ski however, whatever, whenever. All those of us who you think disagree with you are saying is to not float the idea that being a ski bum in an entitlement or a right.
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I am not saying it is an entitlement or a right.

What I am saying is the current ski resort model of highly leveraged real estate and off slope amenities isn't what many people that chose skiing as a lifestyle, ie ski bums, are interested in.

It's really quite simple. We want a ski area that focuses on the downhill slide, not the other stuff.
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That's fine, but you have to make it economically feasible.
 
soulskier":3i7fwkot said:
We want a ski area that focuses on the downhill slide, not the other stuff.
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Like spending coop membership fees on alternative energy projects with questionable economics? :stir:
 
Tony Crocker":3h3qsbje said:
soulskier":3h3qsbje said:
We want a ski area that focuses on the downhill slide, not the other stuff.
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Like spending coop membership fees on alternative energy projects with questionable economics? :stir:
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A ski area's number one cost is electricity. By including clean energy into the start up budget, and creating more energy than consumed, that expense is no longer an issue. What's questionable about that?
 
soulskier":2gyujq6k said:
A ski area's number one cost is electricity. By including clean energy into the start up budget, and creating more energy than consumed, that expense is no longer an issue. What's questionable about that?
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The capital cost. Green energy is expensive to buy, costly to maintain, and isn't as efficient as you seem to believe it is. The ability to pay it off quickly, or pay it off at all is questionable.
 
soulskier":2amf5hiq said:
A ski area's number one cost is electricity. By including clean energy into the start up budget, and creating more energy than consumed, that expense is no longer an issue. What's questionable about that?
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1. There is no way you can know that you will produce more energy than you consume.
2. There are no certainties that the power company will want to buy all the energy you produce.
3. Do you really think you'll be able to get investors to pay out X% more in increased start up costs for a technology that has a 10 or more year payback period to break even? Seriously?
4. What one electricity producing technology would you pick for this experiment, knowing that neither solar or wind operates 24/7?
 
soulskier":2xkgwb3k said:
Tony Crocker":2xkgwb3k said:
soulskier":2xkgwb3k said:
We want a ski area that focuses on the downhill slide, not the other stuff.
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Like spending coop membership fees on alternative energy projects with questionable economics? :stir:
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A ski area's number one cost is electricity. By including clean energy into the start up budget, and creating more energy than consumed, that expense is no longer an issue. What's questionable about that?
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False. A ski area's #1 cost is labor.
 
rfarren":8fq37bok said:
longshanks":8fq37bok said:
So, just where is it written that everyone must contribute to Society? or that each must contibute in a way acceptable to you? Suggesting that those with an alternate perspective/view on life are any less valuble is a tad judgemental don't cha think? You are entitled to your Orwellian opinion nonetheless...
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I have no problem with what you're saying, each person is entitled to his or her own life choices.
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I do. When that "ski bum" gets to age 50 with blown out knees, no job skills, and zero savings, I end up having to support him. The problem with a cushy safety net is that there are few consequences for your actions. You can live for today and not worry about starving to death tomorrow.
 
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