Serious Vert

Here is an example of 4th gear potential and serious vertical.

kiwi.jpg
 
And consider this an open invitation to the board. If anyone is in Tahoe this winter, let's meet up for a few runs on KT-22, where even the second and third tier skiers are in 4th gear. You can see first hand the speed these days.
 
Marc_C":21ul4lrg said:
As far as snide remarks, we've all hurled and received our share of daggers and hand grenades, but no one should ever be surprised at being called on it. :p

You really haven't become a full on member of this forum until you've gotten a picture diss given by Marc_C
 
soulskier":3kc7yieg said:
And consider this an open invitation to the board. If anyone is in Tahoe this winter, let's meet up for a few runs on KT-22, where even the second and third tier skiers are in 4th gear.
I nominate BobbyD. :lol:
 
This thread has gotten funny. It started because in another thread I had said that Steamboat lacked "serious vert." When what I should've said was that the interesting terrain to me lacked serious vert. I found that area limiting in that respect, even though it was pointed out to me by those who have skied it more than I that Steamboat can have 3000 ft. of continuos vert. I just found it less steep and more limiting terrain wise compared to the places I have hit out west.

However, this:
soulskier":2irtw45t said:
just seems ridiculous as the baseline of what is serious vert. Granted that everyone has their own thing that makes them tick, this just seems like overkill. It looks to be at least 45 degrees if not steeper and quite dangerous, perhaps even DNFZ.

Personally, I'm happy with terrain that challenges me and is long enough so I feel satisfied by the run. I couldn't give it a numerical length like 2000 ft, or a grade like 30 degrees. It changes based on the snow conditions, and how technical a line is. It could be in the trees or an open bowl. It could be a mandatory cliff huck, or a tight chute. All these elements change my perception on how much I did in a given run, and affect how I feel about the vert being serious or not.

The reason Steamboat seemed to lack vert was because I found the trees too widely spaced for the grade, so it wasn't particularly challenging (powder conditions), and the better stuff, i.e. the chutes, literally had 200 ft of vert before they flattened out considerably. Frankly, it was the out of the chutes and that lame back bowl that left the perception that Steamboat was really flatboat. On a side note, I loved the the hot springs out there.
 
soulskier":1k3x0id3 said:
Homie mentioned a 25 degree slope in a serious vert thread, that warrants a crack. 25 degrees isn't even steep enough to slide, which is where a slope then becomes "serious".

It was a stake in the ground as minimum criteria. Of course, I'm fairly convinced that such a point is completely lost on you. You want the whole world to know how freakin' great you are.
 
Geoff":16lpg7pi said:
soulskier":16lpg7pi said:
Homie mentioned a 25 degree slope in a serious vert thread, that warrants a crack. 25 degrees isn't even steep enough to slide, which is where a slope then becomes "serious".

It was a stake in the ground as minimum criteria. Of course, I'm fairly convinced that such a point is completely lost on you. You want the whole world to know how freakin' great you are.

Dude, I'm so rad, check me out!
 
I would still be interested in soulskier's response to flyover's and my comments on the previous page. Soulskier's pics from Las Lenas are nearly always from the powder days when he can put it in 4th gear or more. But we all know that Las Lenas can go weeks with no new snow and that the wind can pack it pretty hard. That vertical becomes a lot more serious in terms of consequences in those circumstances and the technical demands upon one's skiing ability much higher. I would be much more inclined to trust, say, Patrick's well-honed hardpack skills in those situations than the "4th gear" I see at Mammoth and LCC from Adam and BobbyD.
 
Tony Crocker":ag3ox4su said:
I would still be interested in soulskier's response to flyover's and my comments on the previous page.

Not me. I get it now. Clearly, the Sans Nom terrain depicted on the previous pages qualifies as "serious vert" or "serious terrain" ONLY on powder days when, compared to more prevalent firmer conditions, the vertical is a lot less serious in terms of the likely consequences of a mistake and/or the technical demands of the skiing. Makes perfect sense to me.

Hey Tony, when you were skiing those long, steep couloirs in La Grave, I'm sure you saw a lot of "pretty fast, but not quite full speed" skiing, right?

soulskier":ag3ox4su said:
KT-22, where . . . You can see first hand the speed these days.

Well, I am a little out of touch. I means it has been, hmmmm, about six days since I was last on skis. Although I will freely admit that was only at Buckhill, the local molehill where I have been teaching my 4-year-old daughter to ski, and where, I can assure you, nobody has ever skied fast.
 
Tony Crocker":1rtu3bfa said:
I would still be interested in soulskier's response to flyover's and my comments on the previous page. Soulskier's pics from Las Lenas are nearly always from the powder days when he can put it in 4th gear or more. But we all know that Las Lenas can go weeks with no new snow and that the wind can pack it pretty hard. That vertical becomes a lot more serious in terms of consequences in those circumstances and the technical demands upon one's skiing ability much higher. I would be much more inclined to trust, say, Patrick's well-honed hardpack skills in those situations than the "4th gear" I see at Mammoth and LCC from Adam and BobbyD.

Tony, the windboard/buff at Las Lenas is normally the ideal condition to really let it rip. In fact, along with corn, is our favorite snow type due to it's consistency and predictability. Powder skiing at Lenas is often a sketchy endeavor.

Here's a look across the valley. The top of the plateau to the valley floor is right around 4,000' for reference. Now that's what I call some serious vert
ll-aerial.jpg
 
While Mammoth only has this terrain/snow surface in 1,000 vertical increments, I'm quite familiar via Mammoth experience with the varied wind effect snow. Sometimes it's more edgeable than other times. Sometimes it's smooth so you can be confident with more speed. Sometimes it's irregular with sastrugi (like last week) so you have to be more deliberate.

In the case of 3,600 vertical La Vaute at La Grave it had not snowed for a month. The upper 1/4 of the couloir was 35+ degrees with what most of us would call "tight" chalk. It had not been through a melt freeze, but was pretty firm and a fall would have high consequences. The lower 3/4 was not quite as steep but still 30+ and had been through a melt/freeze and was thus closer to frozen granular. One of the Extremely Canadian clients was sufficiently spooked by the exposure and conditions that she skied most of La Vaute roped to a guide. I find it hard to believe the above conditions are unheard of at Las Lenas given its similar snowfall, higher winds and lower latitude vs. the French Alps.

I believe that soulskier has a rather similar attitude to snow conditions as I do, though no doubt taking advantage of them on a more aggressive basis. He's out there for the powder, the smooth windbuff and the corn but not for the dicier conditions where it's not prudent to ski in "4th gear."
 
soulskier":2grc7yfx said:
Geoff":2grc7yfx said:
soulskier":2grc7yfx said:
Homie mentioned a 25 degree slope in a serious vert thread, that warrants a crack. 25 degrees isn't even steep enough to slide, which is where a slope then becomes "serious".

It was a stake in the ground as minimum criteria. Of course, I'm fairly convinced that such a point is completely lost on you. You want the whole world to know how freakin' great you are.

Dude, I'm so rad, check me out!
When you dismiss places like MRG as being a relevant model for the MRA b/c of some ill-informed perception with respect to the terrain and challenge, then the above statement is exactly what you are saying, albeit unwittingly.
 
Mike Bernstein":atk7kij9 said:
When you dismiss places like MRG as being a relevant model for the MRA b/c of some ill-informed perception with respect to the terrain and challenge, then the above statement is exactly what you are saying, albeit unwittingly.

Ill-informed perception of the terrain and challenge? Here's the trail map.

mrg-map.jpg


I have stated numerous times that we want to provide lift access to big mountain skiing (similar to Silverton), which this is not. No offense or disrespect, but it's not the type of terrain or snow pack that we are looking for.

Please note I do have a ton of respect for MRG and the business model they practice.
 
soulskier":11p9taau said:
This is more conducive to the type of terrain we are looking to work with.
Avalanche control, not cheap in terms of labor and other costs. It was interesting discussing this issue last July at the New Zealand club areas. With limited resources often the response is to wait it out and let the snow settle. I believe this is common at Silverton also. Depending upon weather, often the snow isn't powder anymore by the time you're allowed to ski it. Soulskier should be quite familiar with this situation from Las Lenas.
 
soulskier":e2x05tnv said:
Ill-informed perception of the terrain and challenge? Here's the trail map.

mrg-map.jpg


I have stated numerous times that we want to provide lift access to big mountain skiing (similar to Silverton), which this is not. No offense or disrespect, but it's not the type of terrain or snow pack that we are looking for.
Since when should we judge a mountain by its trail map? If we did that Steamboat's back bowl would provide a "big mountain" experience, which it doesn't.

MRG offers as close a big mountain experience as you can get on the EC. All the terrain on that map is skiable. That map doesn't represent the difficulty and experience well. The snowpack is the only part of that statement in which I do not disagree with you.
 
I'm not sure whether it's on MRG's trail map, but I believe the single is 2,100 vertical at no more than 3 to 1 length to vertical ratio. That usually defines an advanced terrain pod, and the moguls, natural snow conditions and relative tight tree spacing are far more demanding upon one's ski skills than similar pitch on groomed or high alpine terrain.
 
soulskier":22g8ajku said:
Ill-informed perception of the terrain and challenge? Here's the trail map.
I love it. Your only response is to post the trail map? Really? That's the extent of your knowledge of the place? That's pretty well indicative of the depth of thinking that's characterized the MRA and its predecessors thus far. I can state with a high degree of confidence that a significant % of MRG skiers would absolutely dust you on that hill, irrespective of how badass you think you get when you kick it into 4th gear. Tight, steep EC trees with chutes, waterfalls and occasional bobsled tracks for the full 2000'. The more you dismiss it, the more clueless you appear.

I have stated numerous times that we want to provide lift access to big mountain skiing (similar to Silverton), which this is not. No offense or disrespect, but it's not the type of terrain or snow pack that we are looking for.

Please note I do have a ton of respect for MRG and the business model they practice.
Apparently you don't, if your previous statements in the Shames thread are any indication. You came out and flatly stated that MRG wouldn't be a good model for Shames b/c of the terrain/snowpack. This is despite the fact that, within an EC context, they practice EXACTLY the type of business model you claim to aspire to: big terrain, deep snows, environmentally sensitive, collective vibe, focused on long-term sustainability and not short-term profits.

Moreover, if this were what you are so focused on, then why waste your time and energy thinking about urban jibber "ski energy centers". BTW, I just love that term you've coined. It takes useless eco-business jargon to an entirely new level.
 
I just hope the nuts and bolts of soulskier's first MRA business plan do not jibe with the rhetoric that has alienated much of his audience here.

I have thrown my fair share of :brick: at eastern ski areas over the years. But in addition to the detailed weather data I have collected, I try to learn from the reports posted here. I also believe there is no substitute for personal experience and made an effort to visit the "best of the East" when I had an opportunity. While my sample size is limited I suspect it does give me a frame of reference to make more educated comments than soulskier's.
 
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