Manitoba Mountain, Spirit of the Kenai

[Tony Crocker]

The out of bounds experience would be something comparable to Chamonix or La Grave

As one of your "unqualified" critics, those happen to be the only 2 European ski destinations I have visited. I have also heliskied with Chugach Powder Guides in your neighborhood. Will you be providing guide service as they do in the Alps or CPG? It seems nearly mandatory as I don't get the impression that avalanche control work will be done on anything close to 10,000 acres. Nor do I suspect it's a good idea to advertise

45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones

and then let visitors ski them unguided. Anyone who skis that stuff without a guide at La Grave is a fool, and if we take your claims at face value the same would apply at Manitoba's OB. Silverton, which is another analogy, does not allow unguided skiing at all outside of limited terrain during shoulder season based upon snow stability.

[rfarren]

I know I asked this earlier, but I am interested if anybody on this forum might know to some degree:

If a mountain's main means of advertisement is it's backcountry terrain, and something goes wrong back there, even if you sign a liability waiver to access it, is the mountain subject to lawsuits etc...?

[Patrick]

The out of bounds experience would be something comparable to Chamonix or La Grave

As one of your "unqualified" critics, those happen to be the only 2 European ski destinations I have visited. I have also heliskied with Chugach Powder Guides in your neighborhood. Will you be providing guide service as they do in the Alps or CPG? It seems nearly mandatory as I don't get the impression that avalanche control work will be done on anything close to 10,000 acres. Nor do I suspect it's a good idea to advertise

45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones

and then let visitors ski them unguided. Anyone who skis that stuff without a guide at La Grave is a fool, and if we take your claims at face value the same would apply at Manitoba's OB. Silverton, which is another analogy, does not allow unguided skiing at all outside of limited terrain during shoulder season based upon snow stability.

You look at the layout and it screams at you (maybe it's the skiing geographer in me). Not everyone is going to be able (or willing) to drop off the top lift, same applies to the terrain accessed by Marte at Lenas. I don't know much of the details, just the terrain. I can think of a few areas that the bolded comment could apply in the Alps or the Andes where guided isn't given nor mandatory. Even if the Shames' backcountry.

Not that I advise people to ski La Grave without a guide, but I personally know at least two people that have. Are they fools? I don't think so, but you have to be real sure of your skiing abilities and know the terrain.

Back to your regular scheduled programming...

[Tony Crocker]

he bolded comment could apply in the Alps or the Andes where guided isn't given nor mandatory.

The U.S. has far different liability laws, as alluded to by rfarren. That accounts for Silverton's very conservative approach to where they let people ski. One high profile disaster and the the Brills fear their minimalist operation will be out of business. This is one subject about which I hope soulskier has consulted with the Brills.

I personally know at least two people that have.

You can do that if you stay close to the lifts. If they were doing that in places like La Vaute and Le Rama I strongly suspect that they were carrying appropriate gear and were with someone who had been there before and knew where to navigate.

[soulskier]

Here's a relevant article.

Introducing ESPN's Sidecountry Awards, the 10 best out-of-bounds stashes accessible from resorts all over North America.

http://espn.go.com/action/freeskiing/ne ... id=6632558

[soulskier]

Manitoba Mountain: A new ski area wants to change the world

http://kimkircher.com/2011/06/11/manito ... the-world/

[rfarren]

Manitoba Mountain: A new ski area wants to change the world

http://kimkircher.com/2011/06/11/manito ... the-world/

Granted that's a puff piece, but it did quote 10000 acres for the size of the ski area, which is a blatant exaggeration. If all mountains were to count their backcountry every mountain in the country even those on the EC could legally quote near 10000 acres.

[Admin]

Lift served acreage is 1100, according to an MRA spokesperson. To put that in perspective that makes it half the size of Alta if you include all of Alta's hike-to in bounds terrain.

[Tony Crocker]

it did quote 10000 acres for the size of the ski area, which is a blatant exaggeration.

I've been ripping soulskier on this issue, but the article does have this bullet point at the bottom.

Inbounds terrain: Approximately 1,000 acres

Also,

Beyond that, thousands of backcountry acres will be available via an access gate. Riders will be required to carry avalanche equipment and take responsibility for themselves.

So yes she's giving Manitoba an overall favorable spin, but I give Kim credit for actually providing the relevant facts that I inquired about earlier in this thread and never received a response from soulskier.

FYI this is IMHO the way most of us try to write articles in ski journalism. You want to be upbeat, appeal to the readers who would like to visit a particular destination. I personally try to include important negatives so people will be accurately informed but in a diplomatic way, usually with suggestions how to mitigate those negatives.

This also caught my eye.

The terrain accessed from the rope tows will cater to beginners and intermediates.

I was under the impression from soulskier that the lifts are pomas/T-bars. I'm not sure whether soulskier is planning to inaugurate NZ-style nutcracker tows to North America, but if so that's not going to make his marketing any easier, especially to beginners and intermediates.

[soulskier]

This also caught my eye.

The terrain accessed from the rope tows will cater to beginners and intermediates.

I was under the impression from soulskier that the lifts are pomas/T-bars. I'm not sure whether soulskier is planning to inaugurate NZ-style nutcracker tows to North America, but if so that's not going to make his marketing any easier, especially to beginners and intermediates.

Tony, the Nutcracker lift is currently not allowed in the US, per the ANSI B77.1 Guidelines. For the time being, we are referring to the uphill transportation as surface lifts. It's likely the lower lift will be a T Bar to best accommodate beginner skiers.

Regarding the backcountry access gate, avalanche control work and guide service, we have been discussing this in detail, including talks with a colleague at Silverton. We haven't nailed down the exact details yet. I'll be sure to keep you posted.

[jamesdeluxe]

providing the relevant facts that I inquired about earlier in this thread and never received a response from soulskier.

The ongoing give and take between FTOers and Soul Skier concerning his promotion of Manitoba is interesting. Each side has good points about how much information should be provided about a ski area (especially one that has yet to open) and at which point you should do it.

Apologies for the spam link, but a few weeks ago, I posted an Interview with Jay Peak's Steve Wright that touched on some of these issues, i.e. different ways to run and market a mountain, including the question of how much "truth" the public should hear. Of course, one of the many differences between Jay and Manitoba is that Jay has been in operation for decades with a well established brand and niche, whereas Manitoba is planning to offer something that only has one precursor (Silverton), and in a substantially different location.

[Marc_C]

...one of the many differences between Jay and Manitoba is that Jay has been in operation for decades with a well established brand and niche, whereas Manitoba is planning to offer something that only has one precursor (Silverton), and in a substantially different location.

And from what soulskier indicated in prior threads, a substantially different business model - one that requires significant financial transparency.

[Tony Crocker]

It's likely the lower lift will be a T Bar to best accommodate beginner skiers.

And the other 2 lifts? Just my opinion, but I think a Poma is easier for a beginner than a T-bar. Even for experienced skiers T-bars are not easy to ride alone. And both are tough on snowboarders.

[soulskier]

It's likely the lower lift will be a T Bar to best accommodate beginner skiers.

And the other 2 lifts? Just my opinion, but I think a Poma is easier for a beginner than a T-bar. Even for experienced skiers T-bars are not easy to ride alone. And both are tough on snowboarders.

Good point Tony, Pomas are being considered as well. Both a T Bar and a Poma have an advantage in areas that receive a lot of snow, as they adjust to the height, whereas a tow needs to remain above the snowline.

[soulskier]

providing the relevant facts that I inquired about earlier in this thread and never received a response from soulskier.

The ongoing give and take between FTOers and Soul Skier concerning his promotion of Manitoba is interesting. Each side has good points about how much information should be provided about a ski area (especially one that has yet to open) and at which point you should do it.

Apologies for the spam link, but a few weeks ago, I posted an Interview with Jay Peak's Steve Wright that touched on some of these issues, i.e. different ways to run and market a mountain, including the question of how much "truth" the public should hear. Of course, one of the many differences between Jay and Manitoba is that Jay has been in operation for decades with a well established brand and niche, whereas Manitoba is planning to offer something that only has one precursor (Silverton), and in a substantially different location.

Thanks for sharing the interview. You are spot on, I try to keep the board updated on things, but sometimes it's premature to divulge information, especially at this stage. And as I have stated before, I do appreciate the hard questions and great feedback, it has been very helpful.