Where to spend next winter on a budget?

[Tony Crocker]

Maybe I can help cover the early/late season at home.

Really? Early/late season in the Northeast is a crapshoot, and this year should surely have driven that point home. The quality ski season in the Cottonwood Canyons is on average mid-December to late April and can be even more than that. There are fixed costs like the season passes, and it seems to me if you can take 3 months you might as well make it the whole season.

[kmartshopper]

Really? Early/late season in the Northeast is a crapshoot, and this year should surely have driven that point home. The quality ski season in the Cottonwood Canyons is on average mid-December to late April and can be even more than that. There are fixed costs like the season passes, and it seems to me if you can take 3 months you might as well make it the whole season.

Yeah, driving's another big cost, but I still have a way to go before I'm completely free. So I think it's just that window for now.

[Marc_C]

It's interesting you mention the resorts with shared relationships like that. Do you know of any in UT that have reciprocal benefits with any VT or NE resorts? Maybe I can help cover the early/late season at home.

None that I'm aware of.

[kmartshopper]

Have any of you spent enough time at those Colorado places (Vail, Breck) as well as VT (Stowe, Killington) to comment on how the definition of "crowded" may vary between the two areas? I mean Breckinridge could never feel as crowded as Killington, could it? For comparison, I'd say snowbird sometimes has longish lines and can feel a bit crowded - but it would compare to a pretty good day in VT - closer to how VT feels midweek. I don't think I ever saw Brighton crowded.

[EMSC]

Have any of you spent enough time at those Colorado places (Vail, Breck) as well as VT (Stowe, Killington) to comment on how the definition of "crowded" may vary between the two areas? I mean Breckinridge could never feel as crowded as Killington, could it? For comparison, I'd say snowbird sometimes has longish lines and can feel a bit crowded - but it would compare to a pretty good day in VT - closer to how VT feels midweek. I don't think I ever saw Brighton crowded.

Certain sections of the mountain and definitely lift lines (depending on where you ski, what lift, and especially on the weekends) can most definitely be just as crowded as Kmart. More so at Breck than Vail, but also Vail at times too... Terrain is far more vast however so you can nearly always find somewhat roomy turns compared to the east if you are high enough caliber of skier and know where to go at what times of day.

Again, weekends and holidays are the real issue. Mid-week is far less crowded except March when spring breaks are going on. You have 4+ Million people in very easy day trip distance of the central Colorado resorts on the front range from Cheyenne, WY down to Pueblo. Further away things are less crowded in Colorado.

[Tony Crocker]

The bottom line is that Copper, Winter Park, Keystone are close to a million skier visits and Vail and Breck are well beyond that. While I agree that the vastness of Vail leads to some more quiet sectors, if I were taking a season off to live in a ski resort region I wouldn't choose the busiest one in western North America.

[NeedhamSkier]

OTOH, you could easily argue the opposite. If you have the luxury of a full season to ski, you have the option of choosing which days you ski. So you can take advantage of quiet periods, while taking it easy and/or using inside knowledge to avoid crowds at busy times. So in some ways I would say a popular resort is a better option for a full season than for a short trip, where you maybe don't know the resort layout, waiting in line will have a much bigger impact on your limited skiing time, and you generally want to ski every day. Remember also there’s a reason why these are the most popular resorts – good terrain, plenty of lift options and pretty good snow records (Vail more than Breck, maybe).

It also depends what you’re looking for off the hill – some of the “less crowded” resorts are going to be really quiet (i.e. dead) midweek for much of the season. Some people look for that kind of quiet, others don’t. I think you also have a much better chance of friends choosing to come visit if you can offer them a place to crash and local knowledge at a world-class resort.

I took a season in the Trois Vallees in France, one of the most popular (and biggest) areas. We skied pretty much every day midweek, took it easy on weekends, left town completely (and sub-let our apartment) for two of the peak February weeks, and had friends come visit on a pretty regular basis. Worked really well for us.

[Admin]

One little statistic should drive the point home: Colorado has three times the skier visits per acre that Utah does.

[Evren]

Colorado has three times the skier visits per acre that Utah does.

Interesting. My impression is that operating a ski hill is a very low-return investment (you have a good year, then have to replace a lift which costs all that and more). How is it, then, that Utah resorts can stay in business despite such drastically lower numbers?

[Admin]

Colorado has three times the skier visits per acre that Utah does.

Interesting. My impression is that operating a ski hill is a very low-return investment (you have a good year, then have to replace a lift which costs all that and more). How is it, then, that Utah resorts can stay in business despite such drastically lower numbers?

Profitability is a result of a complex series of factors. The most important number on the revenue side of the balance sheet is "skier yield," which is the average revenue per skier when all guest expenditures are calculated in: not only lift tickets, but also resort-owned food & beverage, retail and lodging, ski school, etc. Keep in mind, too, that with the über-cheap season passes sold to Colorado Front Range residents the skier traffic is driven skyward without a significant impact upon skier yield. By the nature of its business and local population, Utah season passes are substantially more expensive. Utah's ~4 million annual skier visit demographic is split roughly 50/50 between locals and visitors.

[Evren]

Some friends (a couple and two young kids) came to Deer Valley from Chicago last month and what they spent on one day was more than my entire season pass:
3-hour lesson for two:$500
ski-school for older kid: $180
daycare for toddler: $120
two tickets: $160

vs DV midweek pass: $895

...something that will help me keep perspective when pass prices go up again this summer.

[Tony Crocker]

One little statistic should drive the point home: Colorado has three times the skier visits per acre that Utah does.

That is basically my point, which is fairly obvious if you ski enough days at these areas. I will say that the skier density issue applies only to the Denver daytrip accessible areas. It's not a problem at all at Aspen/Snowmass, Crested Butte or Telluride. Maybe Steamboat too, I have only been there once.

[rfarren]

One little statistic should drive the point home: Colorado has three times the skier visits per acre that Utah does.

That is basically my point, which is fairly obvious if you ski enough days at these areas. I will say that the skier density issue applies only to the Denver daytrip accessible areas. It's not a problem at all at Aspen/Snowmass, Crested Butte or Telluride. Maybe Steamboat too, I have only been there once.

Aspen/Snowmass is most definitely not too bad for skier density, but it doesn't get the snow that Vail does. Also, it's not cheap. I will say the terrain there is better than Summit County with the exception of Flatmass. As you all know, I'm not a big fan of Steamboat at all, but it is a great town, and might be a bit cheaper than Alta. The other two places I've not been to, but they are hard to get to, so I would imagine they are good as far as skier density. I've heard both Telluride and Crested Butte are pricey. Their trailmaps look impressive, but those can be deceiving, albeit Crested Butte has a reputation for steeps.

[johnnash]

Colorado has three times the skier visits per acre that Utah does.

Interesting. My impression is that operating a ski hill is a very low-return investment (you have a good year, then have to replace a lift which costs all that and more). How is it, then, that Utah resorts can stay in business despite such drastically lower numbers?

Profitability is a result of a complex series of factors. The most important number on the revenue side of the balance sheet is "skier yield," which is the average revenue per skier when all guest expenditures are calculated in: not only lift tickets, but also resort-owned food & beverage, retail and lodging, ski school, etc. Keep in mind, too, that with the über-cheap season passes sold to Colorado Front Range residents the skier traffic is driven skyward without a significant impact upon skier yield. By the nature of its business and local population, Utah season passes are substantially more expensive. Utah's ~4 million annual skier visit demographic is split roughly 50/50 between locals and visitors.

When we were slaves of the school schedule, we used to ski SLC the week between Christmas and New Year's, and Colorado (mostly Copper and Keystone in those days) over Prez Day or MLC holiday. So, we were in both areas at pretty much peak times. From my experience in the CCs (especially Brighton and Solitude), I can certainly believe the statistic about Colorado having 3X the skiers/ac as Utah on average, but that must vary a lot among the different areas in Utah. It defintely did not look that way in the PC group. In all 3 of those resorts -- even DV, which limits the number of tix it sells -- we found lines longer than those in Copper or Keystone.

On the economics of the resorts, I wonder how much the expense of snow-making impacts on the bottom line. Wouldn't the Utah resorts have to spend much less than Colorado on this? I know Tony says Utah is more reliable early in the season.

And finally, one note on the ''über-cheap season passes sold to Colorado Front Range residents'' -- you're right about that, and FTOLers outside of CO may want to note that the Vail group's ''local pass'' is not restricted to locals (as I think was the case until last year), notwithstanding the name. Even with a (very) few holiday blackouts and some limitations on number of days at Vail/ BC, it is still uber cheap at $500, as long as you're not tied to skiing on holidays. Due to the very abnormal season this year, it turned out to be not such a a great deal for us, but it wasn't a total loss, either, and I suspect we'll do it again.

[EMSC]

we found lines longer than those in Copper or Keystone.

Keystone surprises me. Granted I have not bothered to ski there for ~7 years now, but that place used to be heinous especially front side and north peak. Copper is not a surprise, due to the extra resorts you get with a Vail Inc pass the Intrawest/Powd'r one doesn't do as well with their pass sales and many of those folks seem to ski mostly Winter Park. Leaving Copper with some lines and crowds, but usually significantly less than the Vail Inc places in recent years.

On the economics of the resorts, I wonder how much the expense of snow-making impacts on the bottom line. Wouldn't the Utah resorts have to spend much less than Colorado on this? I know Tony says Utah is more reliable early in the season.

Probably true for AltaBird, but the PC areas are probably similar snowmaking requirements to Colo. It is a significant chunk of change for sure between capital investment and operational costs.

Due to the very abnormal season this year, it turned out to be not such a a great deal for us, but it wasn't a total loss, either, and I suspect we'll do it again.

Based on my 14 years in Colorado I'd guess that (assuming such a pass for non-locals were available that whole time frame) you would do just fine buying one in ~12 of those 14 years (using it for two one week trips). Perhaps 2-3 other 'mediocre' seasons in there as well (ask Tony , but really this year and 2002 are clear and above 'winners' for crappy snow seasons compared to any of the others. So not exactly bad odds over a decent time frame. And really if you had happened to get lucky and time things just right, much of Feb was pretty decent skiing even this year. (Though the OOtah'ers will chime in with 13 of 14 being great or something).