Question about Spring Aspects and Corn

[jamesdeluxe]

I asked a liftie while poking the stuff with my pole. He said, "Yup, it's corn".

I'm trying to imagine the look on someone's face if asked a question like that. Similar to "is that a hamburger?"

[Tony Crocker]

MarcC's analysis above is exactly correct (6+ inch powder day, etc.). If April is dry there will definitely be more corn than usual in LCC, though the low snowpack will be less likely to soften uniformly and some normally prime areas will get isothermic (the rotten, skiing in sand impression) snowpacks and/or start losing cover.

It sloughed off like a water-skier's wake, giving the soft-gradual support that one gets from powder......
It is possible that I am skiing something other than true corn. Let's call it "Deer Valley stone-ground maize".

That's somewhat different from my impression. The best corn is more like skiing a perfect groomed run, but with even less resistance. If you feel like you have to push the snow out of the way much, that's not good corn IMHO. However, on steep runs like at the top of Mammoth gravity overcomes most of that resistance and the skiing is still quite enjoyable. At the same late soft snow stage on flatter terrain it will feel like it's grabbing your skis and potentially throwing your upper body too far forward.

[johnnash]

This discussion makes me feel good to know that not everyone on this forum other than myself is among the corn cognoscenti. For awhile, whenever I went spring skiing, I was looking for something with large granules, like kernels. (God knows why that would make a pleasant surface!) A while ago, I finally inferred from the various discussions that it wasn't like that, but this then raises the question ''why 'corn'''? Is it related to the agricultural cycle out west -- because corn is planted on warm, sunny days in the spring? In any case, as I read the descriptions of Marc_C and Evren, I am convinced that I finally found the corny grail on my last day at Wolf Creek. It was, as Tony says, on a lightly trafficked ungroomed slope after lunch, when things had warmed up, and then by 4:00, it had started to stiffen up. But for a 3-hour window, it was a lot of fun -- definitely worth seeking out.

[Admin]

Actually corn snow is indeed large kernels like corn that form from repeated freeze thaw cycles.

This discussion of groomed vs ungroomed is where I think the confusion is coming from. Yes, the surface of a groomer can become true corn if it's somehow left undisturbed for a few days, but what are the odds of that happening? In more likelihood it will transform itself into something resembling corn as it softens through the day.

True corn, however, requires an undisturbed surface. When formed right the top half to two inches will shave off with each turn and the snow below that will be totally supportable.

The holy grail is untracked corn, much as untracked is for powder. That's typically not possible at lift served areas due to traffic levels, which is why we so often ski Alta from Snowbird after Alta closes for the season in spring. Arcing huge turns down a steep slope through an inch of corn that's as smooth as a pool table is positively divine.

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[Marc_C]

Actually corn snow is indeed large kernels like corn that form from repeated freeze thaw cycles.

http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/cornsnow.htm

[Evren]

Admin: That was instructive about true corn, which, apparently, I have not experienced. Yey, something even better to look forward to!
That liftie earlier was saying something about the snow being down to the man-made stuff put down earlier in the season and how it has a chemical to make it freeze at higher temps (don't tell Save Our Canyons) and I wonder if that has something to do with this. I mean, he was no genius, this liftie, but maybe there's something in the water, after all?

Similar to "is that a hamburger?"

Look, we're dealing with some very retentive folk on this board here! I need to have all my ducks in order before posting something lest someone somewhere prove me wrong

[Marc_C]

...and how it has a chemical to make it freeze at higher temps (don't tell Save Our Canyons)...

SoC doesn't care about DV or the Wasatch Back.

The most commonly used additive for snowmaking is something called SnowMax. It's actually not a "chemical" (in the incorrect sense that most people use the term - in reality, nearly everything is a chemical) but a protein:

Snowmax was launched in the United States in 1984. The active ingredient of Snomax is a protein contained in the cellular wall of the Pseudomonas Syringae bacterium, which enables the lowering of the freezing point of water - allowing ski resorts to make snow at warmer temperatures.

[johnnash]

Well, if corn snow is really like kernels, I guess I didn't find the corny grail at Wolf Creek after all. It certainly didn't appear granular at all. But in terms of how it skied, it matches the description -- velvety, with a bit of top layer peeling off with each turn, and good support underneath.

That liftie earlier was saying something about the snow being down to the man-made stuff put down earlier in the season and how it has a chemical to make it freeze at higher temps (don't tell Save Our Canyons) and I wonder if that has something to do with this. I mean, he was no genius, this liftie, but maybe there's something in the water, after all?

On the chemical, Tony has referred to how they ''salt'' at Mammoth, which puzzled me, since I generally think of salt (and other impurities as well) as lowering the freezing point of snow and ice. But there are many salts, and I guess some may have the opposite effect.

And thanks, Marc_C, for the snow glossary website -- very interesting.

[Admin]

On the chemical, Tony has referred to how they ''salt'' at Mammoth, which puzzled me, since I generally think of salt (and other impurities as well) as lowering the freezing point of snow and ice. But there are many salts, and I guess some may have the opposite effect.

Salting is most typically employed on race courses to harden them and prevent rutting, but a few including Mammoth and another one in far northern Scandinavia that operates most of the year use it as well. Actually, it has precisely the effect you'd expect: it gently softens and melts the snow. The snow pack's thermal mass, however, causes it to quickly refreeze, hardening the surface for the desired result.

[EMSC]

Well, if corn snow is really like kernels, I guess I didn't find the corny grail at Wolf Creek after all. It certainly didn't appear granular at all. But in terms of how it skied, it matches the description -- velvety, with a bit of top layer peeling off with each turn, and good support underneath.

It's all relative... Think of the size and 'volume' of a single flake of powdery snow. How big is it once it's been skied/crushed/compacted? On a relative basis 'corn' snow is huge kernels of refrozen snow but it's not necessarily anywhere the size of real corn kernels like in popcorn.

[Admin]

While we're at it, let's dispel a couple of more myths.

To produce corn, you need several nights of clear skies with below freezing temps, followed with clear skies, daytime sun, and highs above 40F.

This is what is necessary for snow that fell as powder to consolidate. Denser snow in the Sierra tends to consolidate a bit faster. Sometimes wind will do the consolidating.

The formation of corn has absolutely nothing to do with consolidation, it's all about only repeated freeze/thaw cycles. From Marc_C's link which I believe quotes Bruce Tremper:

Wet snow that has gone through repeated melt-freeze cycles is often called Corn Snow. Under Corn Snow or Melt-Freeze conditions, a crust forms on the surface that will support your weight when frozen, but turns to deep slush during the heat of the day.

Note that there's nothing there whatsoever about "consolidation." That word appears nowhere on the entire page linked to by Marc_C. It's the repeated freezing and thawing that creates the granules that constitute corn by allowing tiny amounts of water to form and percolate through the surface of the snow. "Consolidation" doesn't create those granules. Later in the season when it's even warmer still, and freezing doesn't occur, the quantity of water is greater and results in the dreaded sun cups.

Grooming is another means of consolidation.

But not corn formation, as noted above.

On some of the cooler days direct sun areas like parts of Mineral Basin may soften while west facing areas like West Rustler and the similar aspects from Regulator to Lone Pine at Snowbird remain in coral reef mode all day.

But unfortunately for that analysis, and we seem to go through this every spring on these forums, contrary to popular belief very little of Mineral Basin actually faces south. About the only south-facing terrain back there is Livin' the Dream, the lower Chamonix Chutes and the very top of Baldy Express. Most of MB faces east and southeast, which is no different than skiing Yellow Trail and Backside at Alta. Note the topo contours in Mineral Basin and the fact that the Peruvian Ridge and the ridge connecting Hidden Peak to the Twins actually runs south-southwest to north-northeast, not west to east:

Mineral Basin topo

mineralbasin_topo.jpg (169.33 KiB) Viewed 489 times

At this time of year the sun is ridiculously intense, especially in the afternoon. Mrs. Admin went out onto our deck yesterday for 30 minutes and got a sunburn. And that's at 5,000 feet, where the sun is much less intense than at 10,000 feet. On those rare days at this time of year when it's cold and cloudy enough to prevent direct west-facing lines like West Rustler, Regulator and Gad Chutes (not that the latter are skiable any more this year anyway) from softening in the strong afternoon sun, the relatively weaker morning sun is not going to be enough to soften east or southeast-facing lines in Mineral Basin, either.

[Bobby Danger]

unless those lines are at a lower elevation , ski patrol gully has been ready in the past before even cham one was even close . elevation with the senario admin has put forth would be huge . going to a ski area with lower base elevation would help dramatically , so in hence tony saying park city ,deer valley , snowbasin all the lower based ski areas would be bad i'd half to debate that one ! last weekend at snowbasin it didn't snow but two or three inches but there were no underlying tracks to deal with , you know when i say smoooooooth i mean smoooooooooooooth and the tempurature of the snow was warmer than up canyon so it was just barely frozen , and actually out on wildcat ridge i scored a true corn run the last thousand vertical coming down under the chair that was perfect !!! all due to being at a ski area with lower base ele. . timing on about the fifth morning of a strong corn cycle would probably result in the most consolidated conditions at cycle time to softing corn . after that much time cooking day after day water drains down through the snow pack to a good depth so , it takes a bit longer to become mush . my self i prefer about one quarter to one half inch on windshield smooooooooth surface and that senario plays out every year at alta once it closes alta becomes a different place !!

[rfarren]

Oddly enough the best corn I ever had was at snowbasin in late February. It was at the bottom far skiers right, late afternoon. It looked like untracked powder, and it probably was earlier that week, except that it had a sheen on the top. It wasn't very steep but still very nice. That time I got lucky, but I think I understand aspect and timing better now. That being said I think being a local is far more important to hit the corn right compared to getting untracked powder.

[SkiandflyUtah]

Porn, porn, porn...that's all you guys ever talk about...Oh Corn...well, er ah never mind.

Signed,

Emily Litella

[AndreB]

Wow, so much good informative discussion here. Glad I asked. I used to be the kid who was too afraid to raise his hand in class for fear of asking a stupid question. At 32 years old I think I've finally broken that character trait. Go me.

We just pulled into our (rented) condo in PC and we're here through at least Wednesday, possibly Friday if we feel like getting more skiing in. Nice to see that the Wasatch front got some new snow.