Le Massif: Major Cutbacks

[jamesdeluxe]

Le Massif, Quebec dropped a bomb last month by announcing that the many infrastructure upgrades over recent years haven't resulted in enough revenues to get them out of the red. They're thus closing the Maillard Express lift on the skier's right (which served the mountain's steeper terrain) and all but basic services (bathrooms, ticket booth, first aid) at the base lodge for the entire season, and no snowmaking on the upper Charlevoix trail.

No surprise that ZoneSki's thread about it is closing in on 300 posts and there are all sorts of points being made -- about the probability for big lift queues on weekends/holidays, an overwhelmed mountaintop lodge, the millions in government subventions, the negative effects on the village Petite Riviere Saint Francois, the expensive gondola that they built recently, that they're redirecting funds to a real-estate development at the bottom of the mountain, etc.
http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php/ ... 2013-2014/

Any opinions from north of the border? You certainly can't say that Le Massif doesn't offer an attractive product to many skiers. Is this a French-Canadian version of ASC?

[Admin]

Le Massif, Quebec dropped a bomb last month by announcing that the many infrastructure upgrades over recent years haven't resulted in enough revenues to get them out of the red. They're thus closing the Maillard Express lift on the skier's right (which served the mountain's steeper terrain) and all but basic services (bathrooms, ticket booth, first aid) at the base lodge for the entire season, and no snowmaking on the upper Charlevoix trail.

Well, first off, none of those measures are exactly Draconian. You can ski the mountain's westernmost sector without Maillard Express. The base lodge is now very much secondary to the mountaintop lodge (since it's construction Le Massif skis upside-down). Charlevoix never had snowmaking years ago, either, and its installation was largely intended to serve race teams who never really used it much to train (but it's pity that they destroyed that run in the process).

That said, Quebec has long had one of the most underproductive economies in our part of the world. When you have grandiose plans to develop not only a ski area but also a luxury off-mountain lodging complex and a tourist train from Quebec City, and you do it at a lightning pace, and you have an insufficient local population base to work with, and you don't really have the money, so you turn to your quasi-socialist government to fund it...who in their right mind could've seen this coming?

[jamesdeluxe]

so you turn to your quasi-socialist government to fund it

Oh well, at least he didn't blame Obama.

As a resident of a donor state that gets back 61 cents for every federal tax dollar it pays in, while a client state like Utah receives $1.07 for every dollar it contributes, the irony about the evils of socialist redistribution is rich.

[jamesdeluxe]

As someone on ZoneSki pointed out, you can't claim that Le Massif is engaging in false advertising -- they've deleted the lift and chalet mentioned above from their trail map.

[Patrick]

and you don't really have the money, so you turn to your quasi-socialist government to fund it...who in their right mind could've seen this coming?

How much have the different levels of governments have given to pro-franchises in the US versus Canada over the last 20 years? If there is any irony is where the so-called right-wing governments are giving millions to billionaires to build their stadiums, arenas and such.

That said, Quebec has long had one of the most underproductive economies in our part of the world.

Funny considering that Quebec per capital GDP is greater than Utah's....and 23 other US states. Now take into account the government debt per capital.

[Tony Crocker]

Country GDP's 2012: http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy ... 013_0.html
US 49,800, Canada 41,500

There are some individual Canadian sources showing GDP per capita in the $51,000 range. However there is little doubt that Quebec is one of the poorer provinces. http://www.zurich-base-line.com/cn_gdp_ ... _data.html

I was also under the impression that Quebec is subsidized by the Canadian federal government to tamp down the secessionist movement.

All this proves is that quasi-socialist governments in Canada can make the same kind of dumb investments that developers in the US at places like Tamarack can.

[Patrick]

There are some individual Canadian sources showing GDP per capita in the $51,000 range. However there is little doubt that Quebec is one of the poorer provinces.

It also represents like 23% of the country and had a huge manufacturing base which the high dollars is hurting (like Ontario). Oil & gas provinces with smaller population are currently the eldorado. One of the poorer provinces, all is relative. Newfoundland & Labrador used to be the poorest, but is now the 3rd richest after Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Quebec is 7th, but not far from Manitoba and BC. Ontario is 4th.

Official 2012 numbers (Statcan):
$52,367 Canada per capital GDP
$44,267 Quebec per capital
$50,290 Ontario per capital

Maybe one of the poorer provinces (I would say closer to the middle), but not as poor as certain stereotypes; it would fit pretty much close to the middle of the pack in the states and above Utah based on the numbers that I looked up. :)

I was also under the impression that Quebec is subsidized by the Canadian federal government to tamp down the secessionist movement.

An impression, but not the case. What you are talking about is what is called the equalization payments which exists in many political systems and dates from the 1950s, way prior to the start of the independence movement in the late 1960s. Yes, there was some pork-barrel politics like at many different levels (between provinces, districts, etc).

Yes, Quebec is the provinces that receives the most amount due to it larger population. So it is the Here are the per capital benefits in 2012:

PEI : $2,350
NS : $1,342
NB : $1,985
QC : $934
ON : $246
MB : $1,353

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalizati ... _in_Canada

All this proves is that quasi-socialist governments in Canada can make the same kind of dumb investments that developers in the US at places like Tamarack can.

Not sure that the government will give any money here. For example, the Quebec Government didn't give any money to subsidize the construction of the new Montreal Arena (Molson Centre now Bell Centre) and refused to give money to the previous owner of the Montreal Expos for the planed new baseball stadium. How much "public" money is a so call right-wing state was given to the Phoenix Coyotes?

[Patrick]

All that being said, I think that Le Massif were too fast in their development. The lost of that chair is important, but not the end of the world. I don't know the details of it, but it would seem that they did too many things at once. I can see the logic of that gondola-lift train connection idea, but I don't think it added much to the lift served experience. Okay, I'm not the specialist on Le Massif, as I've only skied there twice (when open) since the major expansion in 2002 and not once since they added the gondola.

Here is my last experiencein 2010, TR has been published on FTO, but I don't think it had any pictures.
http://madpatski.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... rmchasers/

[Anthony]

http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/sports ... levoix.php

Article published last month stating that the total sales of tickets last year was 170,000 . Not much considering a season of a least 120 days . Have taken 3 vacations at this area over the last 10 years and have noticed that there have not been a lot of tourists unlike Tremblant where you even have skiers from the UK . Le Massif offers good challenging skiing" ( even if they are going " Disney") where you can hike to the sides and ski the woods in solitude . Would agree with previous posts making reference to the rapid expansion without a large enough local population base to support it. Let's face it , this is a far drive from Ottawa , Toronto , Boston , NYC etc. The remaining chairs are going to be packed at peak times that's for sure .

[Tony Crocker]

How much "public" money is a so call right-wing state was given to the Phoenix Coyotes?

Just curious, did Winnipeg have to build a new arena to get the NHL back? In the US it seems that usually the middle size markets are the ones that do this to lure a team or keep it from leaving.

[longshanks]

How much "public" money is a so call right-wing state was given to the Phoenix Coyotes?

Just curious, did Winnipeg have to build a new arena to get the NHL back? In the US it seems that usually the middle size markets are the ones that do this to lure a team or keep it from leaving.

No they did not, they play at the MTS Centre.
The MTS Centre is an indoor sports arena and entertainment venue in downtown Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. The arena is the home of the Winnipeg Jets of the National Hockey League and previously served as the home of the American Hockey League's Manitoba Moose (now the St. John's IceCaps) from 2004 to 2011.
The City is Crazy for Hockey, like most of the Country.

As as for the...
and you don't really have the money, so you turn to your quasi-socialist government to fund it...who in their right mind could've seen this coming?

A bit rich coming from the home of Polygamy, Child Brides, and magic underwear... just sayin'
BTW, Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy.

[Admin]

A bit rich coming from the home of Polygamy, Child Brides, and magic underwear... just sayin'

Painting with a rather broad brush, aren't we? However, don't let the facts get in the way:

• Contrary to popular belief, not just Mormons live in Utah. In fact, we gentiles have been in the majority in Salt Lake County, by far the state's most populous, for years now.
• Contrary to popular misconception, Mormons are not FLDS or vice versa.
• Contrary to popular misconception, Mormons are opposed to polygamy, and have been for over 100 years.
• Even within the polygamous communities, child brides are fairly well limited to one small whacked out cult in Short Creek (a.k.a. the twin towns of Colorado City, Arizona and Hilldale, Utah) led from a prison cell by convicted felon Warren Jeffs.
• There are only an estimated 8,000-15,000 polygamists spread all across the Intermountain West, including Utah. They stretch all the way from Mexico (remember Mitt Romney's grandfather?) to yes, British Columbia, Canada, where one of the largest fundamentalist (read: polygamous) sects is led by Warren Jeffs protege Winston Blackmore in the Creston Valley settlement of Bountiful. So, is British Columbia now "the home of Polygamy, Child Brides, and magic underwear?" In reality, it's no more or less so than Utah is, except for perhaps the "magic underwear" part.

None of which, of course, has anything even remotely to do with the fact that Quebec operates a quasi-socialist government.

And speaking of which, any American who advocates a Canadian-style healthcare system should spend some time in a Quebec hospital. I have, as I watched my father-in-law slowly die in one. I was horrified at the lack of any monitoring equipment whatsoever in his room, and even the run-down nature of the facility itself -- and this was in what was supposedly one of Quebec City's better hospitals. If he died while no one was visiting, the staff wouldn't even know that he was dead until they wheeled in their rusted metal cart to give him a pill. It felt like I was behind the old Iron Curtain somewhere. I've been assured by some other Canadians that there's a dramatic difference in quality from province to province and they claim that Quebec has the worst of it, but as you said I'm "just sayin'."

[Patrick]

Painting with a rather broad brush, aren't we? However, don't let the facts get in the way

Exactly, however your comment on Quebec started it.

None of which, of course, has anything even remotely to do with the fact that Quebec operates a quasi-socialist government.

Well you think that everything left of you is quasi-socialist.

And speaking of which, any American who advocates a Canadian-style healthcare system should spend some time in a Quebec hospital. (...)I've been assured by some other Canadians that there's a dramatic difference in quality from province to province and they claim that Quebec has the worst of it, but as you said I'm "just sayin'."

I have, 3 days for 24-hour/day in a intensive in a coma then palliative care of Quebec Hospital of 13,000 people. Not even 30 minutes elapse between the moment I feel asleep next to my mom and the time that the nurse woke me up to tell me it was finally over. I can't even say enough how my mom was well treated at that Hospital. I've been too may time at the hospital...wait time can be long when you go to ER with a non-super urgent condition, but I've been rush through in my past (unfortunately - prefer not being sick).

[Spensar]

Sad to hear about Le Massif. My family should have been a big fat target market for them. We aren't diehards like most on this forum, but for a number of years we did at least one or two ski trips a year with the kids, dropping a good bit of change on each one. Loved the idea of Le Massif, read a lot about it, then ended up a Jay, Placid or Tremblant. The distance was just a bit further than we wanted to trek for a trip of a week or less. I don't remember them having a presence at the Ottawa ski show in the fall either, and am not sure where or if the marketing effort was aimed. Reading about the numbers doesn't shock me.