Killington, VT 10/29/2005 - Opening Day
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riverc0il
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the big issue here in VT is the ground has yet to freeze even at most higher elevation. on my three skis this past week, i noticed so much melting it was crazy, even at higher elevation in 28 degrees at cannon, the ground was warming the snow from the bottom. not something that normally happens when 1-2 feet of snow falls! also, it hit 60 up here in VT today, and not much less than that at the base of the ski areas. definitely will be a fast melt this week and i am beginning to have doubts about hike to skiing this coming weekend.
I find it hard to believe that the ground is frozen in SoCal at 7,000 feet on Nov. 1. Average high for the date is 59, low 28. What does happen out here is that almost every storm, even the little 3-inchers, is followed by a day or two of cold air. At Big Bear they usually get more snow out of the 2 days of snowmaking than they do from the storm itself.
Last Oct. 30 was different in that most of the snow was natural. But they were still using the snowmaking on the lower mountain Saturday morning, as they had presumably the previous couple of days since the storm, in an effort to keep things going.
So here's another question for you easterners. Rivercoil climbed and skied Cannon last Wednesday. Was it cold enough to make snow then? How many hours of potential snowmaking were there between when the storm ended Tuesday and it got warm Sunday/Monday? Snow Summit would have cranked their snowmaking every minute of that potential window in an effort to stay open.
Big Bear has a very low humidity climate which is a detriment to natural snow but helps their snowmaking. I know it's nearly always high humidity in the East, so maybe the combination of temps and humidity weren't good enough for snowmaking last week.
Last Oct. 30 was different in that most of the snow was natural. But they were still using the snowmaking on the lower mountain Saturday morning, as they had presumably the previous couple of days since the storm, in an effort to keep things going.
So here's another question for you easterners. Rivercoil climbed and skied Cannon last Wednesday. Was it cold enough to make snow then? How many hours of potential snowmaking were there between when the storm ended Tuesday and it got warm Sunday/Monday? Snow Summit would have cranked their snowmaking every minute of that potential window in an effort to stay open.
Big Bear has a very low humidity climate which is a detriment to natural snow but helps their snowmaking. I know it's nearly always high humidity in the East, so maybe the combination of temps and humidity weren't good enough for snowmaking last week.
riverc0il
New member
aside from marc's point about the dew point, temps were just barely below freezing as noted by the thick and wet snow. temps have fluctuated rapidly and only short windows of snow making have been available. could areas have blown some snow last week? absolutely. but with the temps this week being above freezing and causing melt, it doesn't seem worth the effort.
Current temperatures and forecasted temperatures for the next week are still on the mild side. There has not been and does not appear to be any cold air in place that is forecasted for the north east. The ski areas want to see a significant prolonged cold front that will last and help protect any snow from melting after being made. One or two cold days and nights with a forecasted warm front on the horizon would cancel any plans on snow making. Unfortunately we will have to wait the warm weather out. Right now we need the ground to freeze up to help any snow to accumulate natural or machine made.
I've seen temps as low as the 20s and even mt. flurries forecasted for tonite, not that the guns are gonna fire thru that window or anything but at least it's a good sign. Next coupla days look generally mild but forecasted temps do at least head back downward come Sunday (exactly how far is ambiguous but at least it'll be the right direction!).
powderfreak
New member
From reading this thread, being at Killington on Saturday, and hiking to ski natural snow a couple of days over the last week or so, I must say that there is no way Killington could've stayed open this week. I hiked and skied Bolton (base elevation above 2,000ft) a week ago from yesterday...that was the day after the big storm and it was still snowing up high. Ground wasn't frozen at all, which might have led to the decent base for weekend skiing...heated from the bottom created a mushy, wet, caking bottom 10" while the top 10" were much more enjoyable to ski in. However, that non-frozen ground ate the snowpack from the ground up (like someone mentioned in this thread, sorry forgot name) and very warm temperatures melted the snow off very quickly.
Saturday at Killington was amazing. They get a lot of credit in my book for pulling that off. Not sure they needed the extra lower elevation snowmaking they were worried about because I skied natural snow trails straight back to the K1 without a problem.
I wasn't in the mountains on Sunday...don't know what the melting was like.
On Monday, I went back up to Bolton in the afternoon with a friend for a Halloween evening ski. Wow what a difference a day or two makes. Bolton got snowfall similar to Killington from what I saw on Wed and Sat. Monday, temperatures were in the 50's all the way to 2500ft. Dewpoints were rising as well and went above 32...a dewpoint above 32 will eat snow alive as the wet-bulb is way above freezing then. Anyone remember last year when Loveland had a picture of some guy making snow in a short-sleeved shirt? That's what low humidity does and snowmaking is possible as long as the wet-bulb is below freezing. By definition the wet-bulb is: "It is the lowest temperature to which air can be cooled by evaporating water into it at a constant atmospheric pressure." So if the wet-bulb is below freezing due to very low humidity, you could make snow with temperatures in the 40's as long as you are able to pump moisture into the air until evaporational cooling drops the temp to freezing or below.
Here is where Southern Cali can get away with warmth. The lack of humidity out west plays a huge roll in them beling able to make snow and keep it. If it gets into the 50's but the dewpoint is in the teens...you won't see much reduction in snowpack and overnight lows will likely be below freezing but still not getting near the dewpoint. An overnight low of 25 with a dewpoint of 15 would create amazing snowmaking conditions. Thus, Southern Cali resorts can likely at least refresh their snowpack overnight even if the daytime goes into the 50's. Back east, once the dewpoint rises above 32 you can forget any help from nature in keeping that snow around which is what happened on Monday. Add in a downsloping mountain wind created by the differential heating over snowcovered areas and non-snowcovered areas and the snow just disappeared.
Its been warm since then and the forecast was for that to occur. I do believe the ski areas in question made the right (really the only decision as skiing really wasn't possible even at 3,000ft on tuesday) decision.
Killington probably could've been open on Monday from the KBL up from whatever they used snowmaking on. Maybe they could've had some cool marketing Halloween ski day or something, but its risky as what happens when that stuff melts out at 2pm on Monday? Close early or ruin the great weekend press by making people hike down across the bare spots and rivers? Also they didn't make snow on much from what I saw...and they really couldn't make any snow during the entire storm or even after the storm due to high dewpoints and near 100% humidity in the mountains. That snowfell at 30-32 degrees and the dewpoint was right there with it. Some of the snow might've even fell with above freezing temperatures as rain changed to snow with temperatures in the mid 30's. Throw in a stale airmass behind the storm that didn't allow for much drying...and temperatures hovered around 30-32 for a couple days. Moist snowpack and moist ground kept dewpoints up and any spot that cleared out for radiational cooling saw near instant dense fog. Needless to say, conditions were not ripe for snowmaking 90% of the time between Wed and Sat.
Meteorologically, the west has a distinct advantage in most winter weather aspects...they do rule in most areas of winter weather. Except October 2005 snowfall
Saturday at Killington was amazing. They get a lot of credit in my book for pulling that off. Not sure they needed the extra lower elevation snowmaking they were worried about because I skied natural snow trails straight back to the K1 without a problem.
I wasn't in the mountains on Sunday...don't know what the melting was like.
On Monday, I went back up to Bolton in the afternoon with a friend for a Halloween evening ski. Wow what a difference a day or two makes. Bolton got snowfall similar to Killington from what I saw on Wed and Sat. Monday, temperatures were in the 50's all the way to 2500ft. Dewpoints were rising as well and went above 32...a dewpoint above 32 will eat snow alive as the wet-bulb is way above freezing then. Anyone remember last year when Loveland had a picture of some guy making snow in a short-sleeved shirt? That's what low humidity does and snowmaking is possible as long as the wet-bulb is below freezing. By definition the wet-bulb is: "It is the lowest temperature to which air can be cooled by evaporating water into it at a constant atmospheric pressure." So if the wet-bulb is below freezing due to very low humidity, you could make snow with temperatures in the 40's as long as you are able to pump moisture into the air until evaporational cooling drops the temp to freezing or below.
Here is where Southern Cali can get away with warmth. The lack of humidity out west plays a huge roll in them beling able to make snow and keep it. If it gets into the 50's but the dewpoint is in the teens...you won't see much reduction in snowpack and overnight lows will likely be below freezing but still not getting near the dewpoint. An overnight low of 25 with a dewpoint of 15 would create amazing snowmaking conditions. Thus, Southern Cali resorts can likely at least refresh their snowpack overnight even if the daytime goes into the 50's. Back east, once the dewpoint rises above 32 you can forget any help from nature in keeping that snow around which is what happened on Monday. Add in a downsloping mountain wind created by the differential heating over snowcovered areas and non-snowcovered areas and the snow just disappeared.
Its been warm since then and the forecast was for that to occur. I do believe the ski areas in question made the right (really the only decision as skiing really wasn't possible even at 3,000ft on tuesday) decision.
Killington probably could've been open on Monday from the KBL up from whatever they used snowmaking on. Maybe they could've had some cool marketing Halloween ski day or something, but its risky as what happens when that stuff melts out at 2pm on Monday? Close early or ruin the great weekend press by making people hike down across the bare spots and rivers? Also they didn't make snow on much from what I saw...and they really couldn't make any snow during the entire storm or even after the storm due to high dewpoints and near 100% humidity in the mountains. That snowfell at 30-32 degrees and the dewpoint was right there with it. Some of the snow might've even fell with above freezing temperatures as rain changed to snow with temperatures in the mid 30's. Throw in a stale airmass behind the storm that didn't allow for much drying...and temperatures hovered around 30-32 for a couple days. Moist snowpack and moist ground kept dewpoints up and any spot that cleared out for radiational cooling saw near instant dense fog. Needless to say, conditions were not ripe for snowmaking 90% of the time between Wed and Sat.
Meteorologically, the west has a distinct advantage in most winter weather aspects...they do rule in most areas of winter weather. Except October 2005 snowfall