Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby jamesdeluxe » Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:27 am

Sbooker wrote:I think Landeck in Austria would be a great base with St Anton and the other Arlberg resorts, Ischgl, Serfaus, Solden and the glaciers of Stubai, Pitzal and Kaunternal less than an hours drive away.

Good suggestion, and Landeck is a convenient hub for the Postbus if you don't want to deal with driving and parking at the various ski circuits mentioned above. During a visit in 2013, I took the train from Munich, then used the bus system the entire week and it worked very well to hit all four areas in the Paznaun Valley: Ischgl, See, Kappl, and Galtür (see my reports from back then).

Also, the attractive ski area of Venet is right above Landeck -- in one of the photos, you can see the Autobahn directly below.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Sbooker » Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:28 pm

^^^^^^

Venet looks great and has decent elevation also - 2200m. There really is a wealth of ski areas in that general vicinity isn't there.

I would be interested to hear Tony's opinion on pre-booking a Christmas skiing holiday for next year. I understand he'll suggest not to do so period but next year I will have to run the gauntlet due to a number of circumstances. I'm specifically looking at British Columbia or Europe. I'll have about 3 and a half weeks from Christmas onward. Cheapest flights to both regions will be available in February (6 weeks away) and with the flight cost being not insignificant I'll want to have made a call by then.

I will be targeting the Landeck area and also the Tarentaise for Europe (bridged by a train journey across Switzerland) whilst I imagine British Columbia will be more of a 'couple of days here and a couple of days there' style road trip.

I'm thinking the best bet may be Europe? Using this year as an example British Columbia is a bit sad and even if Europe hadn't had a lot of natural snow there's always the fall back of skiing groomers with their fantastic man made snow set ups.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Tony Crocker » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:30 pm

sbooker wrote:I would be interested to hear Tony's opinion on pre-booking a Christmas skiing holiday for next year. I understand he'll suggest not to do so period

Christmas being one out of 3 weeks is not the same in terms of being a poor value as it being the only week. 3 week vacations to Europe (or any long distance destination) almost by definition have some degree of value by amortizing fixed travel costs over more ski days.

This is the worst Christmas in Whistler's history, the exception vs. the best overall early season track record for a large scale ski area in North America. Elsewhere in BC, yes it's a road warrior trip as areas are quite spread out. And the roads are not like US Interstate highways, so lengthy drives in the dark after skiing may not be a great idea. Whistler plus the Okanagan (Apex, Big White, Silver Star, maybe Sun Peaks) would be a viable 3+ week trip. Go to the Okanagan first as Whistler's lodging prices are jacked up for Christmas Week.

As far as Europe is concerned, I wouldn't discourage it for sbooker with two caveats.
1) Be aware you will just be skiing groomers in some seasons. I don't think that's deal breaker for sbooker and family, particularly given the scale of snowmaking coverage in places like much of Austria and the Dolomites plus the other amenities of skiing in the Alps.
2) The tougher part is whether you think you can choose resorts and book lodging last minute. I think only that first week right after Christmas will need to be booked in advance. I'll anticipate James and recommend the Sandhof in Lech (nice place with dinners included, good value, high snowfall reliability). I would be trying to reserve that NOW, as it's relatively small and probably has a lot of repeat customers.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Sbooker » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:53 pm

Tony Crocker wrote:
sbooker wrote:I would be interested to hear Tony's opinion on pre-booking a Christmas skiing holiday for next year. I understand he'll suggest not to do so period

Christmas being one out of 3 weeks is not the same in terms of being a poor value as it being the only week. 3 week vacations to Europe (or any long distance destination) almost by definition have some degree of value by amortizing fixed travel costs over more ski days.

This is the worst Christmas in Whistler's history, the exception vs. the best overall early season track record for a large scale ski area in North America. Elsewhere in BC, yes it's a road warrior trip as areas are quite spread out. And the roads are not like US Interstate highways, so lengthy drives in the dark after skiing may not be a great idea. Whistler plus the Okanagan (Apex, Big White, Silver Star, maybe Sun Peaks) would be a viable 3+ week trip. Go to the Okanagan first as Whistler's lodging prices are jacked up for Christmas Week.

As far as Europe is concerned, I wouldn't discourage it for sbooker with two caveats.
1) Be aware you will just be skiing groomers in some seasons. I don't think that's deal breaker for sbooker and family, particularly given the scale of snowmaking coverage in places like much of Austria and the Dolomites plus the other amenities of skiing in the Alps.
2) The tougher part is whether you think you can choose resorts and book lodging last minute. I think only that first week right after Christmas will need to be booked in advance. I'll anticipate James and recommend the Sandhof in Lech (nice place with dinners included, good value, high snowfall reliability). I would be trying to reserve that NOW, as it's relatively small and probably has a lot of repeat customers.


Thanks Tony.
The beauty about being permanent intermediates from Brisbane Australia is that even though we wish to ski powder every day we're on a ski hill if we are 'stuck' skiing groomers we're still blissfully happy. :-D

The BC idea would be to fly into Seattle and grab a car from there. The flights are much cheaper than flying into Vancouver and the car rental prices and options are better too. On the way to Canada I would like to get a day at Mt Baker. I believe it's pretty much a sure thing for snow even early in the season. And yes the Okanagan (and maybe Revelstoke) with Whistler at the end would be the idea.

On the Europe possibility we would be comfortable booking last minute aside from the new year week. I checked out the Sandhof and whilst it looks flash your idea of good value and mine may differ here a bit. Unless I am reading it wrong it looks to be about 690 Euro per night for my family. That's about $7000 aussie pesos for a week. I usually try to keep lodging average cost (not half board of course) at $350 aud per night including breakfast. I've never had any problem getting nice digs at that rate and often average almost half that (hello Salt Lake City, Jackson Hole and British Columbia). The reality is Europe lodging costs are a bit higher than your side of the Atlantic though.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby jamesdeluxe » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:14 am

Sbooker wrote:I checked out the Sandhof and whilst it looks flash your idea of good value and mine may differ here a bit. Unless I am reading it wrong it looks to be about 690 Euro per night for my family.

The reason Tony and I always recommend the Sandhof in Lech is their noteworthy off-peak deals, e.g. the January Sport Weeks at €1280 per person: seven nights lodging, half board (excellent/copious cuisine including a couple special dinner events), "wellness" offerings, and a six-day Arlberg pass (alone worth €337). It's usually an additional €100 or so for the last two weeks of January.

During the holidays and Euro/UK school breaks, it's every man for himself and they charge whatever the market can bear, which is what you're referring to.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Sbooker » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:54 pm

jamesdeluxe wrote:
Sbooker wrote:I checked out the Sandhof and whilst it looks flash your idea of good value and mine may differ here a bit. Unless I am reading it wrong it looks to be about 690 Euro per night for my family.

The reason Tony and I always recommend the Sandhof in Lech is their noteworthy off-peak deals, e.g. the January Sport Weeks at €1280 per person: seven nights lodging, half board (excellent/copious cuisine including a couple special dinner events), "wellness" offerings, and a six-day Arlberg pass (alone worth €337). It's usually an additional €100 or so for the last two weeks of January.

During the holidays and Euro/UK school breaks, it's every man for himself and they charge whatever the market can bear, which is what you're referring to.


That sounds more bearable. Thanks.
Because these trips are pretty expensive and time consuming coming from Oz I would like to tick a couple of bucket list items while I’m in the region. And Ischgl is one of those. Whilst Lech seems a great spot to ski the Arlberg areas I’m wondering if there is somewhere more centralised that would allow easier access? Hence my earlier suggestion of Landeck. Any recommendations for there?
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby One Wolf » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:07 am

We're back. Expensive but excellent trip! This was our first time visiting both Vail and Snowmass. Thoroughly enjoyed both.

I booked all of our flights, car, and condos on Monday 12/16 - so basically 7 days in advance of travel. One advantage to late booking is that the condos we booked were available for single nights whereas had I booked them earlier, they would have required 5 or 7 night commitments. I was surprised at the availability of rooms at both Vail and Snowmass considering I was booking less than a week ahead of arrival for Christmas week. Also very surprised to get very convenient flights for only $428 so I bought those instead of using reward points (which were 2.5x jacked up over holiday travel).

Monday 12/23
  • Flew to Denver, carry-ons only, we're good at packing light and we knew both condos would have washer/dryers.
  • Rented full size car from Avis (Ford Fusion hybrid, what a joke). $525 for the car for 10 days, not too bad. A minivan or SUV would have more than doubled that so we assumed a little risk wrt having enough space for 4 people and our stuff and also possibility of getting a RWD. Both worked out although we were packed in tight.
  • Stopped in Frisco strip mall and the 4 of us split up for: groceries (Safeway), bulk hand warmers (Walmart), liquor store, and Taco bell (to go). 45 minutes total, parking lot and all stores were a complete zoo.
  • Arrive Manor Vail Lodge, 1BR condo. Beautiful resort, excellent service.
  • Rented skis/boards/boots at Vail Sports across the street from condo (Golden Peak location).
Tue-Thu 12/24-12/26 Vail (3 nights, 3 days)
Skied/boarded 8:30am to 4pm each day (3 days) with very few stops.
  • Weather and Ski Conditions: 90%+ of terrain open including all of the bowls except Siberia (which opened up Thursday). Conditions were very good. Low to mid 20's all three days. Mostly sunny Tuesday and Thursday, 4-6" of powder on Wednesday (Christmas day).
  • Crowds:We started each day at 8:30am sharp on the #6 chair across from the condo and there was never a lift line. 6 to 11 to 17 and we're in China Bowl and from there just went where the sun and conditions took us - generally spent 80% of our time in the bowls, mostly the Sun bowls, China, and BSB. No lift lines to speak of and in the rare case there was one we always use the singles line - never waited more than 5 minutes, average more like 1-2 min with mostly walk-ons. The bowls were generally wide open, people-wise. We I don't know if we were just lucky or what but it was certainly not terribly crowded at least based on what I expected.
  • Accommodations: Manor Vail Lodge at Golden Peak is extremely nice. 1BR so the boys got pull-out couch and murphy bed, not bad at all. Very nice place, very updated, felt very swanky, the Admiral was happy. Free breakfast in one of the conference rooms every day that was excellent - lots of properly prepared hot options (eggs, meats, french toast, pancakes) and an omelette station. Extensive other items. We were pleasantly surprised and my boys can put a serious hurting on a good buffet, especially free ones. Made it easy to skip lunches in lieu of protein bars on the lift. Condo is across the street from the Golden Peak base, 3 minute walk from room to ski valet (Vail Sports) and lift. Hot tubs were fortunately right outside our room down one floor. It always surprises me the lack of people using the hot tubs at the end of the day. We are religious about it because my sad muscles demand it, but generally were the only ones in the tub at the end of each day. We saw maybe a dozen people in the tubs other than us over the entire 3 days and the resort was massive - easily hundreds of people staying there. On Thursday, my wife didn't ski and generously packed up the car and checked us out while the boys skied/boarded. At 4pm we hit the hot tub and then headed to Snowmass. Stopped in Glenwood Springs for dinner at the Pullman, very nice. We wished we were driving through those mountains during daylight as it was obviously a beautiful drive.
  • Price/value: Everything was ridiculously expensive, yes. Lift tickets brutal. We prepared and ate all our own meals in the room except for the free breakfasts and Christmas Eve dinner we ate at The George https://thegeorgevail.com/which was actually very good and very reasonably priced ($26 filet was excellent). And not crowded at all - no reservation, walked in, sat immediately at 7pm on Christmas Eve. Again very pleasantly surprised.

Fri-Mon 12/27-12/30 Snowmass (4 nights, 4 days):
Arrived Thursday evening and rented equipment from Incline (local shop). Very reasonable prices and very good stuff.

Skied/boarded 8:30am to 4pm all 4 days with very few stops.

Conditions were excellent. Two bluebird days, two cloudy days with snow showers, probably 8" total snow over the 4 days. The last two days got cold - single digit highs at the peaks, 11-12° at the base. Didn't slow us down.

We stayed at the Top of the Village condos, ski-in/out, and it was awesome. Clearly built in the 70's, we lucked out with a very updated 2BR unit. Right on the slopes, big living room with massive windows facing the slopes, all for the same price as the 1BR at Vail across the street from the slopes!

Hardly any lift lines - usually very nearly ski-on or maybe a 1 minute wait. The Village Express was usually the longest line - maybe 5 minutes max if that (again, we go single line).


We fell in love with Snowmass. Prior to this trip, our previous favorite destination was Whistler but I think now we've found our new favorite in Snowmass, especially when considering access (i.e. flying to Denver or Aspen vs Vancouver; and weather/conditions risk at Whistler). We loved the seemingly endless open terrain and options at Snowmass. We spent some time at Elk Camp the first day but probably most of our time at Big Burn and eventually High Alpine. The skiing (and boarding) was just amazing. Took the poma to the peak once, but did not do the head wall - too much for me. But so many long and varied blue and black runs to enjoy: some groomed, some powdery, some trees, some wide open, some flat, some bumpy, etc - so many options and all very fun and challenging.

Snowmass lines/crowds were similar to Vail - the base area was crowded for sure but the slopes in general were not. We took lots of photos and video and were commenting last night watching the videos how few people were around - we were often the only ones for long stretches and we were covering a lot of ground fast. Boarder son (#2) spent a lot of time at the terrain park, didn't quite perfect his 360 but very close. All three of us hung together probably 50% of the time and at least 2 of us probably 70% of the time, the other 30% we were doing our own thing.

We hit Aspen Mountain one morning out of the 4 (our last name is Ajax so we felt like it was a requirement). I don't need to do that again - Snowmass is enough for me. Apsen the town was nothing like I expected - for some reason I expected a larger version of Teluride or maybe even something like Park City. It was neither - more like a high end outdoor mall. Snowmass Mall and Village was more than enough activity and food options for us (we generally ate all our meals in the condo).

Skied right up until the lifts closed on the 4th day then hot-tub, then got in the car and drove back to Denver - returned car and stayed at the airport Westin (points), flew out first thing in the morning.

Vail was nice also but you have to do more planning as to where you want to go - and no matter how much planning we did it seemed there were a lot of catwalks involved to get somewhere else. Not a huge deal but boy #2 (boarder) hates catwalks, understandably. Vail is all about those bowls - I surely get that now. They are beautiful, peaceful, and perfectly awesome to ski.

Next year perhaps the alps. Lots will depend on where boy #2 ends up in college - he is making his decisions now. If his spring break aligns with boy #1 then we're back to early March skiing and will have more options.

Thanks to this group for all the very helpful input - very much appreciated!! Sorry for this lengthy review - half way through I realized I was overdoing it but decided this way I can go back and look at it later myself. :-D
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby EMSC » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:54 pm

Always interesting to see a fresh viewpoint/report on 'local' areas I've been to many times.

Especially when they include things like Manor Vail (been in many, many times) and The George (I know the owners).

Glad you had a fun trip out this way. Vail will be much more crowded shortly once the generally insane up-charges over holiday weeks diminish to merely very expensive. Snowmass otoh is far enough away from Denver that it won't get too much more crowded except when any big pow days will also bring out the locals once at 100% open.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby jamesdeluxe » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:10 pm

Helpful feedback. I've never been to Snowmass (and won't until I purchase an Ikon Pass, maybe next year); however, you seem to confirm a lot of what I've heard.

Add a few photos to these detailed descriptions and you have an official trip report!
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Sbooker » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:47 pm

Great report. It's fantastic you had a great time.
Interesting that you rated Snowmass higher than Vail. My lot loved Snowmass too. I guess your assessment is another reason I'm unlikely to be an Epic Pass holder any time soon.
It sounds like you'll get back there at some point. Maybe a day at Highlands would be a good idea? I liked that hill more than Aspen Mountain itself.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Tony Crocker » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:26 pm

Yes, too bad you didn't try Highlands. However Temerity and the hike to the bowl are very demanding. If you balked at the poma runs or Hanging Valley at Snowmass you would not have considered those. But if you go back, Highlands is probably the most scenic and worth a day of your time.

EMSC wrote:Vail will be much more crowded shortly once the generally insane up-charges over holiday weeks diminish to merely very expensive.

I heard at Mammoth that last year holiday crowds were flat or down while the rest of the season was up. Most SoCal people probably bought base Ikon and avoided the holidays. Vail before Christmas I would not expect any crowd issues anyway. And Aspen/Snowmass is manageable even during peak periods.

Terrain wise I prefer Vail to Snowmass. You need to mix in Ajax and Highlands to change that view IMHO. Vail usually gets more snow but this year Vail and Aspen are running equal so far.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Sbooker » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:36 pm

Tony Crocker wrote:Yes, too bad you didn't try Highlands. However Temerity and the hike to the bowl are very demanding. If you balked at the poma runs or Hanging Valley at Snowmass you would not have considered those. But if you go back, Highlands is probably the most scenic and worth a day of your time.

EMSC wrote:Vail will be much more crowded shortly once the generally insane up-charges over holiday weeks diminish to merely very expensive.

I heard at Mammoth that last year holiday crowds were flat or down while the rest of the season was up. Most SoCal people probably bought base Ikon and avoided the holidays. Vail before Christmas I would not expect any crowd issues anyway. And Aspen/Snowmass is manageable even during peak periods.

Terrain wise I prefer Vail to Snowmass. You need to mix in Ajax and Highlands to change that view IMHO. Vail usually gets more snow but this year Vail and Aspen are running equal so far.


Just doing a bit of light research for my days in Aspen/Snowmass which are quickly approaching. Is there any way to 'lap' the Hanging Valley area of Snowmass without taking two lifts. From looking at the trail map it appears that both Alpine Springs and High Alpine lifts are required to get to the top again?
It looks like the Headwall area can be accessed by just the one lift (Sheer Bliss)?
The couple of days I had there at New Year 16/17 were great but we spent most time in the Big Burn/Elk Camp and Campground areas. I don't even know if the Hanging Valley and Headwall areas were open at that time. I suspect they may not have been even though it was a pretty good start to the year.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Tony Crocker » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:07 am

sbooker wrote:Just doing a bit of light research for my days in Aspen/Snowmass which are quickly approaching. Is there any way to 'lap' the Hanging Valley area of Snowmass without taking two lifts. From looking at the trail map it appears that both Alpine Springs and High Alpine lifts are required to get to the top again?

That is correct.

sbooker wrote:It looks like the Headwall area can be accessed by just the one lift (Sheer Bliss)?

The skier's right portion can be accessed from Sheer Bliss but the steeps there are short with a long runout. Headwall and longer fall lines require using the poma.

The two questions above illustrate the reason I'm not that big a fan of Snowmass. The more challenging terrain requires multiple lift access with rather short steep fall lines and long runouts. The upside is that Snowmass is good on a powder day because it's hard to track out a layout like that very fast.

sbooker wrote:The couple of days I had there at New Year 16/17 were great but we spent most time in the Big Burn/Elk Camp and Campground areas. I don't even know if the Hanging Valley and Headwall areas were open at that time. I suspect they may not have been even though it was a pretty good start to the year.

These are the last sectors of Aspen/Snowmass to open. And when they first open only a few lines are skiable. I would not expect a problem in sbooker's early March timeframe though.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby jamesdeluxe » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:05 pm

Marc_C wrote:the problem isn't the damages but liability.

I'm flying to Zurich tomorrow and and renting a car. Sorry Coronavirus, I ain't cancelling. After further review, all European rental companies have to provide full third-party liability, so between that and the credit-card collision damage waiver, it truly is cheaper to rent cars over there than in the U.S.
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Re: Where's the best 2019 Christmas snow destination?

Postby Tony Crocker » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:03 pm

I'm not cancelling Europe either. As I'll be alone I'm formulating plans a bit differently. Richard replaced one of his siblings last minute on a trip to Club Med Val Thorens in early February. It was all inclusive, nominal extra charge for being in a single room, good food. More important is that it including 5 days with guides and the guided groups were at 6 ability ranges. So I booked March 22-29 (all trips are Sunday-Sunday). For I nominal $80 I took the trip insurance in case Delta or the US government obstructs the trip. The trip insurance is cheap because it's not a refund but a rain check good for a year, sort of like the way some of the cat ski places in Canada did in 2005. So I'm fine with skiing the Trois Vallees next year instead of this year if it comes to that.
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