Jamesdeluxe did an exceptional job on a new resort feature, conveying the current situation at Belleayre. His article is published at http://www.firsttracksonline.com/index. ... e&sid=4308
Belleayre
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Great article!!! We have a place up the road from Bell and are very interested in what is going to happen there. And yes, things have improved a lot. I find it interesting that now that Bell is drawing more skiers...Hunter and Windham are complaining. They didn't seem to care years ago.
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
James hit the nail on the head..
Hunter used to be my day mountain. Bellearye is now my 1st choice for a day trip. The skiing is good but the vibe is great. When you are there you get a warm fuzzy feeling :wink:
If it doesn't rain :evil: i will be there again this saturday.
Hunter used to be my day mountain. Bellearye is now my 1st choice for a day trip. The skiing is good but the vibe is great. When you are there you get a warm fuzzy feeling :wink:
If it doesn't rain :evil: i will be there again this saturday.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Thanks, sports fans.
8)
8)
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
The Battle Royale continues:
http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/index.html
http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/index.html
jamesdeluxe":eqt2gth7 said:
IMHO - that's a bunch of nonsense. It may be from James' article, but I read this year in some of the press about Belleayre that the state Belleayre up and running before Hunter and Windham opened up. The state has every right to run parks and recreational facilities for the public. If private operators then came to the area and opened competing facilities, and choose a business model that puts them at a disadvantage, then they have only themselves to blame.
Plus, opposing the expansion is just plain STOOPID. The goal should be to get more skiers to the Catskills, period. More skiers at B should mean more skiers at H and W too. I'd love to buy a little cabin up there and ski all 3, and Plattekill on the good days, if the Belleayre expansion goes through. It's like Starbucks -- they get you hooked and it's good to have one on any corner.
James, do you know any organizations (other than the developer) who are pushing back against these shortsighted clowns?
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
ts01":30n9zax4 said:
The Coalition to Save Belleayre fired back this press release today:
Coalition to Save Belleayre Chairman Joe Kelly reacted with increased frustration to the news this week that legislation forming a blue ribbon commission to study the state’s participation in the recreation industry was passed by the New York State Legislature. “This legislation was pushed through by Greene County real estate interests in protectionist efforts to grab an ever greater share of the skier visits to the Catskill Region,” said Kelly. “We call on Governor Paterson to veto this legislation and urge all Belleayre Mt. supporters to call and e-mail the governor on this matter.”
“The Ulster County Legislature has been totally AWOL on this issue,” said Kelly, who started his call for action with Dave Donaldson, Chairman of that body. “The inattention of this county administration to this issue is mind-boggling to me,” Kelly said yesterday, less than a week after union members were at the County Legislature begging for stronger support of the ski resort. “These governmental officials say tourism is important to the county,” said Kelly. “But they sit back silently while Greene County relentlessly attacks the biggest attraction in western Ulster County. If they aren’t willing to fight for a property that pulls 200,000 visitors a year across the county from Kingston to Highmount, what will they fight for?”
Urging Donaldson and his colleagues in county government to get moving, Kelly urged them to take swift action to try to have the legislation vetoed. Kelly called for a strong public statement supporting Belleayre and its role as an economic catalyst for the Central Catskills and urged the legislature to condemn, in the strongest language possible, the unprecedented attack on Belleayre Mt. by Greene County and its allies Hunter and Windham. “Wayne Speenburgh, Chairman of the Greene County Legislature, is in fact attacking Ulster County economic assets,” said Kelly adding that this county should not stand for it and should take strong action to prevent it.
“Private interests in Greene County are looking for a competitive advantage by attacking Belleayre,” said the long time ski center booster. The DEC is successful because they turn out a better product than Hunter or Windham. Hunter’s problem is its own reputation, not Belleayre. The State is mandated by the Constitution to operate Belleayre in a manner that benefits its citizens and provides an economic catalyst for the local community. It is succeeding enormously in both.”
Kelly, who had to battle in 1984 to keep Belleayre from being mothballed, sees this fight as a bigger threat than closure. “Real estate interests in Greene County are spending an incredible amount of money on this issue. They should not trump the will of the people of the State of New York and the economic interests of Ulster County. In 1987, voters all across the state reaffirmed the state’s position in the ski industry by passing a constitutional amendment calling for Belleayre, Whiteface and Gore to be expanded. We’re still waiting,” said Kelly.
Calling on Governor Paterson to avoid signing the commission legislation, Kelly also demanded stronger action from the ski center’s elected representatives. “We need a bill to protect the right of the State of New York to provide public recreation at a reasonable price for all its citizens, not just the rich,” said Kelly, “and I’ll fight as long as I have to, to make this happen.”
Kelly, who with colleagues in the Partners for Progress group supporting Belleayre expansion, took two buses of protestors to Albany in March, said it might be time to board the buses again. “We will try to do this by mail, e-mail and phone,” said Kelly.
“But if we have to take the buses to the Ulster County Legislature to get them off the dime, maybe that’s what we’ll do. It is baffling to us that in an election year, when tourism is being pursued all over the state as an answer to economic hard times, that Ulster County, can absorb an unprecedented attack by a neighboring county on one of its major economic engines, without reacting in any way.”
People who want to contact the Governor may write to Governor Paterson at the State Capital, Albany, NY 12224, or call his office at 518-474-8390. They should ask for a veto of Senate Bill 6835b establishing a state commission to examine unfair competition in the outdoor recreation industry. To e-mail the governor, they can go the his link on the Partners for Progress website at http://www.supportthecompromise.com. More information on the efforts of the Coalition to Save Belleayre is available on the group’s website at coalitiontosavebelleayre.org.
James - Perfect, thanks.
Have you posted this on other boards with more of an eastern following -- alpinezone, snowjournal, and even epicski (not an eastern focus but traffic)? Also Telemarkeast.com and telemarktips.com.
If not I'd like to post a link to this thread on alpinezone, epicski, and telemarktips.com, if that's OK by you and firsttracks admin.
Albany is crazier than usual these days so for this to get any attention I'd like to see as many ski geeks as possible email the gov through the Partners for Progress website.
Have you posted this on other boards with more of an eastern following -- alpinezone, snowjournal, and even epicski (not an eastern focus but traffic)? Also Telemarkeast.com and telemarktips.com.
If not I'd like to post a link to this thread on alpinezone, epicski, and telemarktips.com, if that's OK by you and firsttracks admin.
Albany is crazier than usual these days so for this to get any attention I'd like to see as many ski geeks as possible email the gov through the Partners for Progress website.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Snowjournal already has a good thread about the feud:
http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic13707
http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic13707
A thorough synopsis of the current situation, published today:
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/module ... e&sid=4610
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/module ... e&sid=4610
The development plans presumably add to the overall economic picture and enhance the Catskills as a vacation destination.
If the state run area is selling tickets at a loss at prices the private areas can't afford, that part is a more legitimate complaint IMHO.
If the state run area is selling tickets at a loss at prices the private areas can't afford, that part is a more legitimate complaint IMHO.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Nice piece from Admin. I wish I could claim to be an expert on this, but I have more questions than answers.
All three ski areas operate at more or less maximum capacity weekends and holidays, unless conditions are really unfavorable. All three ski areas have tons of capacity on non-holiday weekdays. Thus, it would seem logical for all three to work together to bring people up there when they're empty (just like any other ski area pretty much anywhere). Why is this not happening?
I've skied at Belleayre since 2000, and during that time, it has always offered discounted lift tickets one Friday per month ($15 skier appreciation days). It's also always had one Mon-Fri period toward the end of January when day tickets were $10 (winter festival). It's also given free tickets to people on their birthday. Other than that, Belleayre offers discounts just like any other ski area (college students, military, frequent skier, etc). Why have these discounted tickets, most of which fall on dead weekdays, suddenly become a hardship to the Greene County areas, when up until about a year ago they weren't an issue?
If Hunter and Windham are publicizing Belleayre's financial numbers to demonstrate that they are operating at an unfair advantage, shouldn't we expect for them to open their P/L statements so everyone can see how they're adversely affected? Will we be able to see the profits/losses from their real estate ventures?
I can't speak for Hunter, but when I interviewed the marketing director at Windham, he explicitly said that Windham doesn't view Hunter or Belleayre as its competition, but rather the southern VT resorts (Stratton, Mount Snow). Why have Belleayre's 175,000 ski days become such a threat to Windham? Are they really taking away people from Windham's core audience -- downstaters who will pay extra for amenities and would otherwise drive north to Stratton or Mount Snow? Are these same people -- the ones who like Windham's high-speed lifts, better food, and on-mountain accommodations -- now interested in Belleayre's retro, no-frills experience?
I'm going to cross-post something from Manhattan Skier in the Snowjournal thread I linked above. It seems to confirm the perception I noted in my article -- that Belleayre certainly doesn't have better terrain, lifts, food, or lodges, but that it's seen as running a tighter ship:
The one area that I'm still unclear about is the DEC's role in allowing ski area development, and it seems to change depending on whom you ask. Belleayre's expansion was, after years and years of review, given a green light... is the DEC, in fact, preventing Hunter from expanding its terrain? Can someone help me with this?
All three ski areas operate at more or less maximum capacity weekends and holidays, unless conditions are really unfavorable. All three ski areas have tons of capacity on non-holiday weekdays. Thus, it would seem logical for all three to work together to bring people up there when they're empty (just like any other ski area pretty much anywhere). Why is this not happening?
I've skied at Belleayre since 2000, and during that time, it has always offered discounted lift tickets one Friday per month ($15 skier appreciation days). It's also always had one Mon-Fri period toward the end of January when day tickets were $10 (winter festival). It's also given free tickets to people on their birthday. Other than that, Belleayre offers discounts just like any other ski area (college students, military, frequent skier, etc). Why have these discounted tickets, most of which fall on dead weekdays, suddenly become a hardship to the Greene County areas, when up until about a year ago they weren't an issue?
If Hunter and Windham are publicizing Belleayre's financial numbers to demonstrate that they are operating at an unfair advantage, shouldn't we expect for them to open their P/L statements so everyone can see how they're adversely affected? Will we be able to see the profits/losses from their real estate ventures?
I can't speak for Hunter, but when I interviewed the marketing director at Windham, he explicitly said that Windham doesn't view Hunter or Belleayre as its competition, but rather the southern VT resorts (Stratton, Mount Snow). Why have Belleayre's 175,000 ski days become such a threat to Windham? Are they really taking away people from Windham's core audience -- downstaters who will pay extra for amenities and would otherwise drive north to Stratton or Mount Snow? Are these same people -- the ones who like Windham's high-speed lifts, better food, and on-mountain accommodations -- now interested in Belleayre's retro, no-frills experience?
I'm going to cross-post something from Manhattan Skier in the Snowjournal thread I linked above. It seems to confirm the perception I noted in my article -- that Belleayre certainly doesn't have better terrain, lifts, food, or lodges, but that it's seen as running a tighter ship:
The one area that I'm still unclear about is the DEC's role in allowing ski area development, and it seems to change depending on whom you ask. Belleayre's expansion was, after years and years of review, given a green light... is the DEC, in fact, preventing Hunter from expanding its terrain? Can someone help me with this?
EMSC
Well-known member
NYS being in the ski business has always been a bit controversial. Though usually at a much duller roar than this effort would seem to be.
The big complaint timing should be obvious in that Belleayre is increasing visits at the same time as the others are losing visits. If all were losing visits it would simply be 'Oh the economy'. Execs in any business always look outside first for someone/thing to blame instead of doing the required introspection on their own plans. It doesn't help appearances that the state started bringing all the NYS areas into the 21st century with big spending on upgrades over the last decade.
I've actually skied Highmount when it was open. (nothing thrilling, not horrendous, and rather small - even for NYS). I don't recall a big issue being raised from the owners about Belleayre being next door and actually a mile earlier on the access road for that matter. Of course, at that time Belleayre was very antiquated (doubles and surface lifts, low % of terrain with snowmaking, etc...)
I guess they are trying to force an increase in ticket prices/passes via politicians?
Highly unlikely the state will ever stop running the resort (close it) given the very rural location with few economic prospects coupled with the desperate need for politicians to buy votes and favors in that state. I believe that Belleayre is also part of NYS 'forever wild' lands so selling would require 2 consecutive legislatures to vote and then followed by a supermajority vote of/by NYS residents (aka it would take a change to the NYS constitution). I know this is true for Gore & WF. They have max trail width and total trail miles, etc... actually written into the NYS constitution and I recall this is true for Belleayre too.
A curiosity in a way.
As to the DEC; it has a conflict of interest in that it essentially Owns (manages) Belleayre and has a role of overseeing/approving any applications/permits for it's competition (since they are within the Catskills park boundary). I have no idea if Hunter is trying to expand, but I know Windham has been trying to add more intermediate terrain for a number of years... No idea if there have been complaints about DEC behavior though, or if with in DEC it's different sub-groups involved.
The big complaint timing should be obvious in that Belleayre is increasing visits at the same time as the others are losing visits. If all were losing visits it would simply be 'Oh the economy'. Execs in any business always look outside first for someone/thing to blame instead of doing the required introspection on their own plans. It doesn't help appearances that the state started bringing all the NYS areas into the 21st century with big spending on upgrades over the last decade.
I've actually skied Highmount when it was open. (nothing thrilling, not horrendous, and rather small - even for NYS). I don't recall a big issue being raised from the owners about Belleayre being next door and actually a mile earlier on the access road for that matter. Of course, at that time Belleayre was very antiquated (doubles and surface lifts, low % of terrain with snowmaking, etc...)
I guess they are trying to force an increase in ticket prices/passes via politicians?
Highly unlikely the state will ever stop running the resort (close it) given the very rural location with few economic prospects coupled with the desperate need for politicians to buy votes and favors in that state. I believe that Belleayre is also part of NYS 'forever wild' lands so selling would require 2 consecutive legislatures to vote and then followed by a supermajority vote of/by NYS residents (aka it would take a change to the NYS constitution). I know this is true for Gore & WF. They have max trail width and total trail miles, etc... actually written into the NYS constitution and I recall this is true for Belleayre too.
A curiosity in a way.
As to the DEC; it has a conflict of interest in that it essentially Owns (manages) Belleayre and has a role of overseeing/approving any applications/permits for it's competition (since they are within the Catskills park boundary). I have no idea if Hunter is trying to expand, but I know Windham has been trying to add more intermediate terrain for a number of years... No idea if there have been complaints about DEC behavior though, or if with in DEC it's different sub-groups involved.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
EMSC":31zlk2et said:
I put these pix on TGR, but can't remember if I posted them here -- a series of shots from my second run down the main trail at Highmount on Valentine's Day 2007. Even though it's not much by non-EC standards, annexing and reopening those trails would be a nice addition to Belleayre. They're not "thrilling," but are fun blue runs with good views.
There are two very separate issues in the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center (BMSC) ruckus. One is the expansion of the BMSC slopes and the other is a taxpayer subsidy to a real estate speculation called " Belleayre Resort in Catskill Park." The NYS Comptrollers's Report on the project stated, "The Belleayre Resort project appears to be a speculative venture that may well endanger existing resource uses( BMSC) and end up placing unacceptable burdens on State, City amd local taxpayers." The expansion of the slopes is supported by many groups, but most people oppose the use of NYS tax money to underwrite a developer whose corporate shells are being sued for sexual harrassment and non-payment of bills and who has a track record of failed development schemes. The choice is clear-skiing or scheming.
Save the Mountain, http://www.savethemountain.net, is trying to save Belleayre Mountain Ski Center for skiing.
THINK SNOW!!
Save the Mountain, http://www.savethemountain.net, is trying to save Belleayre Mountain Ski Center for skiing.
THINK SNOW!!