Mt. Waterman and Snowcrest/Kratka Ridge

[Admin]

Say, Tony (or anyone else who knows),

What became of Mt. Waterman and Kratka Ridge/Snowcrest in the San Bernadino Mountains north of L.A.? I was working on some stuff last night and discovered that the websites for both are dead. Are they still in operation, or have they become Lost Ski Areas?

[Tony Crocker]

Kratka Ridge and Snowcrest are two different names for the same area. Its single chairlift was the last in the U.S. besides Mad River Glen. The single served 700 vertical of mostly ungroomed terrain averaging advanced intermediate pitch. There was a beginner area of rope tows which got a fixed quad in the early 1990's, maybe 200 vertical.

The single chair was damaged by avalanche during the famous 7-foot storm of Feb. 11-13, 2001 that I recently referenced at Baldy. Then the base lodge burned down in December 2001. Sometime in this same general time frame Kratka and nearby Mt. Waterman were purchased by a corporation called Angeles Crest Resorts.

Neither Kratka nor Waterman has been open the past 3 seasons. As neither has snowmaking I could ascribe 2002 and 2003 to weather. But last year we did have that short but sweet 2-3 weeks in late February/early March. Late in the year I nosed around and got the following info from Waterman:

Feb 25th '04
Good Morning Faithful Mt Waterman Riders and Skiers,

The Great NEWS:
From reliable sources I've heard that there is at least 3 FEET of fresh
powder on top. The storm today is expected to leave us from 18" to 30"
tonight and 12" to 18" tomorrow.

The Bad news:
No projected opening date for the public as of YET! Management has told us
that they are working hard to get the necessary maintenance and permits
completed in order to open soon...

I will keep you all posted as to any progress as it becomes available to me.
In the meantime, please check this link to keep up with the latest at
Waterman and to find out more information as to what you can do to help
support the Mt Waterman Hill.

http://www.mtwatermanpatrol.org/

Pray for snow and for Permits!!!

Be Safe,
Keith Tatsukawa
Mt Waterman Ski Patrol
Southern Calif. Ski and Snowboard Advisor
ktatsukawa@mednet.ucla.edu

I have no idea why Mt. Waterman needs to renew its permits. Waterman is the type of hill you would bemoan going under. Its lower chair is 900 vertical of steep trees and mogul runs. The upper 2 chairs serve 400 vertical of mostly easy stuff. No snowmaking in SoCal + minimal intermediate terrain is not a recipe for economic success. There is also 1,400 vertical of impressive backcountry trees which end up on the Angeles Crest highway about a mile and 500 vertical below the resort.

The Mt. Waterman patroller believes Kratka is dead. He thinks Angeles Crest Resorts collected insurance on the lodge fire but has made no attempt to rebuild. Kratka is not really viable in this modern era, but it would be a shame to lose Waterman. But as I may have mentioned before, I can look in the mirror on this one. Even though I enjoy it, I last skied Waterman in 1995. We get so few good natural snow days here, and I have gone to the much larger Mt. Baldy for all of them in the past decade.

For more historical details about SoCal ski areas, check out:
http://www.pacificrimalliance.org/F.Pub ... SoCal.html

Green Valley and Snow Forest existed when I started skiing but I never visited either. Kratka is the only defunct area I have skied. Am I in rare company having skied the single chairs at both Kratka and MRG?

[Tony Crocker]

Kratka and Waterman are in the San Gabriel Mountains, along with Mt. Baldy. The San Gabriels get at least twice as much natural snow as Big Bear but do not have a lake as snowmaking source. Mountain High is on the backside of the San Gabriels with in-between snowfall and snowmaking from wells.

The San Bernardino Mountains consist of two East-to-West ridgelines. The northern one is 8,000 - 9,000 ft. in elevation and contains Snow Valley, Snow Summit and Bear Mt., with the latter two overlooking Big Bear Lake.

The southern ridge is 10,000 - 11,000 in elevation and captures most precipitation before it can reach Big Bear. It is entirely in the San Gorgonio Wilderness and and only accessible to very fit backcountry skiers, with trailheads 7-10 miles from the best skiing and no higher than 7,000 ft. I posted a picture of the San Gorgonio backcountry as viewed from Big Bear last year: http://216.250.243.13/discus2/messages/ ... 1073938644

[Admin]

Aah, the value of restoring the archives! Beautiful photos, Tony...I had no idea that mountains the like of San Gorgonio existed so close to L.A.

Yep, you may count yourself fortunate to have skied both single chairs. I've ridden two myself (MRG and Stowe), but the Stowe single and double were both replaced with one high-speed quad during my teen years. The Stowe single had thick wool blankets with a hole for your head to wear as a poncho on cold days, or two or three on very cold days. Lifties would toss them onto the empty chairs to ship them back to the base, and on windy days the trees lining the chair would be filled with wayward blankets.

And thanks for the update on S Cal skiing. Sounds like it's really on the wane around there.

[Tony Crocker]

No, it's not on the wane at all. It's consolidating, as in most regions, with the local twist that the younger generation here is about 80% snowboarders. Therefore the key to appeal to that group is to have state-of-the-art snowmaking and terrain park design. Snow Summit/Bear Mt. probably does about 700,000 visits and Mountain High about 500,000. Even in good snow years like 1998 and 2001 Baldy and Snow Valley are probably well under 100,000 each, and the rest are gone or nearly gone.

When I began skiing in the late 1970's the total skier visits were probably in the same 1+ million range in good years, but distributed among more areas. Both Big Bear and Mt. High were 2 separate mountains under separate ownership then. And the hot teenagers and 20-somethings then would prefer to bash moguls at Baldy or Waterman than ski the tamer runs at Big Bear. Big Bear's snow conditions weren't better as often as now due to more primitive snowmaking back then.

As I have mentioned earlier the SoCal demographic change and dominance of snowboarding also cost Mammoth 1/3 of its skier visits between the mid-1980's and the mid-1990's. Mammoth/Intrawest have regained some of that ground by:
1) Building world-class terrain parks, and
2) Offering 25,000 Value Passes (now $425) each April for the following season to entice the younger more cost-conscious generation.

[Admin]

and the rest are gone or nearly gone.

That, IMO, is the shame of it.

[Patrick]

Kratka Ridge and Snowcrest are two different names for the same area. Its single chairlift was the last in the U.S. besides Mad River Glen.

I thought that a single chair from Sun Valley was still in operation in somewhere in Alaska?

Aah, the value of restoring the archives!
(...)
Yep, you may count yourself fortunate to have skied both single chairs. I've ridden two myself (MRG and Stowe).

Couldn't agree with you more Marc.

Unfortunate, the Stowe single wasn't running on my first visit at Stowe in December 1984. I was fortunate to ride the two different single chairs at Tremblant and the one at MRG (long live the single).

However, there are still some single chairs still in operation elsewhere on the planet.

[pnoom]

It's great to hear people talking about places like Waterman, and even Kratka or Snow Forest for that matter.

I don't know about you guys, but I am always intrigued by "lost" ski areas. I've been to Waterman and Kratka many many times and they were both great, friendly, and fun places to ride or ski. Kratka could definitely get a little old, with pretty much 5 versions of the same run, but it was still a great little resort (plus it had great food! I remember eating a fantastic, homestyle breakfast one morning there). Waterman was probably my favorite resort in So. Cal when it was blessed with a huge storm. It was NEVER crowded and it was always challanging and never got old. If you got bored with the designated trails, you could slip off to the right side (if you were facing down) and you were treated to some of the best backcountry terrain you could get in So Cal. I remember one powder day at Waterman where my friend and I dropped in to that canyon from the top and had about 1200-1300 vertical of completely untracked powder; one of the best runs I've had in So. Cal. The mile walk back to the base lift was no problem after a run that spectacular

I only wish I had a chance to ride the Buckhorn area, which is somewhere right by Waterman, if I'm not mistaken. It was a "private" ski area with a rope tow, but I was never able to find it or find people that knew where it was. Anybody know where it was, and how I would have got to it from Waterman? Is it off the backside or something?

I never had a chance to ski Snow Forest when it was open, although I've always wanted to hike it on a good day in Big Bear. But, on a good day in Big Bear, I always get tempted by Bear Mt's fantastic off trail, canyon terrain, which never dissappoints, if there is enough snow. I tell ya, that canyon between Bear Peak and Silver Mountain at Bear is classic! If you drop in from the top of Geronimo, it's an absolutely amazing run that reminds me a lot of a classic trail from Brighton, Utah. Also, Bow Canyon, on the other side of Geronimo/Bear Peak is very nice as well; I just hate ending up on that way-too-flat beginner run right below it.

Also, I always wanted to check out Ski Green Valley, in Running Springs, but at 50 or 60 acres, it couldn't have been that great. Anybody been there? The last I heard of that place was that some Church from Orange County bought it and was running it to support their church. I wonder how that went. Whoever mentioned it was too right; without snowmaking, you can't really expect to run a viable ski area in So. Cal. That is unless, someone buys the San Gorgonio wilderness and builds a few lifts above the 8.000 ft level. I always see snow on San Gorgonio.

Anyways, at least we still have Mt. Baldy to sustain our love of underappreciated So. Cal skiing/riding. I always tell people that Baldy on a good can compete with some of the smaller Utah resorts in a second. It's amazing how many people still don't know that Baldy has the steepest runs and the most acreage of any resort south of Mammoth. But, I'd prefer to keep it that way. When are they gonna develop the backside of Baldy, "Stockton Flats". They've been saying that for years now, I wonder if it will ever happen. If it does, though, they really need a reliable and decent snowmaking system or it would never work. Wouldn't it be great, though, to see downtown L.A. in the distance while you are skiing/riding? Of course, that would be on a VERY clear day, but it's still a nice thought.

-K.C.

[Admin]

Also, I always wanted to check out Ski Green Valley, in Running Springs, but at 50 or 60 acres, it couldn't have been that great. Anybody been there? The last I heard of that place was that some Church from Orange County bought it and was running it to support their church.

AFAIK that failed.

Welcome, pnoom -- Tony will be happy to see another So. Californian around here. Spread the word and drag some of your compadres on in. We hope that you contribute often.

[Tony Crocker]

I can answer/comment on these questions:

Buckhorn is between Waterman and Kratka. The rope tow has not been operative for some time, but people still go there for snow play. It is the first place I put my son Adam on plastic skis when he was 2 years old in March 1987. I would put him on a gentle incline and he would just ski straight for 20-30 feet until the spring snow stopped him naturally. My wife filmed this with a video camera and there is an amusing scene where you see my feet fly up into the right side of the screen. I was walking backward in front of him and tripped over a bump.

I have been in the Bear Mountain canyons exactly once in March 1993. Both canyons drain to the bottom of the mountain and require 2 lifts (one slow and congested back then, now high speed) to return to Bear Peak. I don't ski there much because if the snow is that good, Baldy (and Waterman) will be much better. Adam was 8 that season and handled the canyons easily.

I stayed in a friend's cabin at Green Valley in 1980 and 1982. GV was very small, only 300 vertical and I was not really tempted to ski there. I think it gets a fair amount of natural snow like Snow Valley, but obviously can't compete with it or Big Bear. In the late 1980's Green Valley tried to carve out a niche by renaming itself "Big Air Green Valley" and only allowing snowboarders when ski areas still restricted them. When Snow Summit aimed its marketing/snowmaking expertise at designing terrain parks, Green Valley died quickly. I think the "Big Air" era might have preceded the church group, but I'm not sure.

San Gorgonio is a pet peeve of mine. As I've mentioned before, I skied it in late spring of the 1980 through 1983 seasons. Terrain wise, it's like having another Mammoth within 2 hours day commute distance of everyone between Ventura and San Diego, actually closer than Big Bear. It was one of the first parcels locked up when the Wilderness Act was passed in 1964. As I understand it, the Sierra Club's argument to the then rapidly growing ski industry was, "We'll favor developing Mineral King if we preserve San Gorgonio." Needless to say that's not what happened when Disney proposed Mineral King in 1978. If there was a choice made in 1964, it was the wrong one IMHO. Mineral King required way more road and infrastructure development and would have been just another Sierra resort 1-2 hours from the Central Valley and weekend distance from the metro areas. To add insult to injury, the Poopout Hill trailhead I used to ski San Gorgonio in 1980-83 was deemed to be too close to the wilderness boundary and closed down in the mid 1980's. The north side hike in would now be in excess of 10 miles and 4,000 vertical.

As a day area, San Gorgonio would be spectacular. It wouldn't be that good in drought years, but it would be loaded with snow in those wet seasons like 1980, 1986 and 1997 when the existing SoCal areas 2,500 feet lower got rained out. Perhaps if the electoral trends of last Tuesday continue, we could get the Wilderness Act repealed and San Gorgonio developed. But I suspect many of us would not be comfortable with other environmental effects of that trend.

I have discussed the Baldy expansion proposals with their reps at the L.A. Ski Show almost every year. Stockton Flats is not the big open face you see from downtown L.A. It is the area facing directly north from the top of chair 4 and dropping 2000 vertical into Lytle Creek. Part of the proposal involves paving the existing Lytle Creek Road to provide an easier alternate access road than the 2 miles of hairpins above Mt. Baldy Village. This would also involve a new base lodge and beginner area. I did get to ski back there 5/31/98 with a truck shuttle back to the Notch: http://www.skisocal.org/cgi/ski.pl/detail/354;97-98 .

In recent years Baldy has had to jump through some hoops with the Forest Service. First to upgrade the lifts, then for a snowmaking reservior and finally to renew permits, including for Stockton Flats. Now that they have settled permits for something like 20 years, they are looking for an equity investor/benefactor of SoCal skiing. Given the snowfall history of Baldy, we can all understand that it would be suicidal for them to use debt to finance new lifts or other significant capital improvements.

Given the nature of Baldy's terrain, I do not believe it is practical to expect snowmaking to have much of an impact there. Nonetheless I have heard they have some water rights to Baldy's main San Antonio Falls drainage. They would have to run a pipe 2 miles from there to the ski area, and also wait for drought restrictions to lift because that is also the source of water for Mt. Baldy Village.

[Tony Crocker]

FYI, I saw this angry blog on Southland Ski server today:

E-mail: all4thx@yahoo.com

Details:

Mt. Waterman is NOT going to open again. This hill and its neighbor Kratka
Ridge join the ranks of no longer in existence (extinct) ski areas.

Don't buy into the we need permits and inspections. They need cash to open
which they've got none. The place has turned into a private resort for the
"ski patrol" who abuse their priviledge and access.

If management were serious they'd of ponied up the cash already as Southern
California is having a RECORD ski season. Come on, if they can't open in
RECORD (yes, I said R-E-C-O-R-D) snow year then you know they won't ever open
again. Why wait... the cash only rolls in the front door when you start up the
lift. Any idiot would know that.

Frankly, Angeles Crest Resorts is cash strapped, has no phone number and is
NO-MORE.

I agree with the logic in general. The current natural snowbase might not keep the steep face runs open, but they would have been good for a few days after each storm. The easier chairs up top should still have good coverage now.

[pnoom]

Yeah, I saw that report too.

Wow, ACR must have pissed him off good.

Even though what he says is likely, I don't want to believe it. I'd rather believe that they are trying hard to get their permits and will have the mountain open after the next big storm.

It would be a great loss to have Waterman close forever. It may have it's share of problems, but it is still a great place ski/ride.

I hope to be riding up one of their old chair lifts one day soon.

[tattooco]

Well, it's been dumping silly for two weeks now, and I tried all the phone numbers for Waterman & Kratka, and nothing. My search online also ended up here, so this seems to be the only place with any pertinent info on either lifts.

What a shame. I loved Waterman! The food was the best resort food I've had anywhere (including Aspen, Snowmass - where you figure all the hoity toity folks would vie for outstanding food). There were never any crowds, even on weekends. And the hour and ten minute commute from the west side made it the closest ride to me.

This is sad. If anyone hears of some uplifting *ahem* news, let me know.

Erika Stanley,
Ex-Wateman Regular ca. 1993

[Guest]

Yea it's sad not having Waterman open. So many great days there. I was up there in 83? the day the Sepulveda Basin flooded and they where air lifting people out of the flooded basin. It was going off with your tracks filled each lap. It was fun skiing down Avalance and hitching back up. Sometimes when it was busy Lynn would run a bus down there. I remember during the "March Miracle" year in late April he would run the bottom lift on the weekend for 20 bucks. We rallyed our friends and had the place practicly to our selves BBQ, and margaritas sitting on Hwy 2. Still got my rare "Ski on Top" Mt Waterman hat.

Tim
Telemarktips.com

[Big Tim]

Thought I was logged in on the above post............. Rookie




RIP old friend