Young Males Keep Falling From Chairlifts Out West

jamesdeluxe said:

The stat for the Northeast is low. It's more like 90-95%

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Pretty sure the article mentions that that is limited but real data taken at ski resorts by observers. Perhaps they visited 'low compliance' areas vs typical eastern areas, but difficult to argue too hard against data collected on site.

jamesdeluxe said:

not using the safety bar is only partly about westerners' physical discomfort with using them

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Interestingly, I'm far LESS likely to use a bar if it has those new but horrific bar between every persons legs arrangement than the much more comfortable and usable bars of old. If the chair is not full on lifts with the horrible bars, I explicitly make sure to sit so that one of those things cannot come down between my legs (eg offset from 'normal' seat location).

EMSC said:

I'm far LESS likely to use a bar if it has those new but horrific bar between every persons legs arrangement than the much more comfortable and usable bars of old. If the chair is not full on lifts with the horrible bars, I explicitly make sure to sit so that one of those things cannot come down between my legs (eg offset from 'normal' seat location).

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I hate HATE those things -- talk about nanny state. Since the Alps ski areas are 10-20 years ahead of the U.S. in lift technology, there are more of them over there. That said; they're mainly found at the industrial resorts on chairs servicing the most well-trodden (family friendly) terrain.

EMSC said:

Interestingly, I'm far LESS likely to use a bar if it has those new but horrific bar between every persons legs arrangement than the much more comfortable and usable bars of old. If the chair is not full on lifts with the horrible bars, I explicitly make sure to sit so that one of those things cannot come down between my legs (eg offset from 'normal' seat location).

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I don’t know what skier population Dopplemeyer and Leitner/Poma tested this complete safety bar and footrest redesign upon, but I think ZERO - because it's not very good, downright awful. It was product managers and planners running amok without any outside input.

And when the bar comes down and locks in place - WTF! It does not open until you are physically within the unloading terminal! How are you going to evacuate a lift due to a power failure or something?

When the Big Sky HS 6-pack - bowl (PowderSeeker), and a couple of Zermatt lifts locked everyone in, when other skiers and boarders had their skis/boards in really awkward positions, it was hell.

Sure, it stops children from falling out, but it can create a lot more problems with 80% of the riders.

ChrisC said:

it stops children from falling out

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I'm sure that's the rationale, but like everyone here I think that design sucks. And if they have footrests they are tiny, just a couple of inches either side of a center bar.

The Mammoth retrofit on chair 23 also has the bar between the legs, as do the brand new Doppelmyer 6-pack upgrades to chairs 1 and 16. Those 1 and 16 chairs have indoor moving loading ramps which evidently befuddle some skiers who haven't skied in the Alps where they are ubiquitous.

ChrisC said:

I don’t know what skier population Dopplemeyer and Leitner/Poma tested this complete safety bar and footrest redesign upon, but I think ZERO - because it's not very good, downright awful. It was product managers and planners running amok without any outside input.

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We agree -- so user unfriendly that it's easy to assume no focus group tests were performed with actual skiers/riders; however, is that remotely possible given how much money, time, and effort is involved in designing and installing a new chairlift model?

Tony Crocker said:

Mammoth has retrofit safety bars on most of its older fixed grip chairs over the past decade. The sole exception is chair 25, a triple where I've read that an added bar would make the lift too heavy. Given its height off the ground there were lots of comments when chair 23 did not have a bar.

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Telluride retrofitted a 1980s Chair 9 Triple with safety bars and later footrests in the 2000s. Due to the additional weight, chairlifts had to be removed, resulting in a degraded capacity from the theoretical triple chair of 1,800 skiers per hour to a double chair capacity of 1,200 skiers per hour.

I don't think most resorts are willing to do something like this. Frankly, I do not know how you retrofit Riblet center pole lifts. Stowe's old Bir Spruce/Spruce Peak double was a center pole chair with safety bars that rotated horizontally to close. Strange. I think MRG's single chair does this as well.

What's interesting to me are some changing attitudes towards lift infrastructure:

• Brits tend to dismiss any lift or resort that is not high-speed.
• Germans will rank S3 Super Gondolas on speed and smoothness
• Millennials-to-Gen Zers (PeakRankings writers) seemed shocked when a Western US Resort lift did not have a safety restraint, which decreases their score.

Many expectations around restraints on modern lifts.

And I expect it too on major lifts. However, I do not mind no-bar lifts that serve shorter terrain, such as Alpental's top lift, Crystal's High Campbell, 7th Heaven at Stevens, and some lifts at Squaw, etc.

I also wear a pack (small avy day pack/20+L's) that pushes me forward, so I will put down bars on HS lifts - especially if there is a sudden stop.

ChrisC said:

Due to the additional weight, chairlifts had to be removed,

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Definitely not true for Mammoth's chair 23. But chair 23 when built in 1982 was overengineered with extra thick towers because it crosses a big time avalanche zone.

ChrisC said:

I also wear a pack (small avy day pack/20+L's) that pushes me forward, so I will put down bars on HS lifts - especially if there is a sudden stop.

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Yes, some of the high speed lifts like the new ones on 1 and 16 a high enough back that I can't get my small daypack over it. My general rule of thumb is to nearly always use the bar if there is a real footrest, and with the exception of chair 23 not necessarily to use with no footrest unless there is a high backrest issue. But I know to "go with the flow" in the Alps or if other riders want the bar down. I always warn other riders when I'm the one lowering the bar, and I use the phrase "footrest" to minimize offending western US ski culture. I think the "bro-brahs" are willing to give a geezer a pass on that point.

ChrisC said:

I also wear a pack (small avy day pack/20+L's) that pushes me forward, so I will put down bars on HS lifts - especially if there is a sudden stop.

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I was kinda surprised that in Euro-land there is exactly zero attempt to remove packs or hold them any differently on lifts. 100% just get on the lift and go with pack fully attached to you.

If the Euros don't regulate lift lines why would they regulate what you're wearing on the lift?

Tony Crocker said:

If the Euros don't regulate lift lines why would they regulate what you're wearing on the lift?

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Touche, But then why do they bother regulating comfort bar usage?

One can easily argue that packs getting caught are similar risk profile as comfort bar usage (for injuries especially).

EMSC said:

comfort bar

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If you're trying to annoy us by using that term (twice in one post), congratulations. Mission accomplished.

jamesdeluxe said:

If you're trying to annoy us by using that term

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In the US at least that is the term that the industry tries to use as much as possible. From a legal standpoint if you start to call it a safety bar and it doesn't prevent every last incident and injury then your lift manufacturer and ski resort lawyers are screwed - even in a clear case of user error. The fact that the 'comfort bar' also happens to help restrain you on the lift for most of the ride is merely coincidental

Here's a recent Ski Magazine editorial about this topic; however, the question that it asks twice (in the headline and subhead pasted below) is purely rhetorical. Good thing that we address it in this thread -- maybe I should forward a link to show her how it's done?

What started as an economic necessity is now a social badge of masculinity. The Pronouns are: Bro, Frat, Dude. Very few: They/them.

I recall many single-pole lifts in the west, as well as doubles without a bar.

The only thing that will change it: Doppelmayr automatic bar locking high-speed lifts on the best, most iconic lifts of the West:

• KT22 @ Squaw
• Headwall @ Squaw
• Collins @ Alta
• Supreme @ Alta
• Little Cloud @ Snowbird
• Mineral Basin @ Snowbird
• Sublette @ Jackson
• Thunder @ Jackson
• a few in Colorado to piss people off
• a few that serve the best snow parks

When you lock the best down in a safety bar, the rest will do it.

Really: the West was poor and could not afford safety bars in the 1960s/70s.

And the incidents multiply for this season. No hint of any wrongdoing by Vail Inc. Probably goofing around with no bar down or etc... though hard to say with such limited info.

More ammunition for Stuart. It’s hard to argue against using the bars but many people just don’t think about it in western resorts, as I still noticed at Mammoth today.

Tony Crocker said:

More ammunition for Stuart.

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To repeat my rant upthread, I'm still convinced that it's some (apolitical, non-gender-specific) regional libertarianism that'll never change -- and education or scolding will only make it worse, like a teenager disobeying his parents.

"You must be from the East."

I’m convinced it will take a formal law like Vermont. Bar use is very low out here, way under 50% with no footrest and not much more than that with a footrest. For most of us it’s habit and indifference, and if there’s a formal rule I’d expect 90% compliance.