Big Cottonwood Recommendations

[jkamien]

Maybe this is a beaten horse, but I am lazy and lacking time.

I have planned a little 50th birthday trip for myself. :-D I am training seriously and will be in very good shape by the time this trip rolls around. I like powder and challenging terrain, but I've been to AltaBird many times and want to try other parts of Utah. I'm doing this cheaply, except for the skiing itself, because I booked my flight and lodging entirely with points/rewards/miles.

I will be arriving in SLC at 10:19AM, Tuesday, Jan 19, for 5 nights, 6 days of skiing. Here's the plan:

Tuesday afternoon: Free skiing via START with my boarding pass at either The Canyons Resort, Park City Mountain Resort or Deer Valley Resort. WHICH ONE DO I CHOOSE?

Wednesday: Ski another BCC area. WHICH ONE?

Thursday: Utah Interconnect. After skiing, change lodging from PC to Ogden.

Friday: Ski Powder Mountain, with a few cat rides at $12/each if in-bounds is tracked out.

Saturday: Ski Pow Mow. Maybe do the $175 ticket for 1 heli+lift ticket. Maybe do the 6 run heli day if it hasn't snowed for a while and seems worth it.

Sunday: Snow Basin. Leave mountain by 2PM to catch 4:40PM flight home.

If you are familiar with these areas and care to suggest a run/lift itinerary to help me maximize my time at each, I would be psyched!

 

[Marc_C]

Tuesday afternoon: Free skiing via START with my boarding pass at either The Canyons Resort, Park City Mountain Resort or Deer Valley Resort. WHICH ONE DO I CHOOSE?

Decide at the last minute when you'll have a far better idea of conditions. All have worthwhile, interesting terrain. If you've never experienced Deer Valley, doing so for free, even if only a half day, is certainly worth considering.

Wednesday: Ski another BCC area. WHICH ONE?

"Another" BCC area? Or did you mean Park City area? If BCC, our preference is for Solitude, but try to get one of us locals to show you around, as Solitude is harder to figure out than Alta and it's secrets are more concealed.

Thursday: Utah Interconnect. After skiing, change lodging from PC to Ogden.

Make sure you're sufficiently caffinated for the drive! The interconnect is a huge, energetic day.

Friday: Ski Powder Mountain, with a few cat rides at $12/each if in-bounds is tracked out.

Saturday: Ski Pow Mow. Maybe do the $175 ticket for 1 heli+lift ticket. Maybe do the 6 run heli day if it hasn't snowed for a while and seems worth it.

Again, let conditions at the time dictate your plans.

Sunday: Snow Basin. Leave mountain by 2PM to catch 4:40PM flight home.

If you are familiar with these areas and care to suggest a run/lift itinerary to help me maximize my time at each, I would be psyched!

Bobby D is our local Snow Basin expert. He and Admin are your best bets for Powder Mtn. beta.

 

[Admin]

He and Admin are your best bets for Powder Mtn. beta.

Study a topo. Intently. Start now. :lol:

 

[rsmith]

That is a great trip you have planned... The inter-connect is a unique experience and a lot of fun. You'll definitely enjoy the variety of mountains that makes Utah what it is.

For your QUICKSTART day I would suggest going to Deer Valley. IMO the 3 Park City resorts offer nothing special in terms of terrain, scenery or snow - the only thing that separates them from the pack is Main Street, the Deer Valley restaurants and the ability to log high mileage on the DV groomed runs. Plus, DV is the most expensive resort of the 3 so you're getting the most bang for your free pass. So, my suggestion would be to have one day dedicated to groomed runs and great food at DV (with some Daly Chutes and Triangle Trees runs thrown in).

I would suggest hiring a guide at Powder Mountain on your non-heli day - it's well worth it. Our guide took us to shots we would have never found on our own (btw she went on the cat with us). The bus runs are a must.

I prefer Solitude over Brighton in BCC. The terrain is a little more steep and challenging and Honeycomb Canyon can hold untracked snow for a week after a storm.

Sundance ski resort is also an option if you're looking for change of pace and to see somewhere new (with scenery that is amongst the best in Utah). Assuming the snow is good, there is some fun (but limited) skiing on the upper mountain (Bishop's bowl and the gully's beneath it). The resort itself is very cozy and quiet with a fun bar and a couple good restaurants.

The one catch is that even though Utah is as consistent as it gets for powder, it's certainly not a guarantee. Last year over Sundance (the same time of year you'll be going) it rained on us every day at the lower elevations of Park City and Snowbasin (greatest rain on earth!!!) and the snow was extremely heavy even at the higher elevations of Solitude/Snowbird. Thus, you'll need to keep an open mind and have alternate options if the snow is not cooperating. In poor snow conditions Powder Mountain is basically a non-option since the main draw is the snow. Snowbasin and DV can still be great on the groomed runs and of course your odds are best at higher elevations (LCC, BCC).

 

[Admin]

Agree with rsmith on all counts, other than his DV recommendation. If I had only one day in the PC area I'm partial to PCMR out of those three for terrain. Daly Chutes at DV are fun but short. I much prefer Jupiter at PCMR. Then you've got the trees off McConkey's, the trees in and around Motherlode Meadows, the aspen glades of 10th Mountain Ridge, etc. If you could ski at PCMR and dine at DV that would be the best of both worlds!

Having someone show you around Pow Mow is definitely a worthy piece of advice. However, if you fully understand the convoluted layout (hence my comments above regarding a topo were only partially tongue-in-cheek), have a good sense of smell, and spend ample time looking around while riding lifts you can generally figure out some of the stashes. With the exception of Blue Bell, what I learned at Pow Mow I learned on my own by sniffing around and not from Bobby.

 

[Admin]

Sundance ski resort is also an option if you're looking for change of pace and to see somewhere new (with scenery that is amongst the best in Utah). Assuming the snow is good, there is some fun (but limited) skiing on the upper mountain (Bishop's bowl and the gully's beneath it). The resort itself is very cozy and quiet with a fun bar and a couple good restaurants.

Sundance is a fun hill for a day. It tends to do very well on storms with a southwesterly flow, but as rsmith pointed out it's got the lowest base elevation of any major ski area in the state. Likewise at Snowbasin, keep in mind that the tops of its lifts are barely higher than the base of Alta. The rain event you were here for last January is somewhat rare for that time of year, but the snow levels can occasionally be surprisingly high. That's why it's important that your plan be dynamic, something that our tight concentration of many different ski areas easily accommodates.

Interesting side note about the bar at Sundance: it was moved by Redford to the resort from a saloon in Thermopolis, Wyoming that Butch & Sundance used to frequent. In fact, for those who know little more about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid than the movie, Utah was pretty much the Hole in The Wall Gang's operating territory. Common wisdom holds that the real Butch Cassidy was a Mormon from Beaver, Utah, and Robber's Roost and other frequent hideouts are in east-central and northeastern Utah. Their first job was robbing the coal mining company in Price, Utah, about 90 minutes from SLC.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Decide at the last minute when you'll have a far better idea of conditions.

The best piece of advice. Particularly if powder is a high part of your priority. Individual storms can vary from the long term average of LCC > BCC >> Snowbasin/Powder Mt > Park City group.

Free skiing via START with my boarding pass at either The Canyons Resort, Park City Mountain Resort or Deer Valley Resort. WHICH ONE DO I CHOOSE?

If you have never been to any of them, Jupiter Bowl at Park City is a cut above anything at DV or Canyons in terms of terrain (slightly) and snow (usually a lot). But the Deer Valley experience (particularly lunch) is certainly worthwhile.

If BCC, our preference is for Solitude ... Solitude is harder to figure out than Alta and it's secrets are more concealed.

I disagree. Solitude's lack of crowds make it much easier for a non-local on a powder day. There's great value in skiing with someone like admin on an Alta powder day because he knows:
1) The usual sequence for opening terrain (complex at Alta, just Honeycomb is a big issue at Solitude).
2) The traffic patterns of the local powderhounds; which sectors will have less competition.

When I finally got a powder day at Solitude (I had 3.5 non-powder days there since 1989) President's Day 2007 it was not difficult to get fresh tracks every run. I analyzed the day afterwards with admin, and I had only missed one stash that he would have done.

Bobby D is our local Snow Basin expert. He and Admin are your best bets for Powder Mtn. beta.

Snowbasin vs. Powder Mt. is a classic example of letting current conditions dictate. Snowbasin has much better fall lines and a lift system that can let you rack up huge vertical. And if it's first day powder, we've seen enough testimonials from BobbyD and admin as to quality and lack of competition vs. LCC. Powder Mt.'s claim to fame is that the powder is still there 2-? days later. With varied exposure the sun or wind will get at it eventually even if skier traffic doesn't. But your January timing gives you the best odds there.

In bounds at Powder Mt. I'd have the same comments about finding your way around as at Solitude. But local guidance is more important for the bus runs, cat runs and sidecountry, which in total are nearly half the acreage.

 

[Admin]

If BCC, our preference is for Solitude ... Solitude is harder to figure out than Alta and it's secrets are more concealed.

I disagree. Solitude's lack of crowds make it much easier for a non-local on a powder day. There's great value in skiing with someone like admin on an Alta powder day because he knows:
1) The usual sequence for opening terrain (complex at Alta, just Honeycomb is a big issue at Solitude).
2) The traffic patterns of the local powderhounds; which sectors will have less competition.

When I finally got a powder day at Solitude (I had 3.5 non-powder days there since 1989) President's Day 2007 it was not difficult to get fresh tracks every run. I analyzed the day afterwards with admin, and I had only missed one stash that he would have done.

Maybe I was just being kind, and didn't want to let you think that you missed anything? :wink:

Solitude's topography is as convoluted as it gets. Unless you're really, really good at figuring things out on your own you'll miss a ton of the good stuff and guess the exposure wrong on multiple occasions. I skied right past one critical gate many, many times before I even realized that it was there, due to both the layout of the hill and where they had the gate positioned. Until I actually went through that particular gate it had never dawned on me just where it would lead, so I was quite surprised to find myself where I was...and this is coming from someone who sorta prides himself at figuring these things out on his own.

 

[Tony Crocker]

guess the exposure wrong

That was the omission we discussed. In the snow/overcast I couldn't see the sun and assumed incorrectly that the skier's right traverse into Honeycomb would lead to south exposure. I never said I skied everythere there. But when I'm skiing fresh every run with decent enough fall lines, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. And I think that's somewhat unusual for a first-time-at-an-area powder day. I know that with a similar level of experience at Alta I would not have done as well unguided.

 

[Marc_C]

... I skied right past one critical gate many, many times before I even realized that it was there, due to both the layout of the hill and where they had the gate positioned. Until I actually went through that particular gate it had never dawned on me just where it would lead, so I was quite surprised to find myself where I was...

And there's this other gate that I've been through numerous times - and I still manage to cliff out about 33% of the time I go through it! Then there's the infamous false traverse - always tracked, and, if you don't know the critical spot to loose about 25 vert feet onto the real traverse, you'll spend quite a bit of time negotiating some pretty sketch terrain. Additionally, knowing when not to go through certain gates, even though they'll be open, can save a world of unpleasant skiing. There are the enticing chutes accessed by an obscure hike...but one of them would require a rappel part way down. There are some other powder shots where going through one gate gives you a sweaty bit of side-stepping hiking, but going through a different gate (from a different, non-obvious direction) gets you to the same shot with minimal effort.

This is what we mean by Solitude being harder to figure out than Alta.

 

[Tony Crocker]

This is what we mean by Solitude being harder to figure out than Alta.

The locals are referring to locating terrain. Since Alta is a much more open area I'm sure this is true. For us visitors the powder is the greatest value of a place like Solitude. Since it's available in the straightforward locations, I don't think I'm missing that much. By lunchtime at Alta you often need to be in the more obscure places if you want fresh tracks.

 

[Admin]

And at Solitude those straightforward locations often yield only a few hundred vert as opposed to double that or more if you know where you're going. Those straightforward shots compete with the other visitors, and those straightforward shots as often as not feature inferior terrain to what you can access if you know where you're going. I had a season pass there one winter and it took me most of the winter to figure the place out. Remind me, Tony: how many times have you skied there...say, in the past three decades?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

 

[jkamien]

Fantastic feedback, folks! Thanks.

Dear Valet: I will reserve my fine dining for when I'm in places where there's no skiing - like in Paris and Prague, or even here in Pluckemin, New Jersey, where I've had fantastic meals. I'm coming to Utah to ski, not dine. Also, getting a ton of vertical on groomed runs has no appeal for me. I'd rather hike to and ski one Eddy's High Nowhere or Perla's Chute than ski 10 groomers. I think I will choose PCMR for Day 1 and get a lesson or a mountain class for the afternoon like I've done at Alta on the first day in order to score a guide.

Solitude looks like the consensus for Day 2. So which of you locals wants to join me on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 (my actual 50th birthday)?

 

[Admin]

I think I will choose PCMR for Day 1 and get a lesson or a mountain class for the afternoon like I've done at Alta on the first day in order to score a guide.

Really unnecessary for you at PCMR, and ridiculously pricey there to boot (an all-day private is something ~ $700 IIRC). (I should clarify here that I've known the OP for ~ 15 years.) It's pretty straightforward. Just talk to me beforehand and I'll give you some very explicit tips on where to go if I can't be there myself.

So which of you locals wants to join me on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 (my actual 50th birthday)?

Entirely possible, but you want a commitment now? :shock: Talk to me the weekend prior. :wink:

 

[Marc_C]

Dear Valet: I will reserve my fine dining for when I'm in places where there's no skiing - like in Paris and Prague, or even here in Pluckemin, New Jersey, where I've had fantastic meals. I'm coming to Utah to ski, not dine.

Don't do yourself a disservice. There is fantastic dining in Utah. BTW, the food in both the base lodge and two top lodges at Snowbasin is second only to Deer Valley of the in state ski areas, and it's far superior to everyone else.

And one of the best kept local secrets is the ungroomed terrain and the terrain that isn't on the map at Deer Valley. And there's a lot more interesting terrain there than just the Daley Chutes. You might find this article of interest:
http://www.skinet.com/travel/2008-12/deer-valleys-new-sharp-edge

[From: skinet.com/SKI Magazine]

 

[Admin]

[From: skinet.com/SKI Magazine]

Blasphemy!


Anyhoo, back on point. I spent a day at DV as recently as last winter (with Mr. Crocker, coincidentally). I recognize that DV does some things exceedingly well. They cater to a particular clientele and are exceptionally successful in doing so. I also never miss the opportunity to dine there.

However, the skiing isn't what jkamien's looking for. And no, I'm not trying to project myself on jkamien. Deer Valley does groomers and bumps quite well. Unmarked woods between marked runs offer a terrific refuge for freshies on a powder day. However, Marc, I beg to differ with you (and apparently that other ski periodical that shall remain unnamed). Aside from some cliffy areas directly beneath the new lift to the east of Empire Canyon (whose name escapes me momentarily) and the Daly Chutes, there really are no serious off-piste steeps at DV. Some sections of Bald Mountain offer steep groomers -- and incredibly fun ones at that -- but jkamien has already stated he's not looking for that. Empire Bowl, the Sultan area, etc. offer great steep bumps, but I suspect that jkamien's got enough of those at MRG.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Solitude looks like the consensus for Day 2. So which of you locals wants to join me on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 (my actual 50th birthday)?

Rule #1: Make that decision based on previous night weather forecast or early morning report. Or if you want to keep it simple, just go wherever BobbyD is skiing. :lol:

Remind me, Tony: how many times have you skied there...say, in the past three decades?

3 full days and 3 half days split with Brighton. That is precisely my point. No intimate local knowledge was needed to score fresh tracks all day, even on President's weekend. And the majority of that was on the 1,400 vert Eagle and 1,600 vert Powderhorn chairs. The short vert runs were when Honeycomb opened, but they were waist deep and knowing admin's attitude about quality he would have been there too.

The Utah debates I have with admin are overemphasized here. I would be in LCC most of the same days he is due to:
1) Better terrain and snow preservation when there is no new snow
2) Many of the new snow days LCC gets so much more than the other places that it's the right call despite competition.
3) Even when everyone has new snow I only argue against LCC if there are likely to be substantial delays in opening terrain or especially the road. Or if it's a peak time like Christmas week or President's weekend.

In 2007 I was at Solitude because it was President's Day and because BCC actually got more snow from that particular storm than LCC.

I agree with admin's terrain analysis of Deer Valley. Ontario and Mayflower would be great with very fresh snow, but both face east and get zapped by the sun even in January, as admin and I found out the hard way last year.

And also the thrown at skinet/SKI Magazine. It is sometimes shocking to read an article about a place you know fairly well, and realize how little time the writer must have actually spent there. I'm occasionally paranoid on this point when I write features. I will often grill someone who has spent a lot more time someplace to find out what I'm missing. And particularly to find out if the conditions I experienced were unrepresentative.

 

[Admin]

No intimate local knowledge was needed to score fresh tracks all day, even on President's weekend. And the majority of that was on the 1,400 vert Eagle and 1,600 vert Powderhorn chairs.

Precisely my point: by sticking primarily to those two lifts you missed out on some of the best of a Solitude powder day. I would've used Powderhorn, too, but only to access the Parachute (where I suspect Marc_C finds himself cliffed out) and Black Forest gates, even though the best Black Forest access is off Summit. Powderhorn's front side is a short steep followed by two-thirds of runout and is best reserved, IMO, for days when the snow's a bit older. Parachute gate accesses steep, long, hairy east-facing terrain in the vicinity of Milk Run that's positively miserable unless the powder's fresh, when it's incredible, or it's corned up. Black Forest is some of my favorite Solitude terrain, but it faces west and is also thus best reserved for a powder day. I would've used Summit to access Corner Chute, Emerald Forest, Evergreen, and possibly Lake Mary off Highway to Heaven if that gate was open and the snowpack was relatively stable. I would've used Eagle or even Honeycomb Return, but only to access a little semi-secret favorite spot that's not terribly obvious.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have no doubt that Utah locals could have done better than I at Solitude. But for this relatively uninformed tourist to come up with 23K/13K powder (with a 10AM start yet) by strict definition made the day pretty high on my list. Above last March 10 at Alta for example.

I did go out the Parachute/Milk Run once. Great powder on the top 2/3 or so to a sketchy choke point and some chop below that to get to Summit. The lower part of Powderhorn had low-angle cottonwoods that were untracked all day long. I credit admin for pointing out similar trees to me at Powder Mt. 2 days earlier, so I spotted these and took advantage a few times.

 

[Marc_C]

However, the skiing isn't what jkamien's looking for. And no, I'm not trying to project myself on jkamien. Deer Valley does groomers and bumps quite well. Unmarked woods between marked runs offer a terrific refuge for freshies on a powder day. However, Marc, I beg to differ with you (and apparently that other ski periodical that shall remain unnamed). Aside from some cliffy areas directly beneath the new lift to the east of Empire Canyon (whose name escapes me momentarily) and the Daly Chutes, there really are no serious off-piste steeps at DV.

Lady Morgan Express.

I was primarily referring to the usually un-to-lightly tracked trees between on-map runs and some of the little nooks and crannies around the Mayflower and Sultan lifts and there's some interesting stuff in Ontario Bowl. But I agree, while it has some, DV is not where you go in the Park City group if you're looking for steeps. Other than the aforementioned areas, DV just doesn't have the topography.