Cannon Mt. - 4/12/03

L

Lftgly

New member
The weather forecasters blew the call. It didn't become apparent until 8-9AM that the predicted rainy day was turning out to be a beautiful spring skiing day. By then, it was too late to head for Mt. W. with any chance of getting a parking spot at Pinkham. The safe "rainy day" plan of skiing Cannon turned out to be a pretty damn good choice, after all. <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2155.jpg" ALT="the Front Five"> <BR>Mid-morning skies were blue, with thin mares tails over Cannon, and a cloud bank to the east over the Presidentials, which receded towards the coast as the day wore on (it must have been a great day in Tucks!). Temps rose from 40s to 60s, and snow conditions were a mix of perfect corn, loose granular, and heavier mashed potatoes. <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2156.jpg" ALT="view from Peabody"> <BR>Cannon ended the first week after closing day (Sunday, April 6) with hardly a bare spot on any trail, top to bottom. Recent tracks were in evidence from snowcats, snowmobiles, snowboarders, snowshoers, swiss bobs (or was that a snowmaker's shovel?), skiers, hikers, and at least one bear. In the course of the day, I saw about a dozen skiers & riders on the mountain, not counting a group of snowshoers at the summit. <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2157.jpg" ALT="Tramway"> <BR>Skinned up Lower Cannon, Middle Cannon, Tramway to Vistaway, to the summit, and found a couple of the usual suspects had beat me there (and had already skied Avalanche!). We skied Vista Way, Tramway, Taft Slalom, Skylight, Profile, then Upper to Middle Hardscrabble, to Redball to Turnpike. Even the natural snow cover was good on Middle Hardscrabble, with a solid line down skier's right on the last pitch. <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2158.jpg" ALT="Skylight"> <BR>For those who don't mind earning their turns, it looks like it will continue to hold up for a couple more weeks of top-to-bottom skiing, possibly into May. <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2159.jpg" ALT="Profile">
 
i just can't take it anymore... i am the angry, pissed off injured white man and i admit it...i'm not gonna clog up the site with a bunch of rants that nobody cares about, but really guys , what the hell is the story with the ski industry.if there is any more evidence that something is rotten in denmark, it's lftgly's photos from cannon on 4-12. i don't know who to put the blame on, the industry or the public, but someone or some people really are just plain stupid. there is no other way to put it. we have so much to be thankful for in this country, mostly for being free and having freedom and having young people willing to go die for it. so we ought to live every day to the fullest that we can. people who are members of this la cosa nostra skiing thing of ours, ought to be ashamed that they are not demanding lift access to places like cannon on days like this. the above pictures , to me, are a thing of beauty... not having been on my skis in about a month now, i am obviously yearning... yearning for that smell of spring and 55 f and wet sun drenched corn snow....WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH PEOPLE. WHY IN GOD'S NAME DO PEOPLE CLAMOR TO GET OUT AND SLIDE AROUND ON THE HARDPACK IN THE FIRST 2 WEEKS OF NOVEMBER AND FREEZE THEIR ASSES OFF ALL THROUGH JAN AND FEB AND THEN WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT JUMP SHIP THE LAST WEEK OF MARCH. why is feb school vacation the time to ski.. why not april school vacation? there are a lot of bad things in the world , so i hesitate to call it a sin, but there is something really wrong with a place that has snow like cannon that does not have skiers on snow on a day like today. my buddy gil and i have talked about this a lot and have come up with 2 things. yes, generally people are stupid, as elitist as that sounds, there has to be some blame on people . and 2) resorts are at fault because of the lack of promotion... or should i say the type of promotion they do... "come learn to ski on the new shaped skis" "it's virtually effortless skiing " that's the mantra today... and it's true... WHEN CONDITIONS ARE PERFECT PACKED POWDER. i started to realize something this season... if you are on your skis in a foreward stance and on your toes, conditions generally do not matter... this does however require effort... not quite the easy stress free experience these resorts are selling these days. and the problem is spring corn is not perfect packed powder... if you are sitting in the middle of your new rossi quadruple x bandit super duper fly cadillac skis that the dope at ski market told you will ski by itself...yeah it will fell like " heavy snow " and it will be " hard to turn ". well maybe if someone would step up and say that that skiing technique of staying centered in the ski and letting the shape make the turn is a crock of bull cookies, them maybe we could start getting people to ski properly... the people who do ski properly know the utter feeling of ectasy of spring corn on a 50f day with a little wind and a blue bird sky... these people don't seem to have a problem turning in " heavy snow " the problem is there is just not enough of these people...here's an interesting question, why is it that so many are willing to play golf, play it badly, realize and admit they are playing badly, and feel the need to do something about it ( lessons, video, films, reading material PRACTICE WITH A PURPOSE ) why is it that so many are willing to go skiing , ski badly, and not give a rats ass? how do you think the average skier would react to being told he is skiing all wrong. i think i know cause i've seen it. and it is not good. amybe it's becasue it's easy to look like a jack ass if you can't get off the tee on the 1st hole. shanking it into the woods off the fairway? hmmm maybe something is wrong with my swing!!!! can't turn the ski in the " heavy snow " ? ahhh no one can ski this stuff... let's hit the lodge for beers... lftgly, your post was tough to take man...maybe it's works cause i'm off the skis. but the last 2 weeks of seeing these resorts shutting it down after this alleged " great winter " where one would assume the balance sheet showed a little profit, they would push it a little and reward those who know and are in the know.. i mean, mad river glen shutting it down before the end of march in a good year? . i don't mean to pick on mad river.. the disgraces abound... buddy gil reports loon is shutting it down on easter... he reports if things remained constant they could easily go to may 1st.. sunday river shutting down before may 1st.. they should be the eastern alternative to k mart and blow a trail all winter and go till memorial day... k is the only one with any courage at all... look i don't expect every weekend warrior to be a sick bird like me and want a 7 month season...i don't expect every person who puts on skis to out bashin bumps in may... but there has got to be a way to get some of these resorts to spin the lifts past april 1st.. am i wrong here? am i out of my mind? i'm going to go throw up now.. thanks a lot lftgly!!!! 97 days till whistler. it can't come soon enough
 
Jeez, joegm, who peed in your cornflakes this morning? <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/smile2.gif"> <BR> <BR>You're asking an age-old question, like why did the dinosaurs die off? People are jonesing in the beginning of the season, much like you are now, then get the urge to break out the sailboat or the <shudder> golf clubs at this time of year. That, and the casual skier forgets about winter sports when the daffodils bloom back home. <BR> <BR>That said, I agree with you on one major point: it's a cryin' shame.
 
I am going to weigh in again on this topic with a western perspective, especially since I've now seen eastern skiing with spring conditions. <BR> <BR>Joegm's point is more true in the West than in the East, and I have voted accordingly with my $. My median ski day lifetime is March 1 (same number of days skied before and after that date). I have skied 2.0 million vertical in April vs. 2.1 million in January, and 900K in May vs. 1.1 million in December. <BR> <BR>We all know from the misadventures of ASC etc. that the economics of the ski industry are difficult. Therefore facilities are not going to operate if we, the skiing public, don't show up in sufficient numbers to utilize them. So yes, most skiers are stupid in this regard. <BR> <BR>Any ski area operating past early-to-mid-April needs to draw on a large population base in order for the minority of knowledgeable advanced skiers to provide an economic critical mass. Here in L.A. we are fortunate in this regard. We have Mammoth 5 hours away open until Memorial Day in 90+% of seasons. Credit also goes to founder/entrepreneur Dave McCoy, who will keep the area open until July 4th in the biggest seasons. But the L.A. population base also supports the Big Bear areas until the later of Easter or mid-April, and in our big El Nino of 1998 I skied Mt. Baldy in powder on May 14 and in corn on May 31. I do think it helps here that skiers don't necessarily abandon snow for the golf course when golf and other warm weather recreations are available all year. <BR> <BR>The only better spring area than Mammoth IMHO is Mt. Bachelor. It was recently purchased by the Park City/Alpine Meadows group and will now close arbitrarily on Memorial Day even though it is skiable until July most of the time (vs. about 30% at Mammoth). Its closest population base is Portland, and in summer they won't make the 3.5 hour trek to Bachelor (even though quantity and quality of skiing is much better) when Mt. Hood is only an hour away. In Colorado several areas within day commute distance of Denver stay open while the western Colorado resorts (dependent on destination skiers) close in early April. <BR> <BR>With regard to eastern spring skiing, I will be blunt and state that it is far inferior to the western variety. Eastern skiers desecrate the term "corn snow" by referring to the heavy sludge you must push around with effort and advanced skills. True corn snow (a thin top layer quickly and uniformly softened while the subsurface remains frozen) is even more effortless than packed powder and very much amenable to the "staying centered in the ski and letting the shape make the turn" technique. Bachelor and Mammoth salt the groomed runs to maintain this quality snow surface for several hours each morning starting around May 1. This is not necessary in April as often as not it is still winter then (note my and my son's reports from last weekend). <BR> <BR>With regard to my specific eastern experience, I will first defend Mad River. While my T-shirt mogul day March 17 was very enjoyable, with most everything from Paradise on down still skiable, it was obvious that snow cover was not that deep and that the area would not survive long if the weather continued. If you read Mark Renson's reports you'll see that he went up there March 29-30 intending to ski, but that the area was so melted down they had to close. And to their credit they did reopen April 5-6 when the weather took a favorable turn. <BR> <BR>On my 1990 spring weekend I was astounded to find 2,000 people in Tuckerman's ravine April 28. After skiing Killington the next day I understood completely. Mt. Washington's terrain and snow were sufficiently superior that most advanced skiers would prefer a few earned turns in Tucks to the lift-serviced slop elsewhere. <BR> <BR>I don't recall much in the way of lift lines that Sunday at Killington either. So it appears that Killington's capacity is adequate to support the mid-to-late spring advanced skier base in the Northeast. Who else in New England should try to run late? Wildcat would seem logical since the people up there to ski Tuckerman's could do one day of lift service on a weekend trip. I thought they did go to first weekend of May in 2001. Sunday River presumably has a similar stockpiled snowmaking base as Killington, but I think it's just as far from Boston and much farther from the rest of the Northeast.
 
<A HREF="http://www.skinh.com/closingdates.htm" TARGET="_top">http://www.skinh.com/closingdates.htm</A> <BR>Read it and weep. <BR> <BR>Joe, you are preaching to the choir. Sorry to hear about your shoulder.
 
tony c gives his usual straight foreward logical analysis. and i agree with everything he says. clearly the onus is on the public to show up.. i can only add one thing. the proliferation of short money season passes the last 5 years or so, and to some extent season passes in general, makes it a little more complicated. maybe marc g or mad river mark could weigh in but my question is , does the resort essentially say, we need daily cash ticket revenues to justify the daily operating cost in order to operate? maybe that is way to a simplistic formula, but i am curious as to what the parameters are for spinning the lifts? the reason being is that i would guess that a large amount of pre december and post april 1st skiers would be pass holders... people likely to ski more than the average, what ever that is. i am speculative that this is the case , but could discounted season passes actually shorten the season?... a mid week season pass, which is good on weekends after mid april can be brought for $399 at killington by aug of the prev year... like tony c i have no use for certain aspects of the asc corp, but say what you will... $399 to ski k for the season is not a bad deal.. considering their daily ticket is around 60. my point is that these advanced skiers, as tony c puts it, are more than likely the ones who would be looking to ski post april 1st. do the resorts factor that money ( season pass money collected up front ) to the equation when determining last call for lift service. i know it's a question that probably has no cookie cutter answer, and a lot of it may come down , like tony c says, to good owners like mccoy at mammoth. obviously again like tony says, logistics plays a part. for me to expect jay to stay open is not realistic, it is to far from the masses and i give that up. i wonder though, if a place like cannon, and then a place like sunday or like tony said wildcat, could see benefits from blowing the hell out of a trail all year long, like k does on superstar and pushing it as long as they could. how much could it cost for cannon to run only the front face triple to serve paulies or zoomer, for set up like superstar at k. they announce well out in front, no cafeteria will be open, and just have a minimum amount of people required to operate and patrol... k for the western side of new england, cannon for the central and cat or sunday for the east. maybe the market just isn't there.. i don't know... it really is sad though. the only other observation i have made this year is that to me, a good winter ( as protrayed by the resort pr and the media ) appears to me to almost shorten the season... it seems to me that resorts make less fake,(not as good as fresh but more durable) in the good year... it was cold as hell this winter, but in two weeks it all seemed to far apart, ie mad river. why? is it because, the natural, while great to ski on in feb, allows the resorts to shut off the guns and not have to build a durable base? just an observation i made over the last 4 years. i am curious to see this year ( from buddy gil of course ) to see how the superstar holds up through may and if k laid off a little cause of the good snow years. i can vividly remember 2 seasons ago ( not including this past one ) that superstar seemed to fall quicker than iraq once the heat set in.. but last year, a bad snow year by anyone's standards ( and i admit the spring weather was good for holding snow ) k held up quite well through may!!!
 
i knew i forgot something.. anyone who has ever worked at an eastern resorts please weigh in.. did you ever hear it discussed with any seriousness , the point tony c made about certain areas that salt their runs. i am talking about for purposes of warm weather preservation of course... not for the big downhill race in january and feb... this clearly does work , as i have seen how well it works at blackcomb in the summer... just another dart to throw at the eastern resorts excuse board
 
clearly, resorts will not spin the lifts if they anticipate running at a lose. given that, not only do fewer skier's show up as the season grinds to it's finale, a lot of skier's that do show up are season pass holders. a lot of the paying population aquire discount passes, or the resort discounts their rate further reducing revenues. <BR> <BR>additionally, late season skiers are generally savy in the logistics of skiing and don't require hotels, meals, gift shops, etc. (i.e. the stuff that really drives revenues). <BR> <BR>as much as it hurts, it happens every year and sad as it may be... it's a blow we all must take. last year, cannon closed 100% open (granted, the slow wasn't as high quality and as deeep a base though). so did burke, vt. <BR> <BR>once that big melt comes, the average skier breaks out the spring sports... and who can blame them? heck, if it hadn't snowed hard about 10 days ago, you surely would not have seen my trip report from cannon a week ago... cause i was originally planning a bare boot hike of monadnock! <BR> <BR>i say if you're die hard enough to want to ski in april, you gotta be ready to hike/skin. after looking at those pics, i just may be ready! lol.
 
joegm, yeah ski area economics is a tough one. skied k this weekend and driving past pico on the way home was heartbreaking. looks like they could be 100% open yet they've been closed for 2 weeks. k despite all the snow has announced that this past weekend was the last weekend for bear & needles. once again economics rules. and i agree with you about them cutting back on the snowmaking because it was a good snow year. only thing is they got bit in the butt because we didn't get the usual march snow. the base on supe is the lowest i've seen in years and memorial looks real doubtful at this point. seems like the best scenario is to have the snow backloaded. let them have to blow a lot early and then get tons of snow from president's on. <BR> <BR>ski
 
Mammoth instituted the $399 season pass about 3 years ago. It goes on sale April 1 and is good from May 1 forward in the current season plus all of the next season with no blackout dates. <BR> <BR>I was rather surprised with this move (I don't know whether it was McCoy's or Intrawest's idea) because I always viewed Mammoth as close to a monopoly for L.A. skiers. I guess I was wrong. The local day commute areas are snowmaking dependent 1,000+ footers (albeit with world class terrain parks), but for the teenage/young adult market the cost difference between day areas and the mandatory 2+ night lodging cost of Mammoth must be a deterrent. <BR> <BR>Mammoth sells about 25,000 of these per season, and at the NASJA meeting their marketing director claims the average $399 pass is used only 6.5 times! Considering all the locals skiing 50-100 days, a lot of the L.A. purchasers are making a foolish investment. The ski areas like the cheap passes regardless of use because of the up-front cash flow. Note that Mammoth has not tampered with closing dates since offering the passes. <BR> <BR>The Denver/Colorado and Bachelor/Oregon situations show that late spring skiing tends to be most viable when the areas are within day commute distance. I think you've got to factor that in for Sunday River as much as Jay. Mammoth can break this mold because 1) The quality is so high (I've even seen Canadians there in May/June) 2) The population base is large and the L.A. local snow is gone by mid-April and 3) There are other attractions like fishing season and Yosemite to go along with the skiing. <BR> <BR>The latter point is why I would speculate that the Wildcat/Mt. Washington combination might work. <BR> <BR>While salting preserves the surface I think it speeds the overall melting process, which might be counterproductive in the East. I was also told that they don't allow it at Snowbird because the Cottonwood Canyons drain into SLC's water supply. So maybe the Act 250 crowd in Vermont would raise a stink. Of course Mammoth drains into the L.A. Aqueduct...
 
the 399 mammoth season ticket plus the bonus season is something that i was not aware of... i have not been to mammoth , but from what iv'e seen on this site, seen in the mags and on the films, that is almost incomprehensible... that place appears to make killington look like pat's peak... not that there is anything wrong with pat's peak mind you <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)">....i've been saying for a few years now that if i ever do go west for a non summer ski trip, mammoth would be the place i would go. it's hard to find anything negative about that place from what i've seen...the t parks look outrageous and the alpine above the tree line looks insane, when it is open... the only thing i can see about the place is like tony said, the location... which apparently, is not really a problem, even though i figured it would be with the commute from the greater la area. jay peak's cross to bear seems to be the 3 1/2 ride from greater boston.. that seems not bad at all when put up against the l.a. commute to mammoth. i still can't believe that.. 399 to ski mammoth with no restrictions... mammoth seems like the type of place that could take a good skier 50 days a season for 2 or 3 seasons to really get to know well...and i would guess tony is correct about the salting here in the east with so many leased resorts and water supply spill outs.. i really like the east coast and can't see leaving here, but can anyone imagine being a sick bird skier and living within 2 hrs of a place like mammoth. unbelievable!!!!!
 
A $399 season pass to Mammoth is a tremendous deal. I have skied Mammoth about 14 times and it is a tremendous ski area that makes K'ton look like the snow pile at the edge of Pat's Peak parking lot. The mountain has many lines that are unnamed and many secrets. <BR> <BR>The downside to Mammoth is it can get crowded in the base area because of insufficient parking and a looong drive from LA on roads not quite Interstate standard. Certain trails can get a few people on them which may not be crowded by eastern standards. I was once hit by the same snow boarder twice on Upper Dry Creek, go figure that one. Mid-week the place is deserted and if it isn't a raging blizzard the sun is out. <BR> <BR>Many westerners don't ski when it is snowing. During a windy snow storm I skied June Mountain with my brother and we were two of the three people skiing. We skied laps through the trees in knee deep all day. I was sore from laughing so much. <BR> <BR>Ahh Mammoth. <BR> <BR>Jo I hope your arm is better!
 
I have detailed guide to Mammoth (written 1997: there are now 7 high-speed chairs vs. 2 then) at <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tcrocker818/mmthguid.htm" TARGET="_top">http://home.earthlink.net/~tcrocker818/mmthguid.htm</A>. On April 5th my lifetime vertical skied at Mammoth passed 4 million. Now you can see why I'm so picky about snow conditions. <BR> <BR>I have now skied 87 lift-serviced areas and still rank Mammoth #3. For those of you who have been to Whistler, it's the most similar mountain terrain-wise. I rank Whistler/Blackcomb #2 because it has 2 areas of that scale instead of just one. <BR> <BR>Mammoth is a poor mountain to ski during storms because up to 3/4 of terrain and nearly all the steeps are closed due to wind, visibility or avalanche danger. Dedicated skiers can make the 45-minute trek to more sheltered June Mt. on the worst weather days. <BR> <BR>Mammoth is 5 hours from the most accessible L.A. suburbs (more like 6 from most beach areas), thus precluding day skiers unless they are ironmen. About 80 miles of the drive is 2-lane now vs. 150 miles 20 years ago. Traffic was much worse then with all the ski club buses. <BR> <BR>I would assume that Montreal, not Boston, would be the major source of Jay skiers, particularly day trippers.
 
Sunday River and Sugarloaf are open through April 20, same date as Vail, Breckenridge, Copper and Winter Park. This doesn't seem unreasonable based on what I have seen and know of eastern spring skiing. <BR> <BR>The first 3 Colorado areas have historically gone a week or two later than this. I suspect most resorts set a date to lay off employees etc. Colorado has had a recent run of below average springs, with 2002 so bad as to force some premature closings. So I suspect some of these backed up their dates this year, and naturally this spring turned out to be a good one. Still, they should have the same historical data I do, and thus know that late April is usually reliable in Colorado. <BR> <BR>Here in SoCal it seems to be more flexible. 2 areas reopened today after 1-2 feet of new snow yesterday. But it helps that this is spring break week for most California public schools.
 
Mammoth does have a quota on the $399 Value Passes. For 2003-04 that quota was exceeded last weekend and sales have been cut off. I bought a teen pass for my son Adam for $299. It will be good next year even though he turns 19 in December. <BR> <BR>As mentioned above, I think they want to sell about 25,000 of these, and since they must be purchased in April of the prior season, there tends to be some inefficient use. So the ski area wins by getting up-front defined cash flow without giving that much away overall, and some of the skiers make out big.
 
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