Epic & Ikon Insurance: CA/VT closed

[ChrisC]

What are the insurance / refund policies for the Epic & Ikon passes? What counts as closure?

Effectively the following resorts are closed:

California till New Years
VT
All of Canada
All of Europe (Zermatt, Chamonix, Verbier, 3 Vallees, etc)
All of Asia (Japan)
All of Australia and NZ

I would estimate more than 50-60% of the terrain under the passes is unavailable to the majority of pass holders.


Covid numbers should continue to spike through NYers....with max cases/deaths in January-February - causing perhaps more restrictions. Look at some of CDC estimates for January.

 

[tseeb]

Ski areas in CA are not closed and nobody is enforcing stay-at-home orders. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/10/ ... -about-it/ says the following:

"Since the announcement last month of a curfew in most of California, more than 20 county sheriffs have issued public statements on enforcement of coronavirus restrictions.

Almost all of them have stated they will not be enforcing the rules — some in blandly official language, and others more contentiously."

If you want to do more than daytrip, you would have to stay privately or go to NV. I have not been following all the rules and news in VT, but I have heard they are doing more (or at least some?) enforcement.

I did not renew my Ikon, but my understanding is that you have until April to rollover $ spent on an unused pass towards 21-22 pass that would likely be a little more expensive than this year's. That did not work well for me as group I hoped to join in late-Feb was going to Aspen which meant buying a full pass, then they would be going to UT the following year which does not require full pass so I could have ended up with more rollover $ than I'd need to buy a next year's base pass.

Epic is more complicated. There is a lot of discussion on CA restrictions at https://www.skitalk.com/threads/underst ... ons.21634/ where I posted the following:

You have to go deep into Epic Coverage at Epic Season Pass (epicpass.com), but they do allow you to apply for a refund in May due to local stay-at-home order (see below). Refund will be reduced for each day your pass has been used and goes away if you use 7 days.

Does Santa Clara County shutdown from 10 PM on 12/6 to 1/4 count as thirty consecutive or is it 29.1 since it only covered 2 hours on 12/6? It does cover more than seven days during the "Core Season" which starts today.

I had reservations for 12/2 and 12/3 at Heavenly and 12/4 (opening day) at Kirkwood last week, but canceled. My wife had strong objections to me going, even though I think going solo to family cabin that had not been used since Oct. and trying to avoid going to grocery stores while there is not much more dangerous than going to grocery store or Home Depot.

Section F

Personal Event REFUNDS

Refund Eligibility. You may be eligible for a “Personal Event Refund” if you are prevented from using your Pass during the Core Season due to a “Qualifying Personal Event”.

A Qualifying Personal Event is one or more of the following:
Stay-at Home Order. You are unable to use your Pass during the Core Season because the municipality, county, state, province, or country in which your Permanent Residence is located is subject to a “quarantine,” “stay-at-home,” “shelter-in-place” or other comparable mandatory governmental order lasting thirty (30) or more consecutive days, at least seven (7) days of which are during the Core Season. Your “Permanent Residence” refers to your fixed, permanent and principal home for legal and tax purposes.

The update I have to this is story on today's front page of San Jose Mercury News https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/10/ ... long-ride/ says our stay-at-home order will likely be extended past 1/4, which would put it past the 30 days required to get 100% refund, or partial refund for pass with limited use. I'm considering going next week where I have reservations at Kirkwood Wed and Fri and Heavenly on Thu, but would probably move schedule up a day to be home early Fri evening as my wife and I have an online event that we may attend from different locations. And I have to wonder if using a pass during a stay-at-home would invalidate the refund. I don't have much into these passes as my Senior Tahoe Value Pass was $359 after $90 credit for shortened last season and my wife's was $309. Her pass was more expensive, but I paid less for it since she got bigger credit as she only used it 1/1-1/3/2020.

 

[ChrisC]

This is all going to be a bit messy this season:

Keeping most of Europe closed for Christmas/NYears - except Switzerland.

Vail is forced to cancel some guest reservations and black out employee skiing in Colorado this weekend due to limited snow and terrain.
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/empl...ekend-reservations-full-uphill-access-closed/

Better snow soon...

 

[Tony Crocker]

What are the insurance / refund policies for the Epic & Ikon passes? What counts as closure?

Effectively the following resorts are closed:

California till New Years No, only hotels/dine-in restaurants
VT Not closed but severely quarantined to non-residents
All of Canada Maybe for foreigners, but not to Canadians
All of Europe (Zermatt, Chamonix, Verbier, 3 Vallees, etc) France, Germany, Italy closed, Switzerland and Austria open to their own citizens like Canada
All of Asia (Japan) SnowJapan shows open, don't know quarantine rules
All of Australia and NZ season over a long time ago

I would estimate more than 50-60% of the terrain under the passes is unavailable to the majority of pass holders.


Covid numbers should continue to spike through NYers....with max cases/deaths in January-February - causing perhaps more restrictions. Look at some of CDC estimates for January.

 

[sierra_cement]

What are the insurance / refund policies for the Epic & Ikon passes? What counts as closure?



Covid numbers should continue to spike through NYers....with max cases/deaths in January-February - causing perhaps more restrictions. Look at some of CDC estimates for January.

I'm regretting my Tahoe Local pass purchase this season. I had a reservation at Kirkwood for Xmas that I canceled a month ago. I have a one-week reservation for Heavenly in Feb and a week at Kirkwood in March. If I get to go I will get my money's worth out of the pass (around 13 to 15 days) but I am getting a feeling I won't be able to do that and I will have to fight Vail for the credit towards next season. The fine print rarely acts in favor of the consumer.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Ikon rules are straightfoward. Refunds are prorata based upn percentage of days closed between something like Dec. 10 - Apr. 10. You can choose based upon all resorts collectively or one resort user specified in October. We specified Mammoth, but the criterion is ski resort closed, not hotel closure or home travel restrictions.

About half of my Mammoth skiing is historically after April 1, so I'm cautiously optimistic that I will pay for my Ikon by the end of the season.

 

[tseeb]

Tony, Since you are posting does that mean you made it through EZE?

At https://www.ikonpass.com/en/adventure-assurance there is no refund for Ikon, only a credit towards next year's pass.

Epic gives a refund if your home city, county or state is under stay-at-home order for 30 days. If you use your pass, the refund is reduced. It goes to 0 if you use 7 days. See https://www.epicpass.com/info/epic-coverage.aspx for a lot of details.

 

[sierra_cement]

Epic gives a refund if your home city, county or state is under stay-at-home order for 30 days. If you use your pass, the refund is reduced. It goes to 0 if you use 7 days. See https://www.epicpass.com/info/epic-coverage.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a lot of details.

Great info. If things don't improve and they don't offer group lessons in Feb, I will be going that route. I see your post above where the stay at home orders for CA are < 30 days.

 

[tseeb]

My county's stay at home order was lifted on 1/25, but "The County’s Mandatory Directive on Travel, which requires most people who travel into the county from more than 150 miles away to quarantine for 10 days upon their arrival, is still in effect" although quarantine is not enforced in any way. Somebody at SkiTalk.com emailed the County and had distance interpreted as 150 air miles from the NE and SE corners of the County which covers all of the ski areas in the Sierra and the route from Tahoe to Mammoth. From https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pa ... -tier.aspx and https://www.skitalk.com/threads/underst ... ost-546813

So we had a stay-at-home order from 12/6 to 1/25 which meets Vail's Qualifying Personal Event of "Stay-at Home Order.
You are unable to use your Pass during the Core Season because the municipality, county, state, province, or country in which your Permanent Residence is located is subject to a “quarantine,” “stay-at-home,” “shelter-in-place” or other comparable mandatory governmental order lasting thirty (30) or more consecutive days, at least seven (7) days of which are during the Core Season."

But https://www.epicpass.com/info/epic-coverage.aspx says (with my bolding)

"Q: If I have a qualifying personal event, how do I request a refund?

A: We hope you get the most out of your pass purchase this season, but in the unfortunate event that a qualifying personal event occurs in your life, we have a dedicated team set up to assist you. The process to request a refund is:

The preferred method for submitting a refund request by visiting https://acmclaims.com/vail-resorts. You can also submit a refund request by calling 1-877-895-1297 or by emailing a representative at NewLosses@ACMClaims.com.

The refund request will be validated and the refund calculation will be determined. Please refer to the “How are Refunds Determined?” section for additional details.

A refund will be processed and sent to you.

You must submit your refund request within 30 days of the occurrence of your qualifying personal event to be eligible for a refund.

The problem with requesting a refund within 30 days, besides immediately invalidating your pass for further use, is how do you count within 30 days? If it's within 30 days of when stay-at-home was lifted, you have less than 2 weeks to claim refund, and invalidate your pass. But if it's within 30 days of when stay-at-home lasted more than 30 during peak season, you are too late and better make use of your pass.

It's not a problem for me as I have 8 days on my pass and plan to get 4 more next week, and pro-rated refund goes away at 7 days. But my wife is a 0 days and not planning to go next week, so she needs to get some use before currently scheduled 4/4 season closures.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Your wife has missed the chance for a refund because the hotel ban at Tahoe was lifted Jan. 12 and we are now 30 days past that?

I do not understand this statement at all.

But if it's within 30 days of when stay-at-home lasted more than 30 during peak season, you are too late and better make use of your pass.

Our Ikons are already paid for with 4 days at Big Bear and 3 in LCC/BCC. We still have Iron Blosam Week ahead plus spring at Mammoth and/or Bachelor.

 

[tseeb]

The Epic Pass refund is based on where you live (or not being able to reserve peak season days or ski area closure due to COVIDF, etc.). Our County was under stay-at-home order from 12/6 through 1/24 - more than 30 days which qualifies for refund. But not sure if you had to apply within 30 days of when stay-at-home lasted for 30 days or when it ended. For passholders like my wife or sierra_cement who have not used their Epic passes, they should use them as I've heard refunds are hard to get and people in my County may no longer qualify for one.

 

[Tony Crocker]

It seems to me that a claim must be filed within 30 days after Jan. 24. It makes no sense that the clock would start ticking while the lockdown was still in effect. But I'd say it's worth a phone call to clarify that point before filing the claim.

 

[tseeb]

Call Vail? Are you trying to be funny? Any answer received via phone would not be enforceable. And contacting Vail by phone is a common complaint. I've found I can get through if I call at 8:58 MST. Then I'm through the phone tree at 9 AM when they answer. 8:59 is too late to get through. Following is from https://www.epicpass.com/info/epic-coverage.aspx

4. How to Request for a Personal Event Refund.

a. Time Limitations. You must submit your request for a Personal Event Refund within thirty (30) days of when the Qualifying Personal Event arises. Untimely submissions may be rejected.

b. Form of Request. You must submit any request for a Personal Event Refund either by calling 1-877-895-1297, or by emailing a representative at NewLosses@ACMClaims.com. When submitting your request by phone or email, you must provide your name, the type of Pass you purchased, your Pass identification number, along with a description of the Qualifying Personal Event and reasonable proof to verify the occurrence of the Qualifying Personal Event. Improper submissions may be rejected.

c. Proof Requirements. Vail Resorts reserves the right to require you to submit proof to verify and establish the Qualifying Personal Event that is the basis for which you request a refund. This proof may include Physician verifications, videos, photos, travel documents, or other material we deem necessary to evaluate your refund request. You have an obligation to cooperate with us in our efforts to verify your Qualifying Personal Event, and we reserve the right to deny your refund request if you fail to do so. If you are unable to provide acceptable proof of a Qualifying Personal Event (as determined in our sole and absolute discretion) we reserve the right to deny your refund request.

5. No Access After Refund. If you receive any Personal Event Refund, the Pass for which you received the refund will cease to be valid and you will no longer be able to use the Pass to access any resorts for the remainder of the 2020/2021 season.

I was incorrect went I said pass is immediately invalidated when you ask for a refund. From reading 5. above, "pass will cease to be valid" if you receive refund, but I would not trust them to do it in the correct order. For my wife, we could ask for refund and if it is granted, she could ski on Buddy tickets from my pass which cost $81 at Kirkwood and $104 at Heavenly, but that means no longer being direct to lift. The break-even would be about 4 days (assuming 2 days at each), but refunding pass would also rollover the $220 discount my wife got from only using 2019-20 pass 3 days before they closed early.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Vail does not offer deferral to 2021-22 if you don't use your pass at all?

 

[tseeb]

I think the only rollover is the Credit everyone with 2019-2020 Epic Pass received for early closure based on days used can be rolled over towards 2021-22 if pass is refunded due a 2020-21 Personal Event (local stay-at-home for 30 days, job loss, personal injury or family member illness or injury, etc). For anyone who used pass over 6 days last year, the credit was 20%.

3. Credit Rollover. If you used your 2019/2020 Credit towards the purchase of a 2020/2021 Season Pass and you are eligible for a Personal Event Refund, you may be eligible to apply all or a portion of the 2019/2020 Credit towards the purchase of an equal or greater value pass for the 2021/2022 ski and ride season (the “Personal Event Credit Rollover”). The amount of your Personal Event Credit Rollover will equal your Personal Event Refund Percentage multiplied by the amount of your 2019/2020 Credit actually applied to your 2020/2021 Season Pass. You can only redeem your Credit Rollover towards the purchase of a single Season Pass for the 2021/2022 season. You cannot redeem any portion of your Credit Rollover for cash. If the Season Pass you purchase for the 2021/2022 season costs less than your Credit Rollover, the remaining portion of the Credit Rollover will be forfeited. Your Credit Rollover is non-transferrable. You must use your Credit Rollover on or before September 6, 2021 or it will expire and be forfeited.

 

[flyover]

For anyone who used pass over 6 days last year, the credit was 20%.

To make a planned 2020 spring break trip to Whistler affordable, we bought Epic local passes last season and skied 6 times at Afton Alps, a local molehill with less than 400 vertical feet, and a day pass that cost $50 last year. Here's the text of my final email to the mothership after all the back and forth with Vail's almost nonexistent customer service over the spring, summer and into the fall of 2020:

First you closed Whistler, thereby denying us use of our passes for a planned vacation last season when case counts were very low compared to now or likely anytime this coming winter. You then calculated a proposed "credit" of 20% based on the entirely false equivalency that a few hours at Afton Alps are worth the same as an entire day at one of your premier mountain resorts such as Vail or Whistler. Then you required us to redeem this “credit” by purchase of passes for a season in which no one in their right mind would consider setting foot inside a ski lodge or riding in a gondola. You are a bunch of thieves and my family and I will never spend another dime at any Vail resort anywhere.

I know, I know...pissing in the wind.

 

[tseeb]

Santa Clara County, CA where my wife and I live was under a stay-at-home order from 10 PM on 12/6 until 1/25 which exceeded the 30 days during core season required for a Vail personal event refund. I had reservations Vail Tahoe resorts for Dec. that I canceled because my wife said she did not want me to return home if I went. I finally went Jan. 6-8 and did not go inside anywhere besides family cabin that had not been used for a couple of months. Upon returning, I stayed in downstairs bedroom while my wife was upstairs and eventually got tested, received negative results and returned to sharing a bed. (This happened on our anniversary which was also the day we learned we both had received placebo during study and received our first vaccine that afternoon.)

I also skied 1/25-27 and 6 days in Feb. and 7 days so far in March so I have 19 days on my $369 (after 20% credit for early 19-20 closure due to COVID) Senior Tahoe Value Pass. On 2/24, 29 days after our County came out of stay-at-home and using online request form, I requested refund of my wife's unused $309 Tahoe Value Pass (after 44% off since she only skied 3 days in 2019-20) as I didn't want to wait after 30 days from personal event and miss deadline for requesting refund. They said to watch my junk mail as they may need more info and that refunds had been taking 4 weeks. Surprisingly, refund check (in her name, of course) arrived for the amount I paid for my wife's pass today, 10 days after I requested refund.

Now not sure if we will come out ahead on refund although they are supposed to also carryover 44% credit towards next year's pass. This past week my wife skied 2 days at Kirkwood and 1 at Heavenly on Buddy tickets for a total of $268 plus we did not have direct to lift benefit of a pass. There were no lines at ticket window, but it meant both of us had to go out of our way to get ticket activated each day. If conditions and weather are favorable, I will buy her a ticket for Kirkwood's closing day of 4/11 (they have extended a week), then we would go to Squaw and Mammoth on next year's Ikon which is valid at both areas beginning 4/12.

 

[DegraZZation]

I blame myself for not taking advantage of it!

 

[tseeb]

I realize that this thread has been dormant for almost 5 months, but it seems like as good as place as any to put my update.

After my wife's Tahoe Value pass was refunded in about 10 days (a check to her even though I bought the pass), she skied 3 days in March on Buddy tickets from my pass (2 days @$81 at Kirkwood and 1 @$106 at Heavenly when she got cold and there was nowhere to warm up so I took her back to cabin at 12:30 and had lunch before I returned and skied the rest of day). She also skied Kirkwood's closing day in April on an employee 1/2 price pass voucher. So I spent about $20 more on her 4 days than was refunded from her pass.

On my third attempt via email after twice getting reply that someone will look into it and get back to me and they never did, I tried again a couple of months later and threatened credit card dispute when they bill for balance of pass in Sept. They replied and agreed the 44% credit she received on her 2019-20 pass (as she only had 3 days before COVID shutdown) toward 2020-21 pass will be rolled over and applied to her 2021-22 pass as terms and conditions say it 'may'. So her 2021-22 Tahoe Value Pass should again be $309.

Note that she skied more than those 4 days during 2020-21 as I bought full Ikons for both of us that we plan to use for Aspen Gathering and maybe for a blackout day or two at Alpine/Squaw. We both skied 2 days at both Mammoth and Alpine/Squaw in April on next year's passes and I added 1 more at Squaw and 2 at Mammoth in May.

There is a Facebook group Epic Pass Class Action Lawsuit, but not sure they will get anywhere as having to quarantine before or after going skiing was not a Qualifying Event for 20-21 pass. Not wanting to travel during pandemic or not using pass before season ended were also not Qualifying Events. But I've heard of people getting hurt and not getting refund so I realize their processing of refunds may not have been perfect. (Maybe they did not apply within 30 days?)

There is also a class action against Ikon for season ending early in 2020 due to COVID. See https://www.skimag.com/news/heres-why-t ... dismissed/ Since I did not take their offer of a discount off the 20-21 pass (did not renew), I should be eligible for any award. Hopefully it's more than the $3.06 check I recently received by email and had to print at home from class action against Apple for an upgrade to my iPhone 4 making FaceTime inoperable a few years ago.