If a westerner moved to New England....

[snowave]

Ok, the chances of me moving out of Idaho are slim to none, however I've been intrigued by New England lately, mainly because I haven't been there since I was 10, and would love to go back and visit. The wife and I are shooting for next year sometime, probably in late summer/early fall. (would love to see the leaves in October, but way too crowded during that time). I am mostly interested in Maine, but upstate Vermont and NH are to be visited as well.

That got me thinking of where I'd live if I moved there. Being near a ski area (less than 30-45 min) that had relatively good snow, terrain (long groomers, plus some steep-ish off piste stuff for the rare powder days) and minimal crowds. I have lived in small towns (less than 5,000 people) for 20 years now, so I really don't want to be anywhere near the megalopolis. As long as there's grocery, maybe a Walmart or something within an hour or so away, and a few pubs around, I'm good.

My first choice would probably be around Rangeley, Maine. A long way from the big cities, and two really good ski areas (Saddleback and Sugarloaf) nearby. Sunday River is within striking distance, too (which I know can get busier). I know Jay Peak gets the most snow in the region, but I'm not really interested in Jay for other reasons. I think one thing that would be a possible deterrent in Rangeley is the ~200" of snow in town. That's quite a bit, and even more than I avg here in Idaho (100-150").


Remember, this is mostly fantasy, however, it's still something I'd be interested in getting input from.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I think one thing that would be a possible deterrent in Rangeley is the ~200" of snow in town.

I have data on that. Rangeley averages 112 inches since the late 1970's.

I know snowave has a strong preference for small towns, but anyone who has lived where he has will find Maine's snow reliability numbers unacceptable. Sugarloaf averages 172 inches. Its terrain reputation is excellent and it's good for snow preservation by eastern standards due to elevation, latitude and exposure. But here's the reality based on the past 21 years. Average percent of terrain open by date:

1-Dec​	13%​
15-Dec​	29%​
1-Jan​	46%​
15-Jan​	55%​
1-Feb​	69%​
14-Feb​	81%​
1-Mar​	82%​
15-Mar​	76%​
1-Apr​	71%​
10-Apr​	70%​

Sugarloaf is a big eastern mountain, but in actual ski terrain I'd be surprised if it's any bigger than Brundage though it has more vertical.

Plurality choice of best ski mountain in the Northeast is Stowe. Average snowfall 294 inches, average percent of terrain open by date:

1-Dec​	19%​
15-Dec​	48%​
1-Jan​	61%​
15-Jan​	74%​
1-Feb​	88%​
14-Feb​	92%​
1-Mar​	91%​
15-Mar​	90%​
1-Apr​	77%​
10-Apr​	57%​

For fresh snow, only northern Vermont is in the conversation with western areas. If you have total flexibility to chase powder on immediate notice, you can get as much in northern Vermont as in many western locations. But snowave has lived in western elite powder locations. Targhee and Wolf Creek are about as good as you can get, while Brundage gets 300 inches and is totally empty midweek. Northeast powder is probably as competitive as high profile areas in the West, and snowave doesn't like the high profile places. Sure Maine is more off the beaten track but that 172 inches translates to about 8% of Dec-Mar days with 6+ inches new snow.

As for overall snow conditions, those percents open tell the story. I track those stats for western areas too, but they are not computerized past mid-January because most western areas are 90+% open after that. Schweitzer for example averages 86% open Jan. 1. The rain/freeze events in the Northeast will close terrain, can be easily half of trails and all of off piste.

Snowave may have other reasons to be interested in upper New England, but the skiing will be a big step down from what he's been doing for the past decade. Given his crowd aversion, he will REALLY not want to ski weekends in the East.

 

[jasoncapecod]

I have data on that. Rangeley averages 112 inches since the late 1970's.

I know snowave has a string preference for small towns, but anyone who has lived where he has will find Maine's snow reliability numbers unacceptable. Sugarloaf averages 172 inches. Its terrain reputation is excellent and it's good for snow preservation by eastern standards due to elevation, latitude and exposure. But here's the reality based on the past 21 years. Average percent of terrain open by date:

1-Dec​	13%​
15-Dec​	29%​
1-Jan​	46%​
15-Jan​	55%​
1-Feb​	69%​
14-Feb​	81%​
1-Mar​	82%​
15-Mar​	76%​
1-Apr​	71%​
10-Apr​	70%​

Sugarloaf is a big eastern mountain, but in actual ski terrain I;d be surprised if it's any bigger than Brundage though it has more vertical.

It’s perty and all.
But the moose out number the humans

 

[Tony Crocker]

But the moose out number the humans

That's the part snowave would like. His western homes in Pagosa Springs and McCall are at least as remote.

 

[Skieric]

Its all about expectations. One can certainly have fun and a very enjoyable experience on smaller mountains with less snow.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Its all about expectations. One can certainly have fun and a very enjoyable experience on smaller mountains with less snow.

Yes but half open with no advanced terrain would be a deal breaker for many. Also, some people are employed and have to ski weekends. Snowave has been living close to some of the best places anywhere for those people: Targhee, Wolf Creek and Brundage. So I suspect he has very high standards from that experience.

 

[jimk]

I've skied quite a few areas in New England. In the state of Maine I've skied at Sugarloaf, Saddleback, Sunday River and Mt. Abram. I really liked Saddleback and Sugarloaf. Both are sort of rustic compared to places like Stowe or Stratton. And they are somewhat remote. Saddleback in particular had a pristine feel with beautiful views of the Rangeley Lake Region. Sugarloaf is bigger and has a pretty long ski season with fine spring skiing. They are about 45 min drive from each other. Both have some challenging terrain and good glades. My 3 or 4 visits to Maine for skiing were usually in spring after March 1. Although once back in the 1990s I went to Sugarloaf in mid-January because they had a big sale on rooms at the slopeside lodge. It was cold as crap and that's why they had the sale

Sugarloaf comments and photos from about ten years ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20151008181302/http://www.epicski.com/a/sugarloaf-me-a-pictorial

Comments and photos from about ten years ago on Saddleback, Sunday River and Mt. Abram: https://web.archive.org/web/20150915031226/http://www.epicski.com/a/skiing-maine-on-a-budget

As a tourist with no intention to move to northern New England I would say VT and NH are more interesting to visit in summer than inland Maine. More attractions and points of interest. Mostly lots of trees in Maine. Maine coast is another matter, it is quite beautiful. I was in Bar Harbor and Acadia NP in Oct of 2023.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Sugarloaf is bigger and has a pretty long ski season with fine spring skiing.

Yes the reputation for spring is well deserved. See comparison with Stowe in percents open in late season. But for a skier it seems a classic example of a great place to visit (at the right time!) but would you want to live there? Lots of bitter cold yet barely half open before February?

 

[jasoncapecod]

That's the part snowave would like. His western homes in Pagosa Springs and McCall are at least as remote.

It’s all fun and games until you have some chest pain etc, or in the mood for sushi

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Even though it's a legitimate question, all roads in these types of threads lead to "the northeast sucks," "the west is so fabulous," and the OP never actually goes through with the original premise. We had a similar discussion a few months ago under the "why should I spend my time and money to fly to Europe when I have great skiing nearby?" variant.

some people are employed and have to ski weekends.

The most helpful best practice (which applies anywhere but especially to the northeast) is demonstrated by @Harvey, a NE-only skier who consistently scores good to very good conditions across a season by being extremely opportunistic. Of course, it requires the marital, parental, and job freedom to move quickly and chase storms when necessary. While I have none of those three, if memory serves snowave has been retired for a while. Another key data point is that Harvey mixes it up between a few decent-sized (for the region) mountains and a fair number of snowy molehills so if the latter isn't a dealbreaker, the northeast can be done as long as you aren't a variety junkie who needs above-treeline terrain, for example.

To use a suggestion above, if someone were based in Rangeley, aren't there quite a few good eastern options within 2-3 hours (Eastern Townships, NH, VT, etc.) in addition to Saddleback, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf?

It’s all fun and games until you have some chest pain etc, or in the mood for sushi

Very good point!

 

[Tony Crocker]

all roads in these types of threads lead to "the northeast sucks," "the west is so fabulous,"

I anticipated that reaction, and so provided hard data to support my view. You can argue that it's better for a skier to live in Vermont than L.A. due to proximity/convenience, but there's no case vs. the locales where snowave has lived for the past decade.

We had a similar discussion a few months ago under the "why should I spend my time and money to fly to Europe when I have great skiing nearby?" variant.

It is a high bar when you live in the West, are working and it's a 8-9 hour time change. EMSC has argued this case frequently. It's the easterners who should follow James' lead and ski the Alps more often.

a variety junkie who needs above-treeline terrain

Guilty as charged. It's easy to critique lack of above-treeline terrain when Mammoth is your home mountain. Many Colorado areas have limited appeal to me for that reason. I'll hazard a guess that James has also acquired a taste for above treeline skiing over the past decade.

Harvey mixes it up between a few decent-sized (for the region) mountains and a fair number of snowy molehills

I honestly know of no one else who constrains himself so tightly to a limited ski region of primarily third tier (James' definition!) ski areas.

if memory serves snowave has been retired for a while.

I suspect not. I believe he has an IT job where he works remotely. His ski travel away from home doesn't sound like a retiree to me. In 2025 he had a week at Apex and Big White with lodging booked far in advance. His Bachelor trip was short and also booked beyond the weather forecast window.

If James had ever skied Brundage, he would see my points more clearly. Brundage is an area of James' dreams: consistent intermediate pitch, 300 inches of snow, widely spaced trees and extremely low skier density.

 

[Harvey]

constrains himself

I'm not constrained, I'm doing exactly what I want to do. I'm just making different choices than you would make.

Tony you are an amazing human, I've learned so much from you.

But you have limited capacity to understand others who define happiness differently than you do.

You're a world traveler. Think of me as someone from another culture.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

It's easy to critique lack of above-treeline terrain when Mammoth is your home mountain.

Are Sugarloaf (lift-served) and Tuckerman's (not lift-served) the only skiable terrain in the east that's above treeline? I guess that Katahdin doesn't count because it's illegal? I think there used to be a Meatheads clip that showed them doing it.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Think of me as someone from another culture.

That's exactly what I was going to suggest but would've said "he's carrying out a very unique ski project."

 

[flyover]

Are Sugarloaf (lift-served) and Tuckerman's (not lift-served) the only skiable terrain in the east that's above treeline? I guess that Katahdin doesn't count because it's illegal? I think there used to be a Meatheads clip that showed them doing it.

If we're including not lift-served terrain, don't forget the Chic-Chocs.

 

[flyover]

You're a world traveler. Think of me as someone from another culture.

This may be one of the greatest suggestions I have seen on this forum. It's respectful, constructive, and plainly illustrates Harvey' point about having different priorities. Kudos.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Think of me as someone from another culture.

That's exactly what I think. The fact that I don't know anyone else from that particular exclusive ski culture is not a criticism. I know many people who ski exclusively in particular locations, mostly at Mammoth and some like former admin in LCC.

I also know many people who hate air travel like jimk, most conspicuously Garry Klassen who worked for decades at American Airlines and almost never used flight privileges. Almost all of his vacations were car camping and as soon as he retired he got an RV.

Stephan in our Iron Blosam group is part of that NY ski culture, volunteering at Plattekill many weekends. But it's not exclusively as he is one of our Snowbird timeshare owners and also takes the occasional trip to Vermont.

 

[snowave]

Ok, thanks for the reality check!

First of all, thank you for all your opinions, I really appreciate it! Sure, I might not ever go through with it, but it's always intriguing to me to get input on a hair-brained idea. I do think we will come visit New England, and probably within the next year or two as the wife and I have been talking about it quite a bit.

To comment some of your posts:

Thanks for the updated snowfall for Rangeley. I should have done better homework. I had seen that 200" pasted all over the internet, but it looks like that's a marketing number.

I was already aware of the significant snowfall differences in NE/Maine vs most the west. (-minus a few). However, I didn't look at the % open date that TonyC posted. Some of those are pretty scary. I guess I wrongly assumed that snowmaking was more widespread than it is (at least in most areas) which would get more terrain opened sooner. I'm sure that may be the case with the bigger resorts with more extensive snowmaking. I'm also aware that in most cases, the snow/weather in the NE is going to be a different animal that the biggest change will be humidity with cold.

Harvey actually sounds like me. I actually prefer the smaller resorts/mountains. If they have some decent semi-steep terrain/vert (preferably 1500'+) and even 1 fast-ish lift, it's worth it to me, especially if I've avoiding the crowds. Good grooming is also a big plus, as if it's not a powder day, you'll mostly find me doing lots of carving. In fact, great bomber groomers are often more enjoyable to me than the "higher pressure" powder days (yes, even here in ID the locals often have lots of leeway with work to get in a powder morning). Most of my powder days actually come on storm days, as it's rarely busy, and I am quite familiar with the terrain/trees I spend time in.

I AM semi-retired... (aka... still waiting for my next career). I only have WEEKDAY passes locally, and rarely ride on trips to other resorts on the weekends. I don't really know what a liftline is. I can generally ski and travel when I want, however I do have a wife and 4 pets. So for Bachelor/other longer trips it's, that often at least some of commitment that needs to go through the wife. Also, any trip with the wife involves getting our pet sitter. She is often booked months in advance. I don't often jump in the car and powder chase, mainly because I get plenty of high quality powder days locally at both Brundage and Tamarack. I do like to do at least 1 or two longer trips every winter to explore new places.

I do love small towns, and prefer to be away from any big cities. I hate crowds... in every capacity. While sushi and chest pains may seem far fetched, all of the small towns I've lived in/near (Whitefish, MT Leavenworth WA, Alta Wy/Driggs, ID, Pagosa Springs CO, and McCall ID have all had a sushi restaurant, as well as a respectable level 4 trauma center/hospital. I do notice Rangeley does not have that, as the nearest hospital is almost an hour away. If I were to head up there, I won't limit myself to Rangeley. My appeal there is being rather remote, on a lake (we have a boat) and close two 2 really good ski areas are a plus to me. 3-4 hrs to the ocean isn't terrible, either. Being close to Canada is also a plus.

As for some other things that attract me to the NE.

1. More water. year round precipitation (vs very little rain in summer, here and often smoky). Green, great fall colors, ocean/coast nearby-ish, great seafood, politically more liberal/progressive/down to earth, culture/history.

Lastly. I get this is a ski forum, but as some have said, it's not ALL about riding for me. Yes, it's a big part of my winter, but I also enjoy many other things.

 

[Tony Crocker]

However, I didn't look at the % open date that TonyC posted.

You won't find it because nobody else records it twice a month and saves it for 20+ years. That unfortunately means I don't have it for anyplace I didn't think was worth my attention in 2004. For the Northeast the ones I have tracked : Jay, Stowe, Sugarbush, Killington, Okemo, Stratton, Whiteface, Cannon, Sunday River, Tremblant, St. Anne, Le Massif.

I guess I wrongly assumed that snowmaking was more widespread than it is (at least in most areas) which would get more terrain opened sooner.

There is a much higher proportion of terrain with snowmaking. But it rains a ton in the Northeast in November and enough in December sometimes to slow down terrain opening significantly. Here's highly manmade dependent Snow Summit's percent open stats:

1-Dec​	22%​
15-Dec​	43%​
1-Jan​	72%​
15-Jan​	85%​
1-Feb​	90%​
15-Feb​	90%​
1-Mar​	89%​
15-Mar​	86%​
1-Apr​	71%​
10-Apr​	38%​

Quite similar to Stowe, which gets 3x as much natural snow.

What is different is that most westerners assume that when terrain gets open, it stays open. In the Northeast that is most assuredly not true after rain/freeze events. Snowave has probably experienced this in a different way at Mt. High. After a foot of snow Mt. High likes to open all of West for a few days, during which it may get skied down to the rocks and then they revert back to the 35% or so that they can maintain with manmade.

Good grooming is also a big plus, as if it's not a powder day, you'll mostly find me doing lots of carving. In fact, great bomber groomers are often more enjoyable to me

At your recent abodes, those groomers are usually packed powder and maybe with a corn window in the spring. At snowmaking dependent areas, it's hard to get rid of that telltale slick subsurface. Liz, former admin and I bitch about that subsurface at Deer Valley, and I suspect the Northeast is often worse.

I hate crowds... in every capacity.

This is the real issue, and no doubt why Snowave is looking at Maine rather than Vermont to get farther away from NYC and Boston. But I believe anyplace in the Northeast with

decent semi-steep terrain/vert (preferably 1500'+) and even 1 fast-ish lift,

is going to be way busier than Brundage/Tamarack. That's another reason those groomers get scraped down to the manmade subsurface.

I'm spending a higher proportion of ski time on groomers as I age, and the quality of that skiing no question is enhanced by lower skier density.