Killington Bond Passes, ASC and Powdr Corp

Heard about it this morning. I was wondering how long it would take to show up here. :lol:
 
I posted my thoughts on this issue on AZ already. Not only is this completely justified and legal, I think it is a smart long term business decision. The life time season pass was based on an investment. Every investor should know you win some and you loose some. Long term investors probably won big, short term lost big. Too bad for those loosing pass privileges, but I don't see how you can hold a grudge against this sound business decision. The new owners sure are not going to loose any money if "life time season pass holders" choose not to "re-up" their new season passes, if you know what I mean. And since the mountain ops and real estate are two different entities, having condo owners sell to new owners who will buy passes is in Powd'rs best interest. I would have done the same thing.
 
I would agree that from a purely legal standpoint this is entirely justified. It looks like it would even make sense economically, since you don't have to give away a service your company wasn't paid for in the first place.

However, the optics are terrible on this one. It looks really bad when the hard-core locals are angry, and you can bet that from this day forward they will take any chance they get to slam K-mart to their friends. Will that have a big impact on skier numbers? Maybe not. But the amount of time Powdr is going to invest in trying to deal with angry lifetime pass holders, a PR cleanup etc might not be worth it.

IMHO their best strategy would have been to figure out the size of the initial investment and how long ago it was made. Then, figuring out how much of that investment the skier had already re-couped in pass compensation, offer then the remaining value in future seasons passes, plus 2 more seasons. Then they could say "hey, we didn't have to honor the passes, but we made sure people who fronted money to help build this place are farily compensated."

What would ]YOU do?
 
I heard about it. The fact is I just don't care one lick about what happens at Killington.
 
Harvey44":3o7t07yw said:
I heard about it. The fact is I just don't care one lick about what happens at Killington.

Word Harvey!

Couldn't care less...that place is so non-FTO it's a wonder anyone here does.
 
Admin":23urr5a6 said:
JimG.":23urr5a6 said:
that place is so non-FTO

Well, now...that killed any potential advertising sale. :lol:

Sorry boss...feel free to delete it. And this one because it's in the same mold.

Fact is, eastern skiing won't end if Killington flat out closes. I just feel it dominates eastern skiing discussions more than it should. Every year we hear the "K not opening early/K not closing late" complaints. EVERY SEASON. Question: why open early/close late from a marketing perspective if people talk about you whatever you do? I'd save the money and take the free press too. So, if you really want K to open earlier/close later, don't say a word. They don't care what you want as long as their brand is in your head. Once they know they're not on the brand name map anymore, maybe they'll be inspired to listen more.

Is it a coincidence this is announced just as skiing ends in the East? No way! The seeds of discussion are planted for another endless discussion of the brand. I hereby refuse to participate. I'm voting with my recognition and concern. Right now I have none.
 
Jonny D":2apn6xvp said:
However, the optics are terrible on this one. It looks really bad when the hard-core locals are angry, and you can bet that from this day forward they will take any chance they get to slam K-mart to their friends.
Not to split hairs here, but Kmart already gets slammed pretty hard :lol: I really don't see this issue effecting many people personally and I really don't see this issue effecting Kmart's biggest skier base. Especially the new guest base they are likely to develop just having different ownership, non-ASC ownership, different approach, and different attitude. All the typical New England skier cares about is two gondolas, highest lift serviced elevation in Vermont, highest Vertical gain in Vermont, tons of snow making, most trails in Vermont, best ski night life in New England, lots of lodging options, etc. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to dismiss hard core people ranting about core issues. I do it all the time when reviewing products. Just read the headline and move on knowing that someone is ranting and raving about a personal grievance that is not generalizable to the overall product.
 
I agree that a very small number of people are affected. But I find it somewhat ominous that the first action Powdr Corp takes at Killington so perfectly fits the cheap mode that has alienated the Oregon locals at Mt. Bachelor. Wouldn't they want to generate some positive publicity first?

Anyone think they will try to save some $ in grooming and/or snowmaking? What else did ASC do to cut costs the last few years besides trimming the early and late seasons?

I have to disagree with JimG. Consistent bad publicity will take its toll, especially in New England where there are numerous other areas with comparable terrain and snow. The Oregonians are a captive audience by comparison. And with Bachelor's altitude and snowfall you can't screw up the place that much. In New England penny pinching could have more immediate and visible effects.

And yes, it will affect FTO types to the extent that some of Killington's business moves north and makes those areas more crowded. My guess is Sugarbush is the most likely beneficiary.
 
Harvey44":2pczjz6p said:
I heard about it. The fact is I just don't care one lick about what happens at Killington.

Same here, I have never been there and probably won't. I do not hope that it closes, Killington attracts some good crowds and some bad. I don't want their rif-raf up in the northern parts. Thank god Jay may be too far for some city slickers.
 
Tony Crocker":3o46zphq said:
I have to disagree with JimG. Consistent bad publicity will take its toll, especially in New England where there are numerous other areas with comparable terrain and snow. The Oregonians are a captive audience by comparison. And with Bachelor's altitude and snowfall you can't screw up the place that much. In New England penny pinching could have more immediate and visible effects.

And yes, it will affect FTO types to the extent that some of Killington's business moves north and makes those areas more crowded. My guess is Sugarbush is the most likely beneficiary.

Point taken...yes, over the years bad press will make a difference.

By the same token, some of these issues that are at the forefront today will fade in importance and newbies will sign on to the program regardless. Since ASC took over, nobody seems to like whoever owns Killington anyway. All we've heard for years is complaining.

What's so different today?
 
Do New England areas publish skier visits? Killington could be compared to other areas to see if its trend is different.

Alta's skier visits were declining both in absolute terms and relative to Snowbird before the new Collins lift was built. Most ski areas will respond to a trend like this.
 
riverc0il":m7ma5nxi said:
Not to split hairs here, but Kmart already gets slammed pretty hard I really don't see this issue effecting many people personally and I really don't see this issue effecting Kmart's biggest skier base.

Eastern Liftliners users :roll: (whatever we call yourselves) would be likely become shareholders at MRG that getting into of some lifetime ticket at Killington. However I find that Kmart (Powdr) are pretty much penny pitching. How much do they safe with this measure, it can't be that much on the overall budget. What it did is pissed off some people that believe hard in K enough to invest in a lifetime pass. Some of these people might have bought homes or timeshares or whatever. Are these the people you want to piss off?

I believe that Powdr should live up to the lifetime passes, even if they might not legally have to.

JimG.":m7ma5nxi said:
Fact is, eastern skiing won't end if Killington flat out closes. I just feel it dominates eastern skiing discussions more than it should.

No, I don't think that Killington has half the reputation it did 20 years ago. Hardcore Eastern skiers have moved on and once Killington has less raves reviews as before, the general skiing public will see that Killington isn't the #1 area it used to be.

Tony Crocker":m7ma5nxi said:
I agree that a very small number of people are affected. But I find it somewhat ominous that the first action Powdr Corp takes at Killington so perfectly fits the cheap mode that has alienated the Oregon locals at Mt. Bachelor. Wouldn't they want to generate some positive publicity first?

Exactely. Has I mentioned above, how much money are they really saving with this move? Sounds pretty cheap to me, especially if it's they first move. The different between Oregon and Vermont, is that I believe that K is far from the only game in town. Bachelor is head and shoulder above the rest in Oregon, n'est pas?

Tony Crocker":m7ma5nxi said:
Consistent bad publicity will take its toll, especially in New England where there are numerous other areas with comparable terrain and snow. (...) In New England penny pinching could have more immediate and visible effects.

Yep, we agree again... :shock:
 
Here's an interesting point someone made on Epic:

But that's only the half of it. Who do you think owned these passes? Po-dunk dirtbags? No. Wealthy property owners in the town of Killington....either locals, or loyalist weekenders from metro areas. These people are smart, savvy, and involved in the town government. SP Land's primary objective is to develop a BASE VILLAGE. Guess who they need to go through to approve that? The Town. By cancelling the bond passes, these guys shot themselves right in the foot, right off the bat. BIG MISTAKE!!!

But Bob Peters (whom Patrick and I met at Jackson Hole) has a lifetime JHMR pass with much cleaner language and he thinks the Killington bond passholders don't have much of a case in court.
 
Tony Crocker":22uvvaow said:
Here's an interesting point someone made on Epic:

But that's only the half of it. Who do you think owned these passes? Po-dunk dirtbags? No. Wealthy property owners in the town of Killington....either locals, or loyalist weekenders from metro areas. These people are smart, savvy, and involved in the town government. SP Land's primary objective is to develop a BASE VILLAGE. Guess who they need to go through to approve that? The Town. By cancelling the bond passes, these guys shot themselves right in the foot, right off the bat. BIG MISTAKE!!!

But Bob Peters (whom Patrick and I met at Jackson Hole) has a lifetime JHMR pass with much cleaner language and he thinks the Killington bond passholders don't have much of a case in court.

This topic has gotten alot of play here:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/16360-kill ... asses.html

I admit it...I took a sick pleasure in playing devil's advocate and stirring the pot. It didn't take much, and even with the pot stirring I managed to elicit only one or two truly hardcore lifetime passholder responses. I thought it was funny that one passholder thought I was a shill for Killington.

I also addressed the point you quoted here from Epic Tony...didn't even get a bite.

Bottom line is the lifetime passholder group is a small and somewhat insulated group. They are understandably upset with this development. But the concept that the average skier is going to rise up against Killington and stop going there because they support and empathize with this group is ridiculous, as is the thought that the powerful lifetime passholder posse is going to twart all of POWDR/SP's plans to their own detriment.

By October, this will not even be an issue.
 
Patrick":ftgn93jq said:
JimG.":ftgn93jq said:
By October, this will not even be an issue.
You're right, the issue will be "Why hasn't Kiilington openned yet"!!! :twisted: :lol:

Great minds think alike.

If POWDR/SP wants to make a big PR splash, that's exactly what they will do, open at the earliest possible date...but I'm not holding my breath.
 
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