Killington November 1st 1987

Kevin · May 30, 2003

<IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2474.jpg" ALT="Upper Cascade November 1st 1987"> <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2475.jpg" ALT="Killington November 1st 1987"> My first Killington pictures.

Frankontour · May 30, 2003

Hey Thanx Kevin ! this is 2 real nice pics ! it's sad I just began to take some pics in skiing 3 seasons ago. Now, I can't go skiing without my camera !!!!

Kevin · May 30, 2003

Frank: I was 15 years old when I took these pictures and just skiing with a camera for the first time. In 1998 I started skiing with a DV-camera from Sony that fits into my pocket. The big problem with taking lots of skiing pictures and video is finding people(family and friends) that want to see endless pictures of snow and skiing! The anonymous post from last night was me trying to find a way to compress a page of my Killington stock report that shows September 24th 1992 snowmaking on Double dipper. I still can't figure out how to do this but I am new to scanning pictures. I do not know if I am the only one to save trail maps and brochures, but I have lots of then from 1987 to the present. I am the pack rat of skiing literature and would like to share this with anyone who is interested. I just do not know how to reduce the size of these items and post the images. It would be nice to have a seperate area where people could post trail maps and brochures of areas still operating (not like NELSAP) to see how things have changed in the last 15-20 years.

Jonny D · May 30, 2003

I would definatley be interested in seeing older trail maps, though I can't help you on how to reduce the size. If you can find a way, please post!

Patrick · May 30, 2003

Kevin, I am also experiencing some difficulties in scanning and having the picture with less than 40k. I find that you lose some of the quality on the original pictures. I have a whole bunch of old brochures from Killington and elsewhere (I used to save everything from ski shows, etc.). I guess I have older stuff than you Kevin or or maybe you Frank... I was 22 in 1987. Jonny, I have some early 80s maps here, but it would definitely be a challenge to scan it. I will try to scan stuff, but not this week... I have done enough scanning this week. Anyway, I think I will try to post some of my best skiing pics once a week or every two weeks. That will keep this site busy and us thinking about skiing during the summer. The pictures I took at Killington in 1984 was the one of last trip I took picture with that camera. The last one was a three day trip in March 85 at Ste.Anne. It was in my backpack when it hit a tree while I was skiing in the woods. I presently still ski with the same camera I got in 1986, althought rarely.

Kevin · May 30, 2003

Perhaps the web site administrator would want some of the older ski area trail maps and brochures that I have. I did not just save one from each year, but more like 3-6. I have 6 1988-89 trail maps (for instance) and enough ski area brochures to have broken two draws at home. I am more than willing to donate some of this stuff to anyone who would want it. Killington and American Express made a nice ski guide for the resort for the 1993 ski season with descriptions of each trail and the history behind each of the six mountains (got about a half dozen of these) I am actually starting to throw some of this stuff away because it takes up so much space. I started skiing in 1983 so most of my stuff is from then on.

Kevin · May 30, 2003

Frank: You said that you wanted to ski Gaspe this year so check out this website: www.ssd.noaa.gov/ps/snow/ click on: United States graphic click on: Latest You will see the current snow cover map for the Unites States and Southern Canada. Notice the little spot of white in Gaspe around the area of Mt Cartier. I guess that there is still some snow left there, how much is anyones guess. I just thought this might be a little help since I dont think that there are any webcams in that area.

Tony Crocker · May 30, 2003

You might want to check out <A HREF="http://skimaps.com" TARGET="_top">http://skimaps.com</A>. Its server is down now, but I think they have a lot of maps. They might be interested in your old ones. I have a rather extensive collection myself, but in order to confine it to one file drawer I usually throw out old versions when I pick the most recent. The exceptions are when the new ones are not as informative. There is an unhelpful trend of fewer areas publishing both length and vertical of their lifts on their trail maps (Mammoth is an example). Vertical was crucial to my personal archive <A HREF="http://bestsnow.net/vertfeet.htm" TARGET="_top">http://bestsnow.net/vertfeet.htm</A> for the 17 years before I bought the Vertech watch. I remember going into the marketing offices at Vail and Kirkwood, pleading to get the vertical of each lift. Inclusion of both length and vertical allows one use the ratios for areas which one has not skied in order to estimate steepness, as the relative trail designations are nearly useless for this purpose. Stoneham had groomed double black diamonds, an oxymoron IMHO. I have followed this thread with some interest, because I have skied Killington 3 times, all in conjunction with business trips that never occur midwinter. On Oct. 28, 1988 I claimed my only previously unskied month. Only Upper Cascade was open. Nov. 7, 1993 was most impressive. Upper Cascade, Bunny Buster and Superstar were all open, ech served by its own lift. After warming up in the morning on the first two, I spent the whole afternoon on Superstar, getting a far better workout than I would on any early season snowmaking trail in the West. There are seasons where it dumps in the Sierra in November, but I am unwilling to commit in advance and not quite flexible enough to go after it on short notice. April 29, 1990 had Superstar, Upper Cascade/Downdraft and one run off the Outer Limits chair. The latter 2 runs were groomed and at that pitch like skiing in glue. Only the skier-packed bumps of Superstar were any fun in that kind of snow. You will not get intermediates out to ski groomers when it's that warm unless you can salt the snow. In the late season the quality difference between eastern and western skiing becomes a yawning chasm. Compare last weekend at Mammoth to the mid-March week I spent in the East earlier this season. If I lived back there, I doubt I would do lift service after mid-April, though I would certainly return to Tucks. Left Gully on April 28, 1990 was not dissimilar to Wipe Out/Drop Out last weekend. The November 1993 trip was for a job interview in Concord, N.H. All the Killington locals told me I would be nuts to leave California.

Kevin · May 30, 2003

<IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/your_image.gif" ALT="Skiing and golfing together May 21st 1994"> Here is a picture of me teeing off on the Killington golf course after skiing in the morning.

Kevin · May 30, 2003

<IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2476.jpg" ALT="Killington golf & ski May 21st 1994"> Here it is

Frankontour · May 30, 2003

I come soon... look at the No-bulls report this evening !! all answers after writing my report !

Frankontour · May 31, 2003

Hey folks, this is my ski report for today <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> <A HREF="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/16/2477.html?1054335252" TARGET="_top">http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/16/2477.html?1054335252</A>

Frankontour · May 31, 2003

Well, the conversation looks to continue nicely. Ok, for reducing the pics without lose quality, there is actually many programs that can do that, but it depends of which ones you have on your computer. I don't have Photoshop, but I use ACD See which was included with my digital camera. This is really super, using it with Microsoft "Photo Editor" and "Paint". You can take Microsoft "Word" to play the role of ACD See, but this is enough long with it. I just have Windows 98se , on my lap top, but I think Photo Ed and Paint should still exist on the more recent windows (??). If you have an article with a photo, by example. You select only the photo with photo ed and you save it. If it's over 40kb, the trick (if you don't have photoshop or ACD See) is to open it with Paint and just draw a little dot, with the pencil, on a black place on the pic. It reduces the kb size of the pic by 50%. I use this trick for about 40% of the pics I post on the No-bulls. (the other ones are under 40kb). It's sure I really use ACD See to have the height I want, for the pic, but you can take Microsoft "Word" to reduce the pic at the size you want, without lose quality at all. After have the size you want, you "print screen" and copy into Photo Ed. After that, you select what you want and you have your pic. (hmmm, well, I think it makes it complicated, when explained in words, although it's very simple in fact and it just take 1 minute by pic.) Anyway, if you have some pics that you're not able to reduce enough to put them on the board, just send me them by e-mails and I will reduce them for you (and let you put them on the website for your credits...) frankontour502@yahoo.com <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> As you can see, it's easy to put some large pics here, even passing under the 40kb. (pic from today on the very lower part of the snowpatch) <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2483.jpg" ALT="Frankontour on LG"> Effectively Patrick, you have a little bit of advance on me, for the trail map collection. I began skiing on january 1988, at Mont Olympia and I hated skiing, telling I wanted to never ski anymore in my life. A hot chocolate paid by my father changed a little bit my way to see the sport. (I was 7) The second time I went, I think it was just for hot chocolate that I went skiing, but I didn't got one. The third time, we tried Mt Avila. My run into Pronto / Bobcat is actually my 4th most important run in my life and it's the only one of my ultimate top 5 runs which doesn't concern "Orford's Chevreuil", so it's really there that I loved to ski and Mt Avila is still mythical for me 15 years later. So back for the trail maps, my oldest one I still have is a 1986-87 trail map of Tremblant (I wonder why I have a trail map from before I began to ski ?). Until 1990, my old trail maps are enough ugly, cause when you're under 10 years old (and hyperactive), it's tough for the paper. For Nelsap, you know that there is a good collection of pics of still operating ski areas. It's really incredible to see the trail maps of 1930 of Cannon Mountain and things like that. The photo of Sugarloaf before the ski trails is also unbeliveable !!!! Betsy (from Nelsap) already sent me this pic from Mt Orford, in the early 50s. It's fun to see the Magnum trail (at this moment "45"). It looked a little bit like "Contour" and it wasn't reaching the top of Giroux Peak. <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2484.jpg" ALT="45.... now known as Magnum"> I have some old pics found in many places + the statistics of every ski areas in QC in 1972, but it would be really cool if we could build 1 page of old pics & trail maps for the ski areas that we're used to ski now. It would be fun to see their evolution, that's a fact !! Thanks Kevin for the Chic-Choc link. Actually, there is certainly still a huge ton of snow. The only time I went in the place, there was almost only Mt Albert that got snow, but we talk here of HUGE amount of snow and we were in mid-JULY. Mt Jacques Cartier is not the best to keep snow, I think... it's really Mt Albert with its north face. And for Tony, Stoneham are more than just "moron" in my mind. They closed on april 6, this year. I understand Ste-Anne and Stoneham are owned by the same group (resorts of the canadian rockies), but it's a shame to close so fast for a ski area that could easily close in may without pushing too hard on the snowmaking and that is just beside over 1/2 million people. At least reach Easter !! About skimaps.com, I'm not sure if that still exists. I went few times in the last weeks, looking for a trail map and the website wasn't accessible all that time... oops. Anyway, I'm going now to start some pages of historic pics for few ski areas we talked often here !

Frankontour · May 31, 2003

BTW, the Magnum trail is now 4-5x wider than at that moment and look like that : <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2485.jpg" ALT="Magnum now">

Patrick · May 31, 2003

Hi Frank, skimaps.com until I heard from Tony, I also believe it didn't exist anymore. The last time I visted it was maybe 10-11 years ago when I was still in University. (Tony mentioned tonight at it was down). I have a mountain of ski stuff here in Ottawa (stuff I accumulated since the mid 80s - and more older stuff in my mom's basement in Montreal). There is somewhere a trail map from Sutton 70 or 71 (I was 6yr, and old enough to collect stuff) and a couple from Tremblant from the early 70s. What is NELSAP? A few years ago when my dad passed away, I tried to find old pictures of my dad when he was a ski instructor (50-early60s). I was able to find some pictures at Gray Rocks. He also taught at Glen, but the mountain didn't have any old pic. Same thing at Tremblant, which is surprising when you think about it. The son of the owner of the ex-Villa Bellevue mentioned that my dad was on their flyer. For old stuff, we might want to check out the Canadian Ski Museum in Ottawa (you have to be a member to have access to their stuff). There is also the New England Ski Museum at the base of Cannon. Never continued my quest of old pics or buddies of my dad's, there is so much time to spend in a day. I will also start playing with my scanner. I have a few pictures from the last time we went to France. We skiied 4 days - but the pics are between 100 and 250k (I just checked).

Frankontour · May 31, 2003

10-11 years ago ???? Skimaps.com existed in 1992 ? (ish, I went for the first time on internet in 1995 or 1996... and after that, I just went back on 1999. We have internet at home since feb 2000. If you have a Sutton trail map of the 70s, this is the kind of thing that I would pay to have (I should not tell you that lol), so if you could scan it, it would be {INCREDIBLE !!!!!!!!!!} NELSAP is the "New England Lost Ski Area Project". It's a website dedicated about the history of skiing and of lost ski areas. They have something like 500 lost ski areas just in New England. Almost nothing in Quebec. I sent them information on about 75 lost ski areas in Quebec, few years ago, but I didn't have enough information on each resort to it worth to put all online. (more, on the 3 Quebec resorts they put online, there is a HUGE mistake about Mt Pontbriand which they say it's the same mountain that Mt Snow, although I saw both them and hiked few times Mt Pontbriand and I got the confirmation of the founder of Mt Pontbriand that it's not the same ski area... but NELSAP don't want to change it... don't know why). But they have an INCREDIBLE webpage, where you can find some incredible pics, like the aerial view of Sunday River in the early 1970s and many old old old trail maps of resorts in the New England. This is the website : www.nelsap.org This is the wonderful link : <A HREF="http://www.nelsap.org/skihistory/skihistory.html" TARGET="_top">http://www.nelsap.org/skihistory/skihistory.html</A> By the way, when I passed to a little Quebec ski museum at Mont Tremblant in the mid 90s, There was a trail map of Mt Saint-Sauveur in 1949 exposed. I looked at it few minutes and back home, I draw it, with the name of the trails... it's enough amazing to see how it was different, but similar in same time ! For the pics, you know, when I get my pics from my digital camera, they're between 400kb and 700kb and it's not a problem to change them for some 35kb pics as you see on each of my posts <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> So 100-250 is a real joke when you know the tricks !

Frankontour · May 31, 2003

About one topic of Tony, I had for a long time problems to find the vertical of the sides at Killington, but I finally found it in my old trail maps (1990-91). So this is the vertical of each sides of the mountain. I hope this can be useful to someone... as it's not indicated anymore on their trail maps. Old Sunrise : 1411' high Bear Mountain : 1184' high Needle's Eye (double) : 1160' high T2B : 3181' (according to the map, but it seems me that the gondola don't reach the very top of the peak ?) South Ridge : 825' high Snowshed : 535' high Skye Peak (side of Superstar) : 1400' high Skye Peak (to Bear Mountain) : 1515' high Killington Peak (old double) : 1648' high Glades : 630' high Snowdon : 1124' high Ram's Head (double chair higher than now) : 1360' high. It's funny, I'm so used to just see Superstar and Rime (+ Cascade now) at Killington that I almost completely forget about all the South (or east) side. A question for you : why did they closed all the lower part of Sunrise ? It was a good vertical and it was the lowest point of the mountain. Was it completely flat, boring or something like that ? I always wondered that ??

Patrick · Jun 1, 2003

A quick message (not much time tonight). skimaps.com (I might be mistaken here), but it used to be ftp site where you could upload and download ski maps. When I was in University (85-92 - not only one diplomas guys!!!), I used to read the rec.skiing newsgroup. Weather Underground was also around back in the early 90s. The home internet was rare then. The old gondola had a stop at the top of Skye Peak, but continued to Killington Peak. Like a previous message said, the old K maps were topographic maps, I believe they changed that around in the late 80s. NELSAP. Sorry I didn't recognize the acronym. Lost ski area in Quebec, I skiied some of the following when I was a kid. Mt. Echo near Sutton, Mt.Faustin that was eventually merge into Mt.Blanc. Mt.Alouette in Ste.Adele. Sun Valley near Val-Morin, Mont Castor where the autoroute 15 ends outside Ste.Agathe. All these disapeared in the 70s. There was a place called Jasper in St.Donat in the 50s. I can understand why there isn't much in Quebec (it would never end) + plus it is not called NEAQLSAP. There also le 'Mont Laval' which also had night skiing - let's me look this up...vertical. 18meters with 3 lift, I remember there were 2 t-bars and one rope-tow The Sutton ski map for many years was in small booklet (maybe 1.5 x 3in) with a whole bunch of information. All of those are in Montreal. One thing I did today was sorting pictures from this winter (baby and family, trip to France including some skipics). Not much to look after other things with was not house related.

Frankontour · Jun 1, 2003

I'll try to be also quick, after the long emotional message (other page discussion). Skimaps worked in normal internet like any site, but it's true when I sent about 50 trail maps of the province to the website, he asked me if I had a FTP address or something like that (I'm not really good for this kind of things) anyway, finally, they just never put the maps on the website ! lol 7 years in University : damn, I'm here since 3 years and I'm not able anymore... I don't want to imagine after 7 ! Yep for the old gondola of Killington, On the trail map, it looked to have 2 major curves. I don't know if it was only on the map or for real, but that's strange. I only know the poma of Burke Mountain to have a major curve. About the lost ski areas you went. All them were alive in my guide of 1972. Mt Echo closed in 1978 and the main double is actually the lift #5 of Sutton under l'"Alpine". I'm still not sure between Sun Valley and Mt Alouette which one is which one. One is almost in Front of le Chantecler (on the other side of the I-15) and the other one is I suppose near kilometer 77 (after the exit to Val Morin). This last one closed with the highway, as the I-15 literaly passes where the parking was and the old lifts, still visible, arrive at something like 50 feet of the road. I know Sun Valley was open in the mid 80s, cause it's on one of my Ski Canada old magazines. About Mt Castor, it closed after the 1989-90 season, I still have it on my first list of all the ski areas of the province in the magazine "L'actualité Skimag". Mt Laval --> LOL yep, there was waterpark there, after the history of skiing, but it closed few years ago. Never seen it, despite I live in Laval (not in the same sector... it remains a 400 000 persons city) And finally, Mt Jasper. This is a real one. 1250' high, but not developped, cause bad timing and bad lucks, I think. It's actually the mountain just behind La Reserve and it's the same "massif". The ski area was on the other side, though and it's still possible to see the old t-bar line, but it's extremely tough to see it. In fact, In 13 years of looking, when I go to Garceau and la Reserve by the road 329, I've seen it only twice. And the more incredible is that I've seen it the first time : dec 29, 2002 and the second time : dec 29, 2002. I didn't find them all the other times I went this season and it find it really weird that I've seen it 2 times on 100 and both the same day. If all the Massif of la Reserve was exploited (we talk here of Mt La Reserve, Gaudet, Jasper and Ouareau), it would be the second biggest ski area in Quebec after Tremblant, as it's supposed to be 1700 feet high, for max vertical ! Oh no... that wasn't so quick finally... but this was my last tonite !

Patrick · Jun 1, 2003

Quick... I have to wake up tomorrow morning. K gondola charged direction at two loading/unloading points on the way to the K peak. I remember when the #5 when in at Sutton, your information is correct about being the Mt.Echo lift. Alouette and Sun Valley are both seen from the 15. If you remember were the last toll on the 15 was (near the Ste.Adele waterpark, just before the 'montée Séraphin exit), then you can see it. If you are going north, then it is on your right, you can see the mountain very clearly from there. A few houses are now build on that mountain. SunValley: The last time I looked, you could bearly side the backside which almost reach the 15, the forest back in, but I believe the t-bar towers are still there. I believe it was still opened when the 15 was built there, the parking and lodge was on the other side. The area had a tyrolean type look to it (I sure I have something in Montreal) It about 500 meters passed the Val Morin/Val David (just before the curve) exit where there the overpass above the 117. S**t, I have to get up tomorrow morning.

Killington November 1st 1987

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