Killington, VT 10/29/2005 - Opening Day

Looking at the pictures and reports of Killington, it is hard to believe it is October. I mean it looks like mid winter a far cry from the usual eastern November openings of Machine made snow mixed with dirt and rocks. It would be interesting to know if this amount of snow has set any October records as I cant recall a opening weekend in October with this much snow and no artificial mixed in.
 
I wonder what kind of melting will go on during the week, and if any other areas might open for midweek skiing. I had wanted to goto Killington on Tuesday or something, this re-closing is terrible. Also, what happened to the trail-by-trail report on Killington's website? All I'm finding is the number of trails, but not any specifics

Sven
 
mid-week is 100% impossible for these areas right now, not enough skiers and no lodging or vacations booked. a few die hards may take a vacation day or they get a few locals or folks fortunate not to be weekend warriors. wildcat made out like a bandit this weekend from a profit point of view (personal conjecture based on what i saw) but would be dead throughout the week. melting at lower elevations of wildcat will be substantial this week and they will likely loose some of their more heavily used lower trails such as polecat and lynx. at this point, i'd say not a chance for next weekend unless a random surprise dump happens.
 
it's total crap that they won't spin at least one lift mid week... i've tried to look at it as open minded as possible...from looking at the pictures , it looks to me like they did very little grooming... and if the reason is becasue they do not want to pay payroll to do that, i say, no problem....i'm wondering if they opened up this weekend with full skier services ( like cafe and rentals and all that ) if they don't want to pay payroll to do that , i say , no problem... spin one lift and put out the disclaimer- no skier services, no frills , no nothing- just lift access... i don't even care if they shut down 99% of whatever likely phony number of trails they were claiming were open on sat and sun... one trail and one lift... they should at least provide that for season pass holders if they can legit do top to bottom... if they have no way to ski to the bottom , i have no beef with them shutting down the whole thing... but short of that, i think it's bullcookies not spinning mid week regardless of the number of daily cash tickets sold... it turns this past weekend into a partial p.r stunt. i knew wildcat was a stunt, But i expected better from K.
 
folks? what's the beef? three days ago killington said this weekend was a no go then changed their minds. this weekend looked doubtful for kmart right up until friday. just be glad you got some november turns guys. K isn't going to spin one lift with no services because as a company they have a certain minimum standard to uphold, partially to create a certain image and partially because some skiers count on those services and will get pissy without them. the lower trails are likely to wash out this weekend any ways from what i saw at the cat today.
 
I might be wrong here, but I believe that K only open so that they wouldn't look face to tiny Wildcat.

As for Wildcat, from what I heard from someone in the chair that worked there, this weekend seem to have been a one weekend wonder and they will not open again until their schedule opening.

This lady was saying that there were more cars in the parking lot on wednesday after the storm than during most weekdays last year.
 
This lady was saying that there were more cars in the parking lot on wednesday after the storm than during most weekdays last year.
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the amount of packing due to skiing i found on the wildcat trail simply blow - me - away. that stuff had been skied heavily for several days to get that packed. not surprised to hear a large number of people were hiking wednesday.
 
I'm with joegm on this one. Mammoth is in very thinly populated Mono County. jonny and patrick notwithstanding, how many non-season passholders do you think ski there midweek after late April?

Mammoth does exactly what joegm recommends. They ran 4 lifts midweek and 8-10 weekends in May, 3 lifts midweek and 4-5 weekends in June. Last year they needed to start remodeling the Main Lodge and thus had no food service at all in June/July. Even May weekends you'll see some cafeteria operations stripped down with fewer staff and just one or two food stations open instead of 4-6. But the things that matter, terrain access, grooming, salting and park maintenance, were all done in a first class manner until they shut down July 4.

Killington should run K-1 and Glades midweek. If people want to do laps they stay up high on Glades. With just K-1 open you hold down density on the lower mountain so it doesn't get too chewed up and hope you get enough snowmaking to keep it alive. One cafeteria open, probably base of K-1.

This is not rocket science. But if you've run your company into the ground and have to manage based on daily cash flow instead of the long term reputation of your enterprise.....

Pardon the rant, but I've been an L.A. Dodger fan since age 5, partial season ticket holder since 1979, and there are some analogies between Frank McCourt's management style and ASC's. He's been nicknamed "The Boston Parking Lot Attendant" by one of the L.A. Times sportswriters.
 
This is not rocket science. But if you've run your company into the ground and have to manage based on daily cash flow instead of the long term reputation of your enterprise.....
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excellent observation. any leader in the industry not having to operate based on daily cash flow would likely have stayed open mid-week. but we know killington's sitution is precarious financially and ASC is anything but a leader in the ski industry any more.
 
Wow! You guys are awfully tough on an admittedly poorly run operation. Heck, they did manage to open up and provide what more than a few folks have said was the best opening ever. In October no less, and after a management decision to shorten the season and not open in October anymore. But they did anyway.

And you guys are still picking on them. Other than Wildcat, was any other eastern ski area open?

Glad none of you are my boss :roll: .
 
JimG.":1qplj558 said:
Wow! You guys are awfully tough on an admittedly poorly run operation. Heck, they did manage to open up and provide what more than a few folks have said was the best opening ever. In October no less, and after a management decision to shorten the season and not open in October anymore. But they did anyway.
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We might be a bit hard on Killington, but I think they opened due to the overwhelming october snow they received.

Why so hard of them? I guess some of us are a bit like Killington. Killington had been for so many years running on that October to June, etc etc, Skiing until you had enough, etc etc lines, regardless if it wasn't the case anyone. I believe for some of us, our change of heart will happen only after many good actions by the mountain, not just one or two. That's unfortunate, but the reality. Yes, they definately did a good job making it happen for this weekend. I congratulate them for it, but on the same note they have to continue if they wish to regain the goodwill and respect for some of the diehard skiers.

I was at Wildcat, but it isn't hard to see why it was there best opening ever for Killington. I believe this was probably the best october skiing in the East period (for any areas with snow last week, from Sutton-Jay-Cannon-MRG-Wildcat to Kmart), regardless if the mountain was open or not.
 
Patrick":16d8jywu said:
We might be a bit hard on Killington, but I think they opened due to the overwhelming october snow they received.

Why so hard of them? I guess some of us are a bit like Killington. Killington had been for so many years running on that October to June, etc etc, Skiing until you had enough, etc etc lines, regardless if it wasn't the case anyone. I believe for some of us, our change of heart will happen only after many good actions by the mountain, not just one or two.
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So you're saying they shouldn't get as much credit because the snow was natural and not man-made? I don't get that argument at all.

And while I agree that K was once the king of early and late season, why do you feel they owe you many times over because that isn't the case anymore? It never will be the case anymore, period. What does that have to do with the past weekend?

Listen, I'm no K lover. I'm not going to tell you I like the recent management decisions. But I acknowledge and appreciate the FACT that K had the balls to spin their lifts when nobody would have been surprised if they didn't. And as for being shamed by Wildcat, what does that say about all the other areas you mentioned that got snow and didn't open their lifts? Sure, hiking is great, but I'd rather ride a lift on opening day and get some mileage on my ski legs.

Patrick (and many others), I understand the bad feelings towards K, but let's give credit where it's due.

And before we kill them for not staying open for midweek this week, take a look here:

http://www.killingtonskiclub.com/toys/webcam.asp

Pretty tough to open when the snow is mostly gone.
 
JimG.":3eyqwfjh said:
So you're saying they shouldn't get as much credit because the snow was natural and not man-made? I don't get that argument at all.

And while I agree that K was once the king of early and late season, why do you feel they owe you many times over because that isn't the case anymore? It never will be the case anymore, period. What does that have to do with the past weekend?

Listen, I'm no K lover. I'm not going to tell you I like the recent management decisions. But I acknowledge and appreciate the FACT that K had the balls to spin their lifts when nobody would have been surprised if they didn't. And as for being shamed by Wildcat, what does that say about all the other areas you mentioned that got snow and didn't open their lifts? Sure, hiking is great, but I'd rather ride a lift on opening day and get some mileage on my ski legs.

Patrick (and many others), I understand the bad feelings towards K, but let's give credit where it's due.

And before we kill them for not staying open for midweek this week, take a look here:

http://www.killingtonskiclub.com/toys/webcam.asp

Pretty tough to open when the snow is mostly gone.
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Sorry Jim, you might have misuderstund my point.

I do give them credit for opening and they did a great job. =D>

I was commenting on your comments about why being so hard. I tried to answer your questions on why some of us might be so hard on them. I have always said in the past didn't necessarly make sense.

Yes, I have been a critic of K in the past, but as long as their talk reflect their actions, I have no problem with that.

For the other areas not opening, I was just saying that it was the best skiing in October for them, but that doesn't make skiable enough to open. I believe the most of the other areas received less snow than K and W. Sutton definately had snow and I saw some great skiing pics from last week, but the 50cm wasn't enough to withstand one day for lift-serviced skiing.

EDIT: PS. I didn't second guess them not spinning the lifts this week.
 
Patrick":10jl1ysk said:
Sorry Jim, you might have misuderstund my point.

I do give them credit for opening and they did a great job. =D>

I was commenting on your comments about why being so hard. I tried to answer your questions on why some of us might be so hard on them. I have always said in the past didn't necessarly make sense.
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I probably did; I didn't mean to sound like I'm coming down on you either.

My real point is that we ought to applaud K for running the lifts and leave it at that. They've made some bad (from our point of view) management decisions over the past few years and we all complained loudly. Now, they make a good move and open when they could have blown it off...and yet the sense I get is that we're still complaining.

So, if we're going to complain anyway, why should they care about making good or bad decisions? If we complain no matter what, they may as well just do what they want and not care about us.

I'm sure my ranting must have something to do with my job...just haven't figured it out yet :lol: .
 
I think what we're looking for is flexibility. Killington showed some by opening last weekend. The SoCal example last year also shows that you can continue to run midweek on a stripped-down basis. And with that much natural base as a start, surely the odds of blowing snow on top of it and then packing/grooming it the odds of it sticking through November (and helping the rest of the season for that matter) must be way higher than in a normal year when they blow snow over bare ground.

If Killington does not reopen until Nov. 11, the message skiers will get is that only in extraordinary circumstances will they be flexible. There is a 1.5 million population base in VT/NH for midweek day skiing, and it's probably double that if you throw in the closest parts of MA (Springfield) and NY (Albany). I just don't buy it that they will be losing money if they run on a skeleton crew basis the next 2 weeks.

The ongoing solution to the shoulder seasons (beating my dead horse again) is to tweak an upper lift or two so that K-1 can be used to transport to them. Then you spend the same $ to make the same snow you do now and get a few more weeks of skiing by avoiding early season washouts and delaying late season meltdowns. But this solution requires a modest investment and some advance planning...
 
Tony Crocker":20oyvg8c said:
If Killington does not reopen until Nov. 11, the message skiers will get is that only in extraordinary circumstances will they be flexible. There is a 1.5 million population base in VT/NH for midweek day skiing, and it's probably double that if you throw in the closest parts of MA (Springfield) and NY (Albany). I just don't buy it that they will be losing money if they run on a skeleton crew basis the next 2 weeks.
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I think that's the message they've been sending for 2-3 years now, I doubt it will change. The fact that it was near 70 today and alot of the snow melted won't help. And the long range indicates they'll be extremely lucky to reopen on the 11th.

Employment issues won't be a concern if the weather says "no snowmaking".
 
the base cam says it all, kmart has nearly nothing left at the k1 base area which is not too surprising. i suspected the snow down low would have lasted slightly longer given my experience at the cat on sunday, but the temps this week are as abnormally high as last weeks snow fall was. no chance kmart could be open top to bottom this week. and argueing for a non-top to bottom option is beyond a waste of time, we all know kmart's "top to bottom on the k1" requirements and that is all well and good. cheers to jimg, very well put. congrats due go out to kmart for doing the unexpected though strongly desired reguardless of whether it was reactionary or not. upper elevations likely still retain snow, though how much and for how long is the question. seems like a nice base was built and well packed down, hopefully some earned turns can result this weekend.
 
I haven't seen the cams, but I reviewed the weekly reports I sent to L.A. Times each week last November. All 4 SoCal areas hung in there daily for 2 weeks of mostly warm weather, even with only 10% of terrain, until they ran out of snow around Nov. 20.

I can accept that if the snow is completely gone at the base of Killington and Wildcat they have to close with current lift configuration. But I'm a little bit surprised that a 2-foot October snowfall would survive longer in Southern California than in Vermont.
 
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