Kirkwood, CA 3/9/2023

[EMSC]

I sure as %$&*@# wouldn’t consider the Palisade/Telluride

Interesting reaction. The whole stealing thing is only with the very low end trims that are still using a mechanical Key vs a FOB/push button start. Apparently plenty of those cheapest possible cars/SUV's were sold in the past decade (a couple million over a long time period), though I haven't seen a keyed vehicle in person in quite some time outside of ~20 year old vehicles. I could be wrong, but I'd think tseeb isn't looking for bottom of the barrel level keyed vehicles. BTW all of at least Hyundai (not sure on Kia) vehicles are eligible for an immobilizer to be installed, though not sure of the recall, or whatever they are calling it (not technically a warrantied defect, the key works as advertised), rollout timelines.

Given the durability argument, my gut instinct is that tseeb should limit his search to Honda and Toyota,

My experience is that those two brands are somewhat overpriced due to that brand perception (at least in Colo they are). IMO it's all about the individual models of various manufacturers; as certain designs & factories have a big influence on quality and durability - frequently at least as much so as the corporate parent name. We have a 286K miles VW commuter car sitting out front for example (2003 model year). Another manufacturer that just a few years ago was the target of massive derision/ire emotions, yet that has/had zero to do with the car that was and is still sitting out front that has run and run and run for two decades.

If you couldn't tell, I'm not that into brand loyalty (or derision) for the sake of brand loyalty. No brand is perfect and doing so over time is even more difficult, even if you follow the 'Toyota way'. Just my 2c.

 

[ChrisC]

Interesting reaction. The whole stealing thing is only with the very low end trims that are still using a mechanical Key vs a FOB/push button start. Apparently plenty of those cheapest possible cars/SUV's were sold in the past decade (a couple million over a long time period), though I haven't seen a keyed vehicle in person in quite some time outside of ~20 year old vehicles. I could be wrong, but I'd think tseeb isn't looking for bottom of the barrel level keyed vehicles. BTW all of at least Hyundai (not sure on Kia) vehicles are eligible for an immobilizer to be installed, though not sure of the recall, or whatever they are calling it (not technically a warrantied defect, the key works as advertised), rollout timelines.


My experience is that those two brands are somewhat overpriced due to that brand perception (at least in Colo they are). IMO it's all about the individual models of various manufacturers; as certain designs & factories have a big influence on quality and durability - frequently at least as much so as the corporate parent name. We have a 286K miles VW commuter car sitting out front for example (2003 model year). Another manufacturer that just a few years ago was the target of massive derision/ire emotions, yet that has/had zero to do with the car that was and is still sitting out front that has run and run and run for two decades.

If you couldn't tell, I'm not that into brand loyalty (or derision) for the sake of brand loyalty. No brand is perfect and doing so over time is even more difficult, even if you follow the 'Toyota way'. Just my 2c.

The Kia Telluride? If you like paying $2-10k over MSRP go ahead. $50k++ I could not think of a worse investment. It's way overvalued. Stupid purchase. Nice car, but.....c'mon...it's now a luxury SUV?

I'd love to have a Genesis GV80....but I cannot justify the price. I'd rather go heli-skiing.

My current car is a 2021 Winter purchase in Naples FL - a 2-year-old 4Runner Limited with 8k mileage. Buy cars from wealthy cities where people don't drive them or get bored.


EV -let the early adopters make it affordable.

 

[EMSC]

If you like paying $2-10k over MSRP go ahead.

Who's paying over MSRP for nearly any car anymore??

Basically every single dealer in Denver Metro at one point (brand didn't matter) was adding a $5K "Market Adjustment" fee to new cars. I haven't checked all of them, but also not aware of that being charged anymore around here. Most have switched back to the annoyingly dumb ~$1-2K for 'paint protection' and other equally bogus fees on top of MSRP, but those can always be negotiated away eventually, though a PITA to deal with dealerships on. Still very tough to negotiate below MSRP for the moment, but I suspect that will begin to realign itself in another ~6 months too.

Just wait till car manufacturers try to sign people up for subscriptions on your car; once most regular maint goes away with EV's. It's literally in discussion in basically all mfgs right now (can we charge people monthly for activating the seat heaters? Using navigation? how about the lane keeping or anti-collision sensors/cruise control? etc...). Maybe they only make the highest end trim for each model (standardized mfg process), then charge you a 'base' level initial buyers fee and then upcharge the heck out of anyone each month who actually wants to use any of the features that are physically built in. Naturally the monthly fees over time will be way more than the upfront cost to buy a higher end trim of today. Something like that is almost certainly coming in a few years, barring new regulations or something.

 

[tseeb]

Quite a number of decent vehicles that would fit tseeb's needs as a gas powered vehicle I would think. Examples beyond those above include Ford Edge, Hyundai Palisade/Kia Telluride (basically the same vehicle), Mazda cx9, etc...

The Kia/Hyundai three-row SUVs have good reviews and I know people who have and like them, but AWD versions are rated 19/25/21 MPG, the same as latest Pilot.

I'm probably limiting my choices to Honda and Toyota as that is what my mechanic specializes in. He probably can handle Subaru, Kia or Hyundai, but he really knows when/where to only use Honda parts vs. aftermarket. Hopefully I can get Costco pricing or find some other way to get below sticker without add-ons.

Picture copied from Facebook is top of Wall lift 3 days ago. You really had to keep your tips up two weeks ago.

When I was at Heavenly earlier the same week, I caught a ski after loading Gunbarrel as there was not a lot of clearance and I didn't immediately pull my tips up (on 189 cms). Tip pulled ski behind me and it stayed on, but didn't feel good. At the top there was a guy missing one ski and another missing both, waiting for them to be sent up.

 

[ChrisC]

Kia Tellurides are notoriously over MSRP. Especially in states like Colorado.

Just wait till car manufacturers try to sign people up for subscriptions on your car; once most regular maint goes away with EV's. It's literally in discussion in basically all mfgs right now (can we charge people monthly for activating the seat heaters? Using navigation? how about the lane keeping or anti-collision sensors/cruise control? etc...). Maybe they only make the highest end trim for each model (standardized mfg process), then charge you a 'base' level initial buyers fee and then upcharge the heck out of anyone each month who actually wants to use any of the features that are physically built in. Naturally the monthly fees over time will be way more than the upfront cost to buy a higher end trim of today. Something like that is almost certainly coming in a few years, barring new regulations or something.

I was annoyed my newer 4Runner did not really have AC seats - but whatever. It's broken. But I like to be cold when driving.

At least I have AC when I drive down to Silicon Valley. My cars are always questionable by employees, investors, VCs, partners, etc.... I'm a car nightmare until someone says - stop! buy something newer.

 

[Tony Crocker]

However, I am not a car guy.

Yes, that is another one of my vices. And an expensive one in my younger days.

I went without a car in college so my dad agreed to buy a 1971 BMW Bavaria and I got it 3 years later. I had it for only 15 months before repainting a mountainside with it in Orange County. Once I became a skier I bought the first 1978 SAAB Turbo. That was an amazingly versatile ski car for its day. But by 1981-82 it was a reliability nightmare compounded by incompetent local mechanics. That car was in the shop or disabled 160 days and I bummed rides for most of that excellent ski season. I sold it in 1983 and replaced with a Toyota Supra. Nice car, but not good in snow at all and impractical once married with a kid. So next in 1985 came the aforementioned Subaru Legacy.

In the 1990's and 2000's I was getting more value out of my cars:
1) inherited 1996 Honda Accord driven to 120K miles
2) 1991 Toyota Previa AWD driven 11 years and 175K miles
3) inherited 1997 Toyota Camry driven to 140K miles
4) 2002 Acura MDX totaled by Andrew in 2009 at 80K miles (upscale version of tseeb's Pilot)
5) The champ was my 1995 Nissan Maxima driven 26 years and 275K miles

In retirement I'm indulging the vice again. But I think the Cayenne at 12 years and 106K miles should have a long way to go given that it's exclusively driven on freeways and long trips.

EV -let the early adopters make it affordable.

I plead guilty with the 2016 Model S. The tech improved sufficiently over the next 3 years I felt compelled to upgrade. It had a resale guarantee but still under half what I paid, so no question an expensive 3 year indulgence. The 2019 Model S was purchased during a period of price weakness and I believe will prove an excellent value if it has decent longevity, especially with the free supercharging.

 

[flyover]

Interesting reaction. The whole stealing thing is only with the very low end trims that are still using a mechanical Key vs a FOB/push button start. Apparently plenty of those cheapest possible cars/SUV's were sold in the past decade (a couple million over a long time period), though I haven't seen a keyed vehicle in person in quite some time outside of ~20 year old vehicles.

My point is NOT that a brand new Telluride or Palisade might be easy to steal.

Let’s review. Hyundai/Kia sold a “couple million“ cars in the U.S. that really could not be simpler to hotwire. They are so simple to steal because a technology that had been industry standard for many years was omitted from the ignition system. The fact that those same models were sold in Canada with the industry-standard technology strongly suggests it was omitted from the cars sold in the U.S. for reasons having to do with cost rather than due to negligent engineering. How-to-steal-Kias-and-Hundai-videos went viral on social media and millions of consumers have been screwed by either (1) having their cars stolen, (2) by having their insurance rates substantially raised or having their insurance cancelled altogether, (3) having the blue book value of their cars substantial depressed, or, in some cases all of the above. Hyundai/Kia’s response has not been a recall to make the cars at least average-difficult to steal, but instead to give police departments around the country thousands of steering wheel locking devices to hand out to citizens with vulnerable cars and to the say that ought to be enough.

So my point, for those consumers looking for a new car, is that Hyundai/Kia have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted in the design and manufacture of their products, and more importantly cannot be trusted to right their wrongs when publicly called out. I’ll say it again: I wouldn’t buy a car from these clowns. That’s not an “interesting reaction.” it’s common sense.