Lift Ticket Pricing During A Bad Season

[jamesdeluxe]

I never understood why most resorts take such a monolithic approach to pricing ("here's our weekend price, and here's our weekday price"). It would seem to be smart, in addition to print coupons, to use the internet to quickly drum up business, especially during periods when turnout is low.

Maybe I'm not aware of other ski areas taking this approach, but I've noticed that Jay Peak is aggressively offering online discounts, even more so than in previous years -- sending e-mails to 242ers with 2 for 1's, a $39 deal, lodging promotions, etc. Are other resorts doing the same thing, especially given how bad things have been weather-wise so far?

Personally, I think it's a smart idea, but I'm wondering if these kind of promos help or hurt a resort's bottom line or the reputation it's trying to build. Do people see a discount and think "sweet, I'll spend my time and money there (instead of another place) because it's less expensive" or "wow, they must be really hurting to have to do this... I'd rather spend the extra $20 at the other place because I know I'll get what I pay for." For example (and JoeGM mentioned this in a recent post), Stowe is notorious for not giving any lift ticket deals because, well, it's Stowe.

For the record, I fall into the first group, and am always swayed by a good marketing/promotional campaign. There has to be a pretty compelling reason for me to pay full price, unless it's already reasonable.

 

[JimG.]

Maybe I'm weird, but I try to go to the places with the best value regardless of price because I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for.

So, if the snow is good at Stowe I'll pony up whatever the ticket rate is as opposed to going to another resort with lesser conditions that's running a promo.

That doesn't mean I'll pass up a freebie (I get quite a few, or I'll use my past employment at Hunter to get a deal), but I don't go looking either unless conditions are sweet everywhere (rarely the case).

 

[ricks]

Many, many years ago, I booked a trip to VT from north to south. Was going to ski Sugarbush, Pico, Bromley, Stratton, and Snow. Kinda stay away from the BIG guys for a change. The snow that year was really bad and Sugarbush had only 3 beginner trails open on the lower mountain. They were still charging full price for their lift ticket. I changed my plans and went to Hunter and Killington. I lost a good bit of money on the lodging up at Sugarbush in the exchange but at least we were skiing at Hunter instead of sliding in the mud at Sugarbush. If they would have had discounted the lift tickets at the bush we probably would have gone and toughed it out but know that we weren't paying much for the experiance while still paying for their food and supporting the local economy there. The moral of the story, 25 years later, I have never been to Sugarbush because of this little encounter. I know it's petty, but there are so many great areas to ski, why bother with one you had a problem with in your lifetime. I'll never be able to ski all the mountains on my list, so one less on the list doesn't hurt me, just them.

 

[Marc_C]

The moral of the story, 25 years later, I have never been to Sugarbush because of this little encounter. I know it's petty, but there are so many great areas to ski, why bother with one you had a problem with in your lifetime.

You realize that your encounter 25 years ago was also 4 owners ago as well, yes? Sugarbush is a great ski area and vastly improved from what it was then. Not going there now is like not going to New York City 'cause you didn't like Ed Koch.

 

[Spensar]

The moral of the story, 25 years later, I have never been to Sugarbush because of this little encounter. I know it's petty, but there are so many great areas to ski, why bother with one you had a problem with in your lifetime.

You realize that your encounter 25 years ago was also 4 owners ago as well, yes? Sugarbush is a great ski area and vastly improved from what it was then. Not going there now is like not going to New York City 'cause you didn't like Ed Koch.

Sugarbush aside, the basic point is valid. There have been posts this year about next to no runs open and hills charging full price.

People aren't impressed and if it's really bad the customer feels gouged. That's a business decision for the operators. Gouge now to maximize short term profit and you will goodwill and some business. Question for the operator is if they feel that business is replaced easily enough and it's not important.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Once you've paid transportation and lodging, the lift ticket is a marginal cost. And the difference between an expensive lift ticket and a cheap one even less. So at that point I vote for doing the research and figuring out which place has the best skiing. That may still be the cheap place, if the high priced ticket is to pay for non-skiing amenities you don't care mcuh about.

And it's really dumb to hold a grudge about some bad ski experience 25 years ago. If I had that attitude I would never have skied Mt. Baldy after I blew out an ACL on their rentals in 1976.

 

[Sharon]

Jay is making out better because of the discounted lift tickets. The idea is to bring more people to the resort. It isn't just the lift ticket they spend their money on. They buy food, rentals, neck gaitors, drinks at the bar etc. Who knows, maybe they will buy a pair of skis (my friend bought skis at Jay Peak's ski shop one year). Jay offers the half priced lift ticket with a seasons pass from another mountain. We went up there many times to take advantage of that and certainly spent $ on other things. The idea is to get the people to the mountain.

 

[riverc0il]

Mad River is also discounting lift tickets. only $29 with the entire mountain open, not a bad deal. mad river did a similar promotion a few years ago in january when we were in that ultra cold snap in which even the metro areas were not going above zero for weeks.

this may or may not be a good idea and it is hard to measure the success and evaluate what specific variable was the deciding factor in increased attendance (was it the cheaper lift ticket or the fact that many mountains are almost 100% open?). jay peak recently offered a two fer deal for friday only if you printed out a copy of their home page. the question is did the promotion draw in enough skiers to off set the lose of revenue due to lift ticket dollars cut in half for many transactions. ski areas could easily loose their shirts on these deals if only skiers that would have skied there any ways take advantage and not enough skiers that would not have gone without the lower price show up.

the amazing thing is current deals are not being offered because conditions are bad or because it is a "bad season" but rather because not enough skiers are showing up. it is the typical "no snow in my back yard" scenerio in which ski areas would rather a foot of snow fall in the metro areas and completely miss the ski areas than have even two or three feet fall on the mountains.

the deal hunters are not buying the extra stuff at the ski area like food, clothing, rentals, ski tune ups, etc. deal hungry skiers (i know, i spent many years as a deal oriented skier before becoming a pass holder and i know throw money around on ski area food like no one's business) bring their own lunch and live for the thrill of paying as little as possible. it almost becomes a game. it adds up too.....

Once you've paid transportation and lodging, the lift ticket is a marginal cost. And the difference between an expensive lift ticket and a cheap one even less.

if you combine lodging, sometimes you narrow the gap. but a small part of a big number is still a big number. the pricing difference at 2k vert mountains in new england is as much as $30+ between full price day weekend tickets, not even talking about bargains and discounts. transportation is going to be $30-40 for most metro skiers round trip which is 1/2 the cost of a lift ticket at many areas. throw in a lodging deal and the cost of a lift ticket is still 1/4 of the total price, this is not a small or marginal amount of money, especially if you ski every weekend. while i agree paying for quality is important, you can often get comparable quality at other ski areas for significantly less. i still actively pursue discounts such as having a mad card for MRG and i have banked three days at stowe for $39 each later this season. industry folks on nelsap forums have suggested discounts are industry standard and essentially regular full day ticket prices subsidize the discounts. if that is the way the industry wants to play, take it to the bank and go after skiing at the price that ski areas are offering. i wouldn't drive out of my way or away from quality skiing for discounts... but if i was looking at ski areas in the spine of the greens from bush to jay and had a choice and all at the same driving distance, pricing could be a substantial factor, especially if conditions are similar up and down the spine (which they currently seem to be).

as far as jay... there is a reason they are offering the discount and that is they are hurting for skiers. last week's powder day saturday? ski on lifts all day, not a single wait not a single line. ouch.

 

[awf170]

as far as jay... there is a reason they are offering the discount and that is they are hurting for skiers. last week's powder day saturday? ski on lifts all day, not a single wait not a single line. ouch.

On the other hand I bet they had a record number of hot chocolate sales that day.

 

[Tony Crocker]

conditions are similar up and down the spine

Very logical to be more price sensitive in this situation.

In SoCal I'm used to dealing with a smaller number of ski areas that are very different from one another. The decision is always based upon conditions. Does Mammoth have any real competition for drive-up weekend business? Only in seasons like this one.

When you fly to Utah or Colorado for a week, lift ticket differences are a very small part of the picture. Most people will choose where to ski based upon terrain, snow, resort ambience, etc. There is price sensitivity, but most of it is in lodging cost.

Given location, riverc0il's ski decisions nearly always make perfect sense to me. But I still think he should change his location :wink: .

 

[riverc0il]

Given location, riverc0il's ski decisions nearly always make perfect sense to me. But I still think he should change his location :wink: .

if skiing was everything, i would in a heart beat. your recent suggestion of the pacific northwest makes an enormous amount of sense for the least amount of cultural adjustment, especially after seeing this report on T4T. but skiing isn't everything to me, let alone the only thing. but i will have plenty of destinations to travel to once i can bank some travel money.

 

[ono]

everybody gets pissed when they pay full price (sometimes a lot) for a bad ski day- i do.

a bad season is a bad season. however, we must remind ourselves time over that the ski business is an AWFUL business to be in the first place.
especially in the east.

so as much as we get pissed about paying a lot for marginal skiing one day, or even the good part of a season, we must remind ourselves we'll pay the same price for great days on a great year- that charging full price is necessary in the bad times to ensure our favorite hills are open for the goods during a great snow year.

last time i checked, most eastern areas don't really make out like big oil companies as far as the bottom line goes...

just my .02

 

[riverc0il]

that charging full price is necessary in the bad times to ensure our favorite hills are open for the goods during a great snow year.

i disagree with this reasoning and premise though i do generally agree with your final point. it may be a better financial and business decision for ski areas to charge full price even during bad times. as i mentioned above, if ski areas can not reasonably and with some certainty predict that discount prices will actually increase revenues through increased skiers and not just sweet heart the die hards already going to an area, full price is reasonable and somewhat necessary for ski areas.

but falling lock step into line with business decisions (especially those business decisions that charge more than what a product is worth) is not the way of an educated consumer. as a skiing consumer, i refuse to pay full price for terrible conditions. if i am desperate, i will pay full price for marginal conditions, and will generally happily pay full price for great conditions. i am not the target market for most ski areas though, and i would not expect pricing structures to be based on my demographic.

but back to the other point, who is really paying full price regardless of how good the conditions are? i can't remember the last time i paid more than $50 for a lift ticket.

 

[Spensar]

Once you've paid transportation and lodging, the lift ticket is a marginal cost.

True enough in a lot of situations. It also depends on the trip and the situation. With a family my lift ticket costs are always X3. Since we had a local MSSI membership Jay only cost $76 CDN total for three of us to ski each day. Even without the MSSI deal, Jay tickets could be had for under $40CDN per day each.

I won't sacrifice a trip to ski at el cheapo cruddy hill but all things being relatively equal a swing of $30+ per day x3 is significant.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Nice report and beautiful pics on T4T. Note that while most people in SoCal think Seattle weather sucks, the poster implied (as I have said before) that most of you New Englanders will find it an improvement.

I've read enough here to realize that most of you easterners wouldn't like California that much. But it's hard to see why you wouldn't be happy in Seattle or Vancouver (I don't want to forget you equally suffering eastern Canadians).

The pricing during bad seasons is an interesting economic topic. Lift ticket sales do demonstrate some sensitivity to conditions. I suspect a very modest price cut might pay, especially if nearby competitors aren't doing it and the area trying it gets the word out. It might even enhance the area's reputation for the future.

 

[Sharon]

Now Jay Peak is offering a "free" seasons pass when you book a 4 day 'getaway' during their 'value season'.

That is a fantastic marketing tool. B/c a family or couple will spend more than $1000 for that visit, plus, when they come back to use their seasons passes, they will again book lodging and eat and spend money in the ski shop. That deal won't hurt Jay. It will bring in more $.

 

[zamboni]

As a small business owner, don't ever believe a company crying poor mouth(or even a customer) If it's a bad season, part of their duty during successful seasons it to invest when bad seasons happen (just like a drought or prolonged rain during lawncutting season) One thing that I've learned from skiing is that ski mountains have souls. Even during bad years with poor conditions I'll take Cannon,MRG, Burke and Wildcat ANYDAY over the other lying, overpriced and arrogance laden places. My soul belongs on a powder day at Burke or a scratchy day Cannon. I'll take soft snow at Wilcat's edges in the AM and ice during the rest of the day over the ultra groomed bordom at Sunday River 45 minutes away. Keep you eyes and hands on your wallets and go where your soul takes you. A few years back there was a PBS special of NE skiing with a focus on Cannon. A guy was interviewed about how he feels when he sees his favorite mountain from a distance upon approach. "I get so excited it makes me want to pee." I've felt that way when I was 23 and I feel like that at 37. I would rather pay $54 at Cannon than a discount at Stowe. Stowe does have great terrain and quick lifts, but the soul is being quickly sucked from it. Plenty of $$$, but no soul. It sucks to pay hard earned $$$ for not so good conditions, but man does it feel good to be at MRG and feel the soul of it. Talking to skiers at MRG is very much part of the experince, you can't do that at the bush and Stow. BTW, I can't believe how much the bush charges. Go for the soul. Cheers, John.

 

[Admin]

Now Jay Peak is offering a "free" seasons pass when you book a 4 day 'getaway' during their 'value season'.

We've been running a banner ad for that promotion since Jan. 1.

 

[tirolerpeter]

Over the years I have made long drives (from LI,NY) and booked lodging both in nearby Newport and at Jay itself. I have yet to be able to ski there. On our first try, all the lifts were on "wind hold." So, after waiting an hour and a half, we drove up to Canada and skied Mt. Sutton. We had a great time. On day two we waited another hour and a half, and then drove north to Owl's Head. Again, we had a great time. More recently, we booked a long week-end right at Jay. Sure as hell, there was a "cold weather"/wind hold in effect. After waiting till noon on the first day, we left (with a never used credit for our package price) and drove south. First we skied a 4 hr at Jiminy Peak, and then the next day had a great day at K-Mart. It looks now like I will never actually ski Jay since I am moving west in a month or so.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I have to hand it to Steve at JP... I like his style. I wasn't questioning the approach; I agreed with it, and was wondering if other people felt the same way.

Very sneaky how he slips an entire branding treatise into this communication. :wink:

From this morning's 242 e-mail:

Recent chat room mica has questioned the motives behind offering good deals to ski and ride-specifically at those spots offering deals so good, they're to be questioned. While it's nice to see that folks are paying attention, this matter brings up issues about pricing that run near, dear and deep here at Jay Peak. Our position is this. Skiing and snowboarding doesn't have to be something you breach your child's 529 for. It doesn't have to be something that causes the skipping of meals. And it certainly shouldn't be an event limited only to those with tons of discretionary change at the end of each trying week.

Our deals here at Jay Peak, be they day, overnight or something altogether different, reflect the strongest part of our brand. A bs way of saying that the very nature of this place, the part of us that is unrefined, uncomplicated and straightforward, leans toward finding affordable ways to get people out. And to get people up. $39 for a lift ticket, lunch and a carrot to come back? Sure. Ski and stay packages that include slopeside lodging, lift tickets and food for just a bit more than you'd spend on a daily lift ticket at spots who consider themselves captains of industry? Yes. $279,000 for a true ski in/out slopeside condo at a place where the mountain really does still matter. Again, sure.

So while you're sifting through the deals you'll find each week here in the 242, understand that maybe Jay Peak isn't for everybody. We're not for those who care more about the scene than first Tram. We aren't for those who can't make it out of bed on Sunday morning. And we certainly aren't for those who wear their $74 lift tickets like a badge of honor. It's the skiing and the snowboarding. And the snow. But you know that.