Shames Mtn Coop in Terrace BC

[Patrick]

Terrace Standard
September 16, 2009
Co-op idea touted as Shames’ saviour

Terrace Standard - Co-op idea touted as Shames’ saviour
Source: www.bclocalnews.com
Members of the international skiing community are using social networking to try to turn Terrace’s local ski hill into a destination mountain owned by a co-op made up of individual shareholders.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_north/ter ... 46957.html

Visit www.shamesmtncoop.com for more.

There is also a Facebook page.

Shames Mountain Co-op
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 384?ref=ts

 

[Tony Crocker]

The mountain is listed for nearly $1.5 million, and Martin said money from season passholders and skiers come close to covering the operating costs, but is not sufficient to paying back some debt.

The likely motivation for going the coop route. Lesson for the Baldy/Waterman/MRG/Magics of the skiing world: do not take on debt!

In addition, there are 7 flights daily from Vancouver, to the city of Terrace, 30 minutes away.

Any guess what those flights cost? Cranbrook, between Fernie and Kimberley, was supposed to get a much-hyped international upgrade to its airport before NASJA 2006 but did not. Finally there is a connection to SLC with Delta, but it runs Saturday only and they want $1,300 to use it from L.A. I was hoping to use this gateway for my annual Canadian trip next season, but with that price I will obviously stick with Calgary or Kelowna.

The bottom line is that a ski area of Shames' size and location will be dependent primarily on the locals. I hope there are enough of them to make the co-op fly.

 

[soulskier]

Mr Crocker I would respectfully disagree and point out that if the global ski and snowboard community purchase a share, they will want to ride powder while checking on their investment. In addition, Shareholders will talk up their investment. I predict skier visits go up substantially as a result of the Co-op movement.

 

[Admin]

I've got to side with Tony on this one. Terrace is three days from nowhere:

Given the cost and logistics of getting there, any out of town shareholders might make it up there one trip a year, at best. The local population is completely inconsequential. Why do you think that they had the place listed on the market for a paltry CAN $1.5 million? Because they weren't making any money because there's no one there. Three times nothing is still nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I hope it works. I just don't see a lot of potential for success.

 

[Admin]

Given the cost and logistics of getting there, any out of town shareholders might make it up there one trip a year, at best.

Quoting myself here, just for giggles I just priced a flight from Salt Lake City for a week in February. The cheapest round-trip fare I could find is $1074 round trip and that requires an 18-hour outbound travel day! I'll admit that for a relatively insignificant $120 more I could get that down to 6h 50m with an annoying two plane changes, but you get my point. This isn't the kind of place that an out-of-town shareholder will be heading to every weekend, or even once a month. Maybe they'll get there once a year, but anyone with that kind of dough will spend it on a heli elsewhere in B.C.

From other places (and I also checked from surrounding airports in any city with multiple departure points):

LAX: $986 (9h 30m)
SFO: $939 (6h 25m)
SEA: $813 (5h 15m)
YVR (Vancouver): $588 (1h 55m non-stop)
DEN: $1026 (12h 10m)
JFK: $1101 (13h 15m)
YYZ (Toronto): $1290 (7h 50m)

For that kind of coin -- and in some cases for that kind of time -- you could be skiing in Niseko. It just screams "non-starter" to me.

 

[q]

Case closed.

 

[Patrick]

Case closed.

Not so fast. Shames is a hidden gem. No one knows about this place, it gets a tiny bit of press on the Canadian Ski media and zero south of the border. Heck, if people are willing to travel from the UK to ski at Kmart or Tremblant, I am sure they would be a market for Shames.

The place has very minimal infrastructures which minimize cost. There is only one chair and one T-bar (one beginner tow too) and amazing slack and backcountry. You don't need to attract the masses to make it happen and profitable.

LAX: $986 (9h 30m)
SFO: $939 (6h 25m)
SEA: $813 (5h 15m)
YVR (Vancouver): $588 (1h 55m non-stop)
DEN: $1026 (12h 10m)
JFK: $1101 (13h 15m)
YYZ (Toronto): $1290 (7h 50m)

I just checked the price from Ottawa, it was right now at $1400...there is no way that price is going to be that high when the seat sales hit. Lucky Luke went 2 wks for 2 years in a row, pretty sure he's looking at returning this year. If flights were that price, he wouldn't be return every year. Other Eastern Canadians make the trip...imagine if people actually know about the place. We aren't talking about a mega resort that needs ton of cash to break even.

Yes, it's the middle of nowhere, however they are 2 daily flights from Vancouver with Air Canada plus there is the Hawk Air flight which is an airline that served northern BC communities. Kitimat close by (The airport is the Terrace-Kitimat airport) is a company town and one of the major ALCAN (Aluminium) plants. These jobs are high paying jobs.

Prince Rupert, a beautiful town, has no longer a ski area is maybe 180km away. The drive between PR and Terrace along the Skeena Valley is really spectacular.

Shames mountain started around 1990. At Smithers (300km east), I was speaking to an American from NY that was a ski instructor at Smithers in the 70s for a few years. He was pretty aware of the history of Smithers. He mentioned that when Shames opened, Smithers got hit by about a 40% drop even if Shames is 300km away. There is a potential to attract people up there, if not for Shames alone, a combo between Shames-Smithers. Besides Shames, Smithers ans scenery, there is heliskiing operation at Bell II, backcountry skiing around Bear Pass near Stewart BC. Possibilities and fresh tracks are endless.

Here are a bunch of links on Paradise on Earth.

Lucky Luke Terrace 2009 movie online on ZS:

http://www.zoneski.com/films/watch/e634 ... rrace-2009

Shames is Powderville - A Guide to Shames Mountain Backcountry by LeeLau
http://www.doglotion.com/shames-powderv ... ackcountry

Here are a few links of TR gone by LeeLau.
http://www.leelau.net/2009/centralbc/be ... 009_03_08/

Here are Lucky's TRs from Shames, the backcountry and Larsen ridge (south of Terrace):

Shames backcountry 7-19 feb 2009
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boa...php?f=3&t=7730

NorthWest B.C. feb 9th to 23th (2008)
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boa...php?f=3&t=6516

Larsen Ridge cabin, Terrace B.C. 9-11 feb. 2009
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boa...php?f=3&t=7747

Here are some TRs from Doug MacKenzie

Shames, BC - Feb 20-23, 08
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6524

Smithers, BC - Feb 25-26, 08
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6526

Shames, BC - Feb 27, 08
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6528

Lucky Luke's intial request for Shames info. A few good links in there (hoping they aren't broken).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2306

 

[jamesdeluxe]

if people are willing to travel from the UK to ski at Kmart or Tremblant, I am sure they would be a market for Shames.

For Brits who fly to Kmart or Tremblant, skiing is a secondary concern. They're going to those places to party (and I've got pages of anecdotes about what happens when packs of limeys are let loose on an unsuspecting foreign country) and, more likely, because they're getting a cheap deal -- why else would they choose New England over the Alps? The Shames Co-Op plan is aiming for a completely different target audience, and it'll cost a lot more to go there.

 

[Patrick]

if people are willing to travel from the UK to ski at Kmart or Tremblant, I am sure they would be a market for Shames.

For Brits who fly to Kmart or Tremblant, skiing is a secondary concern.

Don't know Terrace nightlife. O Well the guy that I was in the chair with me at Whiteface was Tony's age didn't look like a drunken Brit party animal that you see in the Alps.

The Shames Co-Op plan is aiming for a completely different target audience, and it'll cost a lot more to go there.

Agree, however (on a Canadian standpoint), flying to Terrace or Prince Rupert is cheaper that going to Alaska. Cheaper to flight and much cheaper once there...regardless of the exchange rate.

 

[Admin]

Not so fast. Shames is a hidden gem.

Nobody's taking that away from the place. That's not the point. The problem is that it's hidden by geography, not by lack of quality.

Heck, if people are willing to travel from the UK to ski at Kmart or Tremblant, I am sure they would be a market for Shames.

As James pointed out, that's for entirely different reasons, not the least of which is price point.

I just checked the price from Ottawa, it was right now at $1400...

Thanks for helping to prove my point.

Kitimat close by (The airport is the Terrace-Kitimat airport) is a company town and one of the major ALCAN (Aluminium) plants. These jobs are high paying jobs.

And what happens when those jobs dry up, as the did at ALCAN near Chicoutimi? When I was up there all the locals did was cry about how everyone was leaving the area because with ALCAN's woes there was nothing else to do but sit on the front porch and drink.

He mentioned that when Shames opened, Smithers got hit by about a 40% drop

So, a total of 11 skiers moved from Smithers to Shames?

 

[Patrick]

Heck, if people are willing to travel from the UK to ski at Kmart or Tremblant, I am sure they would be a market for Shames.

As James pointed out, that's for entirely different reasons, not the least of which is price point.

And I mentioned that the Brit skiers I've seen on this side of the pond are generally not the drunken French Alps type.

I just checked the price from Ottawa, it was right now at $1400...

Thanks for helping to prove my point..

I got $890 for SLC for the small days. I guarantee you that Lucky's doesn't pay that amount when he flies there. For myself, these trips like flying into Bozeman are the perfect time to use my FF points.

Kitimat close by (The airport is the Terrace-Kitimat airport) is a company town and one of the major ALCAN (Aluminium) plants. These jobs are high paying jobs.

And what happens when those jobs dry up, as the did at ALCAN near Chicoutimi? When I was up there all the locals did was cry about how everyone was leaving the area because with ALCAN's woes there was nothing else to do but sit on the front porch and drink..

Point taken, however not sure of the status of the Kitimat plant. Deep Sea port close to Asia markets versus Chicoutimi situation. If I'm not mistaken, the Saguenay has a number of aluminium plants and is much bigger area.

He mentioned that when Shames opened, Smithers got hit by about a 40% drop

So, a total of 11 skiers moved from Smithers to Shames?[/quote]

Many people didn't believe that the MRG Coop was viable. No or little snowmaking, difficult market, etc. If I'm not mistaken, skier visits at MRG is greater now as people talk up the area.

Shames isn't MRG. The market and population in the area is lower, but there isn't any local competition (I know someone going to mentioned the attraction due to the concentration of ski areas). The cost is lower and the total infrastructure is lower. MRG has a series of buildings, 4 chairs, etc etc versus very few small building at Shames and 1 chair and 1 t-bar and no need for artificial snow. Yes, out-of-towners need a plane and forth out $$$ to get there.

How much revenue those the mountain need to run in the black? There are a bunch of very low key ski areas in the World that survive...I believe that Shames has what it's takes to survive and thrive. Heck, if Clubfields in Kiwliand can be sucessful, I don't see why this cannot work.

 

[Admin]

Many people didn't believe that the MRG Coop was viable. No or little snowmaking, difficult market, etc.

And 12 million potential drive-up customers. From a source near and dear to you at Stats Canada, the population of Terrace fell from 12,109 to 11,320 between 2001 and 2006. Over the same timeframe the population of the entire region fell from 19,980 to 18,581. Not only is that one incredibly underpopulated region (that as pointed out before, is days from anywhere) but that trend doesn't exactly indicate a healthy economy, either, and if ALCAN's the primary employer around there, well...'nuf said.

FYI, wanna drive? It's a mere 15.5 hours from Vancouver...when the roads are clear! Have fun dodging moose and elk for nearly 1,000 miles. :lol: http://local.google.com/maps?f=d&source ... e=UTF8&z=5

Shames isn't MRG. The market and population in the area is lower

Hell, I'll say! By the numbers above, MRG's potential market base is 64,582% of that of Shames!

but there isn't any local competition

Good thing, for if that miniscule market were split there would be only one remaining player. Witness the stupidity of the Quebec government putting a ski area on every street corner in the 1990s, and see how many are left standing (or how many were sold for pennies on the dollar).

Heck, if Clubfields in Kiwliand can be sucessful, I don't see why this cannot work.

One word: population.

Geez, you in your line of work should be the first person to understand this! I'm afraid that this is one of those situations where emotion is running rampant over logic.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I'm afraid that this is one of those situations where emotion is running rampant over logic.

I'm always one to side with emotion, but I just can't see how the fly-in co-op idea will, euh, fly. Best-case scenario: a powder hound who just won the lottery or inherited a pile of money, wants a playground to share with others, and can afford to lose several million buys it outright. Similar to what everyone hopes will happen to Magic VT and dozens of other places.

Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Patrick]

Heck, if Clubfields in Kiwliand can be sucessful, I don't see why this cannot work.

One word: population.

Geez, you in your line of work should be the first person to understand this! I'm afraid that this is one of those situations where emotion is running rampant over logic.

My logic is sound. There is little activity to do in the Winter time. Terrace was voted as hockey town on a Hockey Night in Canada contest.

What is the population of New Zealand? It's smaller than the Toronto GTA. 15 hour drive from Vancouver, yes, but who the heck is going to drive from Vancouver to Terrace. People that don't flight take the ferry up the Coast (no north-south road along that amazing coast line). That is an amazing flight btw.

The numbers you've quoted are only partial as they follow Census Subdivision lines.

29k between Terrace and Kitimat + Prince Rupert at 13k (80km away ) = 44k
Plus I'm not even going toward New Hazelton (halfway) and Smithers-Houston area (a few thousand there). You want remote (although the drive is probably shorter from Vancouver) and isolated, try Bella Coola. Terrace isn't remote compared to many Canadian communities. The whole area of the Skeena-Bulkley is huge, but population is concentrated along the Yellowhead highway which is the only east-west link to the ocean up of Vancouver is almost 100k.

The Yukon's population is 29k, yet it has one ski area. There are other remote places with similar population numbers in the Alaska islands that have ski areas. The James Bay Hydroelectric complex in Quebec had it's own ski area when the dams were being built.

but there isn't any local competition

Witness the stupidity of the Quebec government putting a ski area on every street corner in the 1990s, and see how many are left standing (or how many were sold for pennies on the dollar).

What???? Every street corner??? Regardless of the numbers involved (very small - less than 5% of entire province's ski areas maybe), it was a regional development thing pushed by local authorities. Not saying that I agree with that policy, but there are only a handfull of those out of over 90-100 ski areas at the time, right?

 

[Admin]

My logic is sound. There is little activity to do in the Winter time.

Snowmobile. Ice fish. Drink. (Actually, the last one is redundant to the first two.)

What is the population of New Zealand? It's smaller than the Toronto GTA.

Why in the hell would you compare NZ's population with Toronto's? By that logic, let's include Tokyo and Beijing in the New Zealand club ski fields potential market. :roll: Let's compare drive-up to drive-up, OK? Because say what you will, any co-op structure will require a drive-up market to survive. Any fly-in is gravy, especially at those flight costs.

15 hour drive from Vancouver, yes, but who the heck is going to drive from Vancouver to Terrace.

Once again, you unwittingly make my point for me.

The numbers you've quoted are only partial as they follow Census Subdivision lines.

29k between Terrace and Kitimat + Prince Rupert at 13k (80km away ) = 44k
Plus I'm not even going toward New Hazelton (halfway) and Smithers-Houston area (a few thousand there).

Oh, what the heck...let's include New Hazelton and Smithers-Houston, too, and let's give them 10,000 to be on the safe side. That still gives MRG a potential market that's 22,222% larger. Puh-leeze. And while MRG may have slightly greater operating costs, they still barely turn a profit with a potential drive-up market of 12 million. What's a hill with one chair and one t-bar going to draw from a whopping 54,000 region-wide residents? Even if it's the only game in town (and remember that it's not), it's still only 54,000 people within a day's drive!

The Yukon's population is 29k, yet it has one ski area. There are other remote places with similar population numbers in the Alaska islands that have ski areas. The James Bay Hydroelectric complex in Quebec had it's own ski area when the dams were being built.

And neither of them think that they're going to survive by selling co-op shares to people thousands of miles away.

What???? Every street corner??? Regardless of the numbers involved (very small - less than 5% of entire province's ski areas maybe), it was a regional development thing pushed by local authorities. Not saying that I agree with that policy, but there are only a handfull of those out of over 90-100 ski areas at the time, right?

And just how many remain now? :roll:

 

[Patrick]

What is the population of New Zealand? It's smaller than the Toronto GTA.

Why in the hell would you compare NZ's population with Toronto's? ).

No, the point is that New Zealand population is small - sorry, I didn't mean to say that I was counting Toronto was part of it's market.

Because say what you will, any co-op structure will require a drive-up market to survive. Any fly-in is gravy, especially at those flight costs.

I agree. Drive up market is under 100k if you count the population from Prince Rupert along the Skeena and Buckley valley halfway to Prince George. If you make it out to Prince George (6 hours), add an extra 80-85k.

The numbers you've quoted are only partial as they follow Census Subdivision lines.

29k between Terrace and Kitimat + Prince Rupert at 13k (80km away ) = 44k
Plus I'm not even going toward New Hazelton (halfway) and Smithers-Houston area (a few thousand there).

What's a hill with one chair and one t-bar going to draw from a whopping 54,000 region-wide residents? Even if it's the only game in town (and remember that it's not), it's still only 54,000 people within a day's drive!)

Smithers is bigger than Terrace and there are many neighbouring communities close by, but that is besides the point. I agree that the Coop needs to be based on local membership, however a strong input from the outside would be even better. Take a quick poll and asked how many skiers/boarders have ever heard about this place? Extra skiers cash and publicity from the outside would definitely benefit the place.

The Yukon's population is 29k, yet it has one ski area. There are other remote places with similar population numbers in the Alaska islands that have ski areas. The James Bay Hydroelectric complex in Quebec had it's own ski area when the dams were being built.

And neither of them think that they're going to survive by selling co-op shares to people thousands of miles away.

No, but it's only to show that a ski area in a small community, regardless on who buys shares, is feasible. I think the current owners want to sell and are looking for people to takeover. If no individual is willing to come at bat, why is the idea of a group of skiers in form of a Coop such a bad thing (regardless of where they live)? Heck, George Gillett owned the Montreal Canadiens and he was from Colorado.

What???? Every street corner??? Regardless of the numbers involved (very small - less than 5% of entire province's ski areas maybe), it was a regional development thing pushed by local authorities. Not saying that I agree with that policy, but there are only a handfull of those out of over 90-100 ski areas at the time, right?

And just how many remain now? :roll:

Not sure know many they were and which ones? Very little ski areas and I believe they might still all be open except one. Where is Frankontour when you need him?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

What???? Every street corner??? Regardless of the numbers involved (very small - less than 5% of entire province's ski areas maybe), it was a regional development thing pushed by local authorities. Not saying that I agree with that policy, but there are only a handfull of those out of over 90-100 ski areas at the time, right?

And just how many remain now? :roll:

Patrick beat me to the question... will you post this question on Zoneski or should I? Better if you do it... my Quebecois needs work.

 

[Admin]

The poster child for that situation was the region south of Quebec City toward the Maine border. The province funded construction of no fewer than four ski areas within perhaps 25 miles of each other in an woefully underpopulated (and unemployed) region, giving birth to perhaps the most unintentionally funny ski area name out there (La Crapaudiere...oh, never mind, there's always Bad Gastein). Of those only one -- Massif du Sud -- remains. IIRC they even bought one of the others just to close them to avoid splitting the business.

 

[Patrick]

So, L'Orignal, Crapaudière and MdS were all government start up project?

I believe that Mont L'Orignal is still going.

Right or wrong...

I believe that Mont Edouard and Pin Rouge are the others (not close to each other at all), correct? But it's true that the Quebec government had stakes at one point at Tremblant, Ste-Anne, Orford and mayeb a few others. Tremblant was going under and the government took control. Not sure what is the story in the other place. I know my ski history and stuff related to population and markets, but my knowledge of the details how some ski areas were started is lacking.

 

[Admin]

So, L'Orignal, Crapaudière and MdS were all government start up project?

I believe that Mont L'Orignal is still going.

Right or wrong...

I believe that Mont Edouard and Pin Rouge are the others, correct?

There are many others besides those.