This is a comment I've heard about Telluride.
Some truth unless you can handle the Palmyra hike or brave the Bear Creek sidecountry.How Many Days to Spend at a Ski Area
- Thread starter Tony Crocker
- Start date
Some truth unless you can handle the Palmyra hike or brave the Bear Creek sidecountry.
ChrisC
Well-known member
I agree. It is really more akin to staying at a remote lodge for cat or heli-skiing.
La Grave has a similar vibe, and I found Gressoney in the Monterosa region to be comparable as well. They all share those characteristics: remote locations, small-group camaraderie, inclusive meals and access to huge mountains with big lines. Andermatt, Engelberg are much larger versions.
I think the old 'ski-week' is just becoming a relic in modern society. Europe still tries to preserve it - inns in Germanic areas. (Lots of lodges in Zermatt were at 4/5-night minimums, similar in Austria -- all during high season).
This is a comment I've heard about Telluride.
Yes. Telluride offers an incredible town and setting, but the mountain layout is one no modern ski planner would ever design. It feels like it was built specifically to torture snowboarders with its endless traverses and catwalks. Skiing-wise, it's somewhere in the 3-4 day category, but could extend to 5 days due to travel or non-ski activities (hikes, cross-country, Lizard Head ski-kiting, Ouray ice-climbing, Moab). At least every other year, we add a day at Silverton. It's one of the few places that don't mind going out at 10/11am in the spring, scheduling calls whenever, doing an afternoon hang out with bands at Goronno or Chair 8. Nor do I use any wearable to track vertical - mostly forget. Plus summer is busier (festivals, more visitors, concerts, tax revenues, etc.). Few ski towns (outside Euro Alps, Queenstown) have busier summers than winters, like Telluride. Jackson & Tahoe....maybe some others get close: Aspen. Bend/Park City are small cities/suburbs.
It's similar to Jackson Hole in that regard with its Grand Teton setting. Or Crested Butte, CO - nice town + good mountain. (Even more apt to Crested Butte, since the town veto-ed its expansioin on Snodgrass/Crested Butte North. Telluride has 2-3 unrealized ski pods, some approved - that sit ignored/undeveloped. CB and Telluride need them)
But there are very, very few ski areas in the USA/Canada that I might classify IMHO as 5-day Mountains (unless combined with others):
- 5 days: Whistler, Park City, Vail, Mammoth, Aspen (with all 4)
- 4 days: Palisades (Squaw + Alpine), Breckenridge?, Steamboat? Heavenly?
I'll first comment that 5 days for ChrisC is about 150K vertical. Accepting that premise I don't see how you can say AltaBird and Jackson don't belong in whatever the top group is, in Jackson's case with caveat that the Lower Faces have acceptable conditions. And I would remove Park City because even though it's huge, a lot of it is not that interesting. Even if you remove the snow conditions bias towards LCC/BCC, I'd rather be skiing at Snowbasin than Park City or Deer Valley for terrain quality.
ChrisC shares the variety/aversion to repetition gene that Liz and I have. I don't think this is typical. Former admin, jimk, Harvey and tons of people I know at Mammoth are perfectly content skiing the same place most of the time. As much as I love Mammoth and know the place like a local, most of my trips there are 2-3 days and rarely exceed 4.
Tahoe, Banff and Jackson are the destinations where summer tourism far exceeds ski visitation. I'm not that sure that is the case for Aspen or Telluride though I know both have strong summer attractions. The way to find out is to compare hotel pricing. Jackson is 3x as expensive for lodging in summer vs. winter.
ChrisC shares the variety/aversion to repetition gene that Liz and I have. I don't think this is typical. Former admin, jimk, Harvey and tons of people I know at Mammoth are perfectly content skiing the same place most of the time. As much as I love Mammoth and know the place like a local, most of my trips there are 2-3 days and rarely exceed 4.
Tahoe, Banff and Jackson are the destinations where summer tourism far exceeds ski visitation. I'm not that sure that is the case for Aspen or Telluride though I know both have strong summer attractions. The way to find out is to compare hotel pricing. Jackson is 3x as expensive for lodging in summer vs. winter.
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I'd want to hit a snowy period to have to be at Park City for 5 days. I'm probably put off by only seeing it in very mediocre conditions though.
If there was a ski area anywhere that I had to stay in for a month on the trot I would nominate Alta/Snowbird. Fresh snow equals happy. No fresh snow equals picking my way down ski lines that are out of my comfort zone without worrying about avalanche danger. It's got to be the planet's gaper skiers lift served holy grail.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Trust me - I didn't really put too much thought into the list of how long to spend at a mountain. In my honest opinion, Whistler-Blackcomb is the only real 5-day mountain in North America.
My point is - to answer Tony's one-off - sure, 3 days is a fine amount of time to spend in Telluride (Palmyra not worth it unless on a pass (effort, time + moguls). Alternatively, Bear Creek is almost 5k, a short hike, and an Alps-like experience/terrain).
But most mountains in the US are not much more than 3-day places if skied somewhat efficiently - even expert ones.
Example: Jackson - 3 days. There are a lot of lapable chairlifts (Its big lines can be skied very efficiently: Alta Chutes, Expert Chutes, Tower Three, etc. - a day if done right. Add gondola/tram big vert laps on day 2. Ski Moran/Apres Vous on day 3, and anything missed. Also, US resorts overly denote runs - one does not need to ski Expert Chutes 1, 2 and 3 or Alta Chutes 0-3 - once or two of each is good enough. Add days for Grand Targhee, Teton Pass (especially with shuttle) and NPs (Yellowstone - snowmobiles).
My idea of efficient skiing below
My math: most ski pods are 1-1.5k vertical served by 5k ft lifts - often high-speed. This means 5 minutes per lift ride and 5 min per run (more like 2.5 min). One should be able to complete 5-6 groomer runs per hour and 3 non-groomed runs (moguls, couloirs, glades, etc) per hour. Typically, I ski 30-40k ft per day, with runs of 20-40, and a 30-minute lunch/transfer. For example, my Les Arcs & Ste Foy day (vertical: 24k & 14.5k, runs: 14 & 8, time: 7.5 hrs, transfer: 30-45 min). Since skiing is such an expensive sport, costs need to be amortized on a per-lift/per-run/per-day basis. Passholders might break even on a per-day basis, but I do well on a per-vertical-ft or per-run basis. If my daily vertical is below 20k, it indicates I am skiing with friends, a weather emergency, hiking to hard-to-access terrain, or in a guided group (Alps, cat, heli) with forced lunch.
I do not recommend the above approach, but at new mountains - particularly larger North American or European resorts - I default to it.
There is an internal joy when I am stuck in a place like Portillo for 3 days where I will ski everything without any planning. Or meeting friends at a smaller Euro area for big-line skiing (Courmayeur, Engelberg, Andermatt). Even with a guide in BC/Alaska.
ChrisC
Well-known member
(Irrelevant to South America, but...)
Alta & Snowbird. This experience has really deteriorated in the last decade. Despite its high snowfall and terrain, there are now simply too many downsides (below) for me. A stop for a day or two on a road trip to Telluride - yes! But a vacation with airfare, car rental & lodging - no, I would rather go to BC/Banff anytime (cheaper, fewer crowds, less traffic, no parking issues).
Alta/Snowbird belong in the category of Pass Resorts/Great Areas that Rock. They are not really ski resorts, and are not set up for multiday ski trips. They are great day hills: Crystal Mt, Alpental, Lookout Pass, Mt. Hood Meadows, Sugar Bowl, Mt. Rose, Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Snowbird, Loveland, A-Basin, Monarch, etc.
I do have one MBA friend who lives in Minneapolis and does 5 days at Alta yearly - same week/same friends. I get that. And Tony's sweet situation.
I just miss the days of cheap ski shop lift tickets, cheap add-ons for Alta/Bird, parking, less traffic, etc. I wonder if Bridger Bowl after Covid/relocations is still fun?
Alta & Snowbird. This experience has really deteriorated in the last decade. Despite its high snowfall and terrain, there are now simply too many downsides (below) for me. A stop for a day or two on a road trip to Telluride - yes! But a vacation with airfare, car rental & lodging - no, I would rather go to BC/Banff anytime (cheaper, fewer crowds, less traffic, no parking issues).
- First, they no longer function as one resort - only if one purchases a $1500 pass or worse+++. Mgt's are fighting. One-day add-ons are no longer feasible. So they are separate mountains; each maybe worth 2 days to ski all the representative lines.
- High, high Powder Panic. Is there a worse place? (Whistler, KT22, ...) All of SLC destroys the mountain by lunch. Sure, sleeper storms on weekdays rule, but weekends/holidays are highly problematic. Everything is tracked - you get one chance at true first tracks. Sloppy seconds are gone by 12noon.
- Lodging. Almost zero, except for a few high-priced slopeside lodges (see Portillo or Valle Nevado). Therefore, forced down in SLC Valley (often covered in winter inversion haze). And SLC still is not as interesting as Denver. It's more like Reno.
- Parking. When a ski area now sells annual parking passes, it's a problem. Why visit when you cannot reliably park and need a reservation and cash$$$
- Canyon Road Traffic. One cannot ski until the end of the day on weekends. Locals state: you just need to live here so you can always leave by 1 pm to ski the next day. Otherwise, it can be a 2-hour commute down the valley.
Alta/Snowbird belong in the category of Pass Resorts/Great Areas that Rock. They are not really ski resorts, and are not set up for multiday ski trips. They are great day hills: Crystal Mt, Alpental, Lookout Pass, Mt. Hood Meadows, Sugar Bowl, Mt. Rose, Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Snowbird, Loveland, A-Basin, Monarch, etc.
I do have one MBA friend who lives in Minneapolis and does 5 days at Alta yearly - same week/same friends. I get that. And Tony's sweet situation.
I just miss the days of cheap ski shop lift tickets, cheap add-ons for Alta/Bird, parking, less traffic, etc. I wonder if Bridger Bowl after Covid/relocations is still fun?
makes bullet points 3-5 above irrelevant to me. Point #1 is actually improved for me because full Ikon is a combined ticket with no surcharge. Thus about half my days in the Ikon era (plus those when Mountain Collective was combined) include some skiing at both areas.
As for point #2, my top powder days at Snowbird in 2006, 2011 and 2013 were a little over 25K vert/15K powder. I knew I would have to look up Adam's Iron Blosam stats to have an apples-to-apples comparison with ChrisC. Adam's record is 42/28 in 2014. More recently he has a 33/14 day in 2024. That's very anecdotal but supports ChrisC's view if other factors were equal, which I don't know. My absolute lift served vert + powder record is 35/18 at Mammoth in 1999, so Adam and ChrisC are on a different level.
True, but the Lower faces are the big exception. That's huge amount of terrain and with no lappable lift skier density remains low, even on powder panic days. Of course the tram line is unacceptable in that scenario so you have to take 3 other lifts.
That is exactly the mindset Liz and I have, but are not able to execute it a ChrisC's pace. It was easy for me to filter my first days at Euro resorts, and there is great consistency in vertical. When we have close to a full day with decent weather and conditions, there are 19 different resorts where that first day was between 24K and 30K. My two upside outliers were 31K at Grand Massif and 40K at Saalbach, the latter with Liz taking the day off and me pushing pedal to the metal. Of course there are lots of places well under that 24K benchmark, but nearly all explained by shortened days due to weather, conditions, travel logistics and/or being tired.
At any rate if a good exploratory day averages 35K for ChrisC and 25K for me, that might inform how many days we might need for adequate exploration of a ski area, Grand Massif being the most recent example.
Yes. I always combine a few days at Bridger for trips to Big Sky.
Note that the advanced terrain that I'm looking for does not include the Bridger ridge. Liberty at Big Sky is good fun at this point after a decade of advanced lessons at Alta, Taos, Wolf Creek, and elsewhere. Haven't been to Big Sky with good enough conditions to venture onto other terrain on the backside after riding up the tram.
Does it include Schlasman's, where you need to have a transceiver? Bridger is a VERY limited area at the advanced intermediate level IMHO. The lower mountain is quite flat and the upper part is technical DFU as well as most of it requiring a hike. Big Sky's terrain distribution is somewhat similar, though the gap is less glaring because it's so much larger. This is another reason I suspect members and guests at Yellowstone Club are just fine doing nearly all of their skiing onsite.
I've spent the last decade checking out assorted big mountain resorts looking for places I and my senior friends would enjoy for a 2-3 week stay in the future. Meaning when we are all over 70, 75, or 80. Have skied longer than a week at Alta, Taos, and Wolf Creek so far. The typical "crew" who are travel mates for ski trips I plan are a mix of advanced and intermediate skiers, mostly over 65 and retired but there are a few younger folks who are still working.
Most of the time we ski 5+ days at the primary resort if not doing some sort of ski safari. The advantage of planning for a longer stay is being able to book lodging for 3+ nights. Better for rates and not having to unload/load the car as often. The idea is to relax and have fun. We don't track vertical much although a couple of my ski buddies started using a ski tracking app a few years ago.
Most of the time we ski 5+ days at the primary resort if not doing some sort of ski safari. The advantage of planning for a longer stay is being able to book lodging for 3+ nights. Better for rates and not having to unload/load the car as often. The idea is to relax and have fun. We don't track vertical much although a couple of my ski buddies started using a ski tracking app a few years ago.
I would ski off Schlasman's at this stage. Was pushed to get a transceiver several years ago by more than one of my regular instructors out west. Would want to go the first time with the instructor I work with at Bridger. The last time snow conditions were not good enough in his opinion. Considering he's a Ridge Guide, we didn't go. Need to get back soon since he's over 70.
The terrain off the Bridger lift keeps me entertained. Having followed the instructor multiple times since 2011, I've learned where to go even when the snow isn't the best. When I and Bill were there after a powder storm that dropped 6-8 inches, we opted to spend the morning on the Alpine lift. The short tree runs going right off the lift were fun. Plenty of local seniors enjoying fresh tracks there pretty much all morning. The next day the Ridge opened. That's when there was a lift line 15 minutes before opening.
I'm finding that a criteria for a "favorite" resort is that I enjoy skiing solo. Meaning not just on groomers. There are times I feel like exploring off-piste terrain where I feel comfortable without a ski buddy. Can be blue trees or any terrain rate black for any reason. Remember, I like Alta more than Snowbird, and Grand Targhee more than JHMR.
My usual approach is to plan ski trips months in advance, taking into account were a few friends are interested in going. Staying longer increases the chance of having at least few better days. Very different approach than looking for good snow on expert terrain.
I don’t know those old days. I went there first in March 2014. The experience I had there in January 2025 in relatively low tide conditions was still pretty flipping good.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Again, you can have a great day; I just don't think you want to drive up LCC for more than 3 days in a row.
And most people on this list (locals, part-timers, and vacationers) do not do this.
The skiing is not the issue; it is the logistics: parking fees, parking reservations, weekend traffic, out-of-hand crowds on powder days, and a small lodging base. Unless staying on-site, I do not think anyone on this list has done 4-days in a row. I have never done more than 2-3 concurrent days at Alta and Snowbird, despite elite snow and terrain. Therefore, I just don't think Alta/Snowbird is much more than a 3-day mountain.
And it's not just my opinion; I listened to industry expert and SE Group (elite ski resort design firm) Principal Chris Cushing (SLC-based) recently state in a Storm Skiing podcast:
He doesn't ski Little Cottonwood Canyon nearly as much anymore, and one of the main reasons is access. He talks about how the Cottonwoods have changed dramatically over the past couple of decades—the traffic, parking reservations, and general hassle have made spontaneous skiing much more difficult. He also comments that the Ikon Pass has fundamentally changed skier distribution and crowding in Utah.
Podcast #206: SE Group Principal of Mountain Planning Chris Cushing
“We’re really helping the general public access nature”
www.stormskiing.com
Also on this list: who is at any single mountain more than a couple of days? Every trip seems to be a semi-ski safari. And I am not sure if anyone who visits the SLC area skis more than 2-3 days at any specific mountain.
Most friends taking ski trips are more of the 3-4-day variety, plus travel. A week is far less common due to work/expense/etc.
Fair points. I have been to the area maybe half a dozen times. I fly in and out of SLC. I generally have a couple/few days at Altabird (staying down in the valley) and then drive to GT and/or Jackson and/or Big Sky and/or Sun Valley then come back for a couple more days at Altabird. I have substituted the areas to the north for Aspen a couple of times too.Again, you can have a great day; I just don't think you want to drive up LCC for more than 3 days in a row.
And most people on this list (locals, part-timers, and vacationers) do not do this.
The skiing is not the issue; it is the logistics: parking fees, parking reservations, weekend traffic, out-of-hand crowds on powder days, and a small lodging base. Unless staying on-site, I do not think anyone on this list has done 4-days in a row. I have never done more than 2-3 concurrent days at Alta and Snowbird, despite elite snow and terrain. Therefore, I just don't think Alta/Snowbird is much more than a 3-day mountain.
And it's not just my opinion; I listened to industry expert and SE Group (elite ski resort design firm) Principal Chris Cushing (SLC-based) recently state in a Storm Skiing podcast:
He doesn't ski Little Cottonwood Canyon nearly as much anymore, and one of the main reasons is access. He talks about how the Cottonwoods have changed dramatically over the past couple of decades—the traffic, parking reservations, and general hassle have made spontaneous skiing much more difficult. He also comments that the Ikon Pass has fundamentally changed skier distribution and crowding in Utah.
Podcast #206: SE Group Principal of Mountain Planning Chris Cushing
“We’re really helping the general public access nature”
Also on this list: who is at any single mountain more than a couple of days? Every trip seems to be a semi-ski safari. And I am not sure if anyone who visits the SLC area skis more than 2-3 days at any specific mountain.
Most friends taking ski trips are more of the 3-4-day variety, plus travel. A week is far less common due to work/expense/etc.
Thank you Mountain Collective.
It's interesting to think how long you could stay at one hill without new snow. Altabird would still be at the pointy end of that list for me. So would Mammoth and Whistler. The Japanese ski areas would induce boredom before too long without new snow in my opinion.
jimk
Well-known member
I think as I get older the idea of doing a deep dive at a ski mountain has more appeal, more so than a quick three day survey. I am sort of doing this with Snowbird and Solitude. I get to ski those two for many days each season and really get to know them. I could see doing that at a place like Arapahoe Basin or most large or very challenging places.
There was a time with I spent 30+ days "deep diving" into a ski area in PA with only 1000' vertical and had fun with it. Almost all skiing is fun and you make do with what you have access to
There was a time with I spent 30+ days "deep diving" into a ski area in PA with only 1000' vertical and had fun with it. Almost all skiing is fun and you make do with what you have access to
Depends on what stage of life and lifestyle . . . most of my ski/travel buddies are retired or don't have a full-time job that requires being in an office very often. A semi-ski safari that lasts 2-3 weeks can easily include skiing one resort for a week.
If you only want to discuss what regular posters on FTO are interested in doing, them I'm done here.