Vertical vs. Techical Terrain vs. Powder vs. $$$

[snowbird surfer]

The $700 is consistent with Canadian day cat skiing, but the odds of powder at Arpa are low given its latitude and the extreme volatile snowfall pattern very opposite in both regards to interior B.C.

If the helicopter at Portillo can get you to the Super C that’s probably worth it vs. a 3+ hour hike above Roca Jack.

I can’t imagine being satisfied with 9-12k vert over the course of a day, regardless of the price. The Stowe 4Runner yields 12+k per hour midweek. Many locals enjoy 20k by 10 am then go about their day.

I was lucky enough to ski with the mica heli outfit years ago. I was placed in a fast moving group and we comfortably blew through 20k before lunch.

The arp offering reminds me of expensive tasting menus at “instagram worthy” hot spots that leave you hungry and heading to a quality pizza joint after paying the bill.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Yes. It appears all the areas are making progress; Valle even opened its backside today. Again, these are initial openings, so they take longer: dig out lifts, create surface lift tracks, build catwalks, create pistes/tracks, etc.



I thought all 4 areas are worthwhile and each can easily consume a day. The weakest is El Colorado - I am not into the front-side snow fence aesthetic, but there is good terrain on the backside.





That is a reasonable rate for a day of cat skiing, and 10-12k vertical with orientation is industry standard. Again, I cannot comment on the operation, but it seems like a worthwhile experience.

The heli operation at Portillo looks interesting, and runs were not crazy $ for powder and views of Aconcagua LINK . Given the strong snowfall to date in Portillo, it might be an alternative: half day lift/half day heli.



CMG Purcells: $1550 USD/day
Eagle Pass Revelstoke $1900/day

Vertical per Day: 12-15k at BC heli ops Eagle, Stellar, Selkirk-Tangiers, etc

Can’t compare cat skiing in sun/wind affected high density costal snow to heli blower in the Purcells.

Tony, would you happen to know the average density for Portillo/las Lenas?

My suggestion illustrates my revealed preference for high quality resort + BC access + opportunistic heli add on. To each their own!

 

[ChrisC]

I can’t imagine being satisfied with 9-12k vert over the course of a day, regardless of the price. The Stowe 4Runner yields 12+k per hour midweek. Many locals enjoy 20k by 10 am then go about their day.

I take it that Snowcat skiing is not your vibe.

And I might avoid La Grave - or even Mont Blanc: Chamonix's Aiguille du Midi or Courmayeur's Monte Bianco Cable Car . Those are not high vertical days. Alps couloirs limit vertical. (The only place one can just hammer extreme vertical is Verbier (Mont Gele, Fort, Gentianes/Jumbo cable cars)).

 

[snowbird surfer]

I take it that Snowcat skiing is not your vibe.

And I might avoid La Grave - or even Mont Blanc: Chamonix's Aiguille du Midi or Courmayeur's Monte Bianco Cable Car . Those are not high vertical days. Alps couloirs limit vertical. (The only place one can just hammer extreme vertical is Verbier (Mont Gele, Fort, Gentianes/Jumbo cable cars)).

Yep, not a snowcat, cat - yet. Favorite setup is lift access + slack/side/BC. Grand Montets without the summit lift was actually perfect in April. I enjoyed a tour or two up Logan glacier plus lots of lift accessed riding. Solitude is excellent and highly underrated for this as well. Can ride powderhorn, lap cathedral cirque then boot fantasy ridge or head out to Wolverine cirque via HTH or Millicent boot pack. It’s even possible to ski argenta or god’s lawnmower before lifts open if staying in BCC! Cervinia/Zermatt is appealing because it also offers fun inbounds and easy access to the breithorn.

Portillo looks equally appealing! Alas, no rooms at the inn until 9/12.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Yep, not a snowcat, cat - yet. Favorite setup is lift access + slack/side/BC. Grand Montets without the summit lift was actually perfect in April. I enjoyed a tour or two up Logan glacier plus lots of lift accessed riding. Solitude is excellent and highly underrated for this as well. Can ride powderhorn, lap cathedral cirque then boot fantasy ridge or head out to Wolverine cirque via HTH or Millicent boot pack. It’s even possible to ski argenta or god’s lawnmower before lifts open if staying in BCC! Cervinia/Zermatt is appealing because it also offers fun inbounds and easy access to the breithorn.

Portillo looks equally appealing! Alas, no rooms at the in until 9/12.

I should add Monterosa ski to the list above. Incredible terrain/side/BC access/views all with near zero skier density. MR with snow is likely tops. Sadly, snow is not consistent and south facing aspect can warm quickly, as you know.

Given declining snowfall, it seems to me that the optionality of early retirement and a fist full of dollars is the only way to truly get the most from ski country!

 

[Tony Crocker]

Favorite setup is lift access + slack/side/BC.

In terms of bang for the buck or favorable ratio of skiing to grunt work, the Alps are by far the best overall destination region. You may need to hire guides for navigation and local expertise on snowpack safety/conditions, but still a good value for what you can get.

proceed to Portillo and rip the super c in between lift accessed slay fest.”

Not on the same day unless you are the likes of Greg Hill. For 99% of skiers, the Super C will consume your entire day or you will need rest after climbing and skiing it. That's ChrisC on Palmyra or me in Highlands Bowl. How many laps can snowbird surfer do on Highlands Bowl in the same day? So maybe if you're in Portillo for a whole week, you might devote one day to the Super C. But on a 3-4 day trip ChrisC is right, there's plenty of interesting terrain to keep most people engaged.

I can’t imagine being satisfied with 9-12k vert over the course of a day, regardless of the price.

For either cat or heli that is almost always what you will get at a day operation where you have the morning safety briefing and transceiver drill, plus the guides want to see how people ski before they step up pace or terrain. So i figured out right away (see 1997 and 1998 below) that I preferred a multiday lodge based operation.

As one who has counted vertical since inception, perhaps I can provide some perspective. Hopefully it will be useful as I suspect snowbird surfer is no older than I was when I started the Canadian trips at age 44 in 1997. This period coincided with the growth spurt of mechanized backcountry operations in B.C. so I got to try many of them. I was hooked immediately because my first two experiences were outstanding:
Island Lake 1997
TLH Heli 1998
I think both the 3 days at Island Lake and the two at TLH cost around $1,400 back then. There was a $400 surcharge for extra vertical at TLH. When the guides warned us midday that might happen, one of us clients rolled up his sleeve and said, "Stick the needle in. I want some more."

I sampled both cat and heli operations for another decade+. As of 2009 I had 35 days and 410K vertical of snowcat and 19 days and 370K vertical of heli. So there was a gap in vertical per day in the ballpark with the price gap. But in 2010 I discovered Mustang Snowcat, where I took 10 tours, skiing 31 days at average 16K vertical. And Mustang has an exceptional microclimate averaging 575 inches snowfall at its 5,700 foot lodge plus solid advanced/expert terrain quality. At that point I was done with heli in Canada though did some more in Alaska and Iceland.

My vertical page also lists every day I have skied as much as 15K per day in powder by a fairly strict definition excluding traverses and runouts.
There are 17 via heli (55% of 31) and 21 (17 Mustang, 4 Island Lake) via snowcat (21% of 99). The remainder represent less than 1% of lift served ski days, which might explain why people are wiling to pay $$$ for cat or heli, especially if their schedules are not flexible.

optionality of early retirement and a fist full of dollars is the only way to truly get the most from ski country!

For powder that is true for most people. The exceptions live within daytrip distance of the highest snowfall areas. As I've mentioned before my early retirement seasons ages 58-66 were my peak ski years in terms of all of the parameters in the title of this thread.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Excellent info and perspective.

I’m good for 2-3 highland bowls plus laps on temerity. I was lucky enough to have first tracks on highland December of 24? That was the epic early season IIRC. My daughter and I flew out in a powder fever for 4 great early December days. They opened highland on day 3 of our trip. When they dropped the rope line we basically ran for it. Can’t remember the climb time but 37 minutes in a flop sweat sounds right. She was happy after the first lap but I convinced her we needed more and up we went. She was cooked after that. I told her to ride temerity and I went for a third lap then joined her. Good memories.

Inbounds lift accessed powder can be tough due to competition and crowding. I’ve had huge days midweek at Stowe (40-55k) and solitude (40+) but these days are the exception. Powderhorn is quite slow and much of the best riding requires uphill traverses (cathedral) and gate entrance. The resort is also very cautious since management changed. 10 years ago they dropped the lower gates and had fantasy ridge open quite often. Now fantasy remains closed much of the year despite being littered with towers.

In 2000 I had a season pass to snowbird and probably skied the mountain 80 days - some were very big. Back then you could sprint up the canyon at 50 mph, park anywhere and get lots of vertical in 3 hrs as there were no lines. It was possible to ride the same tram car back then. Harder to do now as the ride is only 8 minutes and there’s inevitably a line at the bottom. Nowadays, the only high vert snowbird powder days seem to be when April storms come in.

My family was lucky enough to have excellent high vert powder at telluride over presidents week on two consecutive years. Think 10+ runs on milkrun/bushwacker/spiral stairs before heading deeper into the report.

For some reason Jackson hole during MLK week is relatively empty and often produces multiple powder days - even two years ago when the town was on suicide watch for lack of December snowfall. Powder laps off the super high speed Teton lift can easily yield 10-12k per hour if you stick to kemerer. Then head to thunder which is also high yield through riverton bowl.

Then there’s the biggest powder days of my life, made possible by the march 2024, 80 inch dump at Zermatt. Day 1 - 17 runs on the rothorn face. Day 2 - another 15+ on hohtali. Powder + high speed lifts + Low/no skier density + hypervolt massage gun + naproxen 440 bid made this possible. If you’ve read some of my prior posts about Zermatt you’ll know that I can’t shake that memory…I’ve chased it two more times to no avail.

These above scenarios are memorable because they are rare and require focused storm chasing which can include cognitive overload, an expanded budget and physical exhaustion