Tiers of Eastern Ski Areas/Analogies in Other Regions

[Tony Crocker]

If I lived within an hour of the Catskills, I'd certainly go there more often.

Yes I get the one vs. two hour convenience factor. I probably don't ski last Saturday on Baldy's limited remaining terrain if it's a whole day commitment vs. half a day. Similarly I might ski Big Bear in early season WROD mode if it were one hour but as it is I want to see those areas 60+% open with some of their black marked runs to spend a whole day going out there. Garry lives 40 minutes closer to Big Bear than I do and he skis there quite a bit when Baldy is lacking snow. He often only skis Snow Summit and leaves by 2PM to beat any traffic going down the hill.

I see Big Bear and Mt. High as close analogies to the Catskills. Liz says Hunter is more challenging than Big Bear. She has only seen the East side of Mt. High, but I suspect East + West in full operation is very comparable to Hunter.

I have skied top tier in the East including full operation days at Stowe and MRG. Baldy during infrequent full operation is not far off those places in scale and at least as good in terrain quality.

What does James define as second tier East Coast?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

What does James define as second tier East Coast?

Tiers mean different things to different people, whether it's East, West, or the Alps. To me, it's a mixture of best terrain (on- and off-piste), best conditions (the East's often volatile snowfall/preservation needs to be considered), the most skiable terrain, with the added category of perceived popularity. I'd posit that the first tier is inarguable and that others would put some of the first-tier runner-ups in the top rung (for example, Patrick is a big fan of MSA and many would place Cannon/Mittersill, the Whiteface of New Hampshire, in the first tier if it had less challenging weather/conditions).

First Tier: Stowe, Smugglers Notch, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Whiteface, Sugarloaf, Jay

First-Tier Runner-Ups: Killington, Tremblant, Le Massif, Mont Sainte Anne, Cannon/Mittersill

Second Tier: Gore, Stratton, Magic, Mount Snow, Burke, Bretton Woods, Wildcat, Sunday River, Saddleback, Massif du Sud, Mont Orford, Sutton, Attitash

Another thing to consider is whether lower tiers are an attraction or a deterrent to a given skier. Over the years, I've made a cottage industry out of skiing third-tier areas and some would say that I prefer them. The most recent exhibit is my February 2019 visit to the Steiermark and Salzburgerland regions of Austria, where six of the seven areas were unquestionably third tier for the Alps. On the other hand: while Tony visits the full gamut of ski mountains in his extensive travels -- from Alta/Snowbird and Whistler to Pajarito, Baldy, and Castle -- due to his background as an actuary (tasked with figuring out the most probable to the least likely/the "best" to the "worst"), I would venture to say that he leans toward the first tier.

Feel free to break this out into a separate topic.

 

[Patrick]

I'd posit that the first tier is inarguable and that others would put some of the first-tier runner-ups in the top rung (for example, Patrick is a big fan of MSA and many would place Cannon/Mittersill, the Whiteface of New Hampshire, in the first tier if it had less challenging weather/conditions).

First Tier: Stowe, Smugglers Notch, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Whiteface, Sugarloaf, Jay

First-Tier Runner-Ups: Killington, Tremblant, Le Massif, Mont Sainte Anne, Cannon/Mittersill

Second Tier: Gore, Stratton, Magic, Mount Snow, Burke, Bretton Woods, Wildcat, Sunday River, Saddleback, Massif du Sud, Mont Orford, Sutton, Attitash

Yes, but regardless of my opinions and tastes, I think you tiers are a good reflection.

I haven't been to MSA is a while and I still think it's my favourite for overall terrain/topography in Quebec, however maybe if I would have skied there more often, it might stick out as much above Tremblant. I grew up skiing Tremblant, so I might have gotten bored by some aspects (plus not a fan of the busy scene that arrived with Intrawest 25 years ago.

If people would go back maybe 10 years ago, my favorites are still pretty much the same. They need challenge, fall line skiing, a good variety of fun trails regardless if they are groomed and not.

Here are my top 2 ...followed by my next 3 (alpha order).

1) Stowe, Sugarloaf
2) Mad River Glen, Smuggs', Whiteface

Anyway here is my current count, I've been stuck at the same count since April 14, my longer break from skiing since November. There are still one month left of skiing within a day drive and beyond in the East, so I'm hoping to get a chance to go, but a few important issues are still in the way.

Days 79 (66 Days / 13 nights)

Local Ottawa - 60miles/100km or less:
Edelweiss: 53
Ste-Marie: 6
Calabogie ON: 1
Fortune: 1
Cascades: 1

Not local
Killington VT: 6
Mad River Glen VT: 3
St-Sauveur QC: 2
Smuggs' VT: 1
Cannon NH: 1
Burke VT: 1
Owl's Head QC: 1
Bretton Woods NH: 1
Middlebury VT: 1


Before someone gets on me, I've been being paid with 66 of those outings (I managed to pay for my NZ 2016 and Australia 2018 trips for those 2 seasons of coaching), so my actual out of pocket cost is $165 US or approximately $2/day.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Before someone gets on me

LOL, anticipating a certain person's inevitable criticism. :lol:

 

[Tony Crocker]

Patrick's eastern skiing is essentially a job at this point, and most people don't get to be flexible about where they work.

We have been corresponding, and Patrick's ski quality should increase significantly in May/June when he's not on the job. :wink:

James' eastern hierarchy makes sense and if there's debate about that list it would be at the margins. The areas that are best for each of his stated criteria are often the same places, with obvious dominance by northern Vermont.

In the West or the Alps the conversation would be different. There are places in the West that are probably fourth tier by resort ambience and public visibility/popularlty/skier visits that are first tier for terrain (Castle) or snow (Targhee, Wolf Creek).

I'm sure James would say the Alps have even more diversity of attributes. He makes an art form of finding places that are huge by North American standards that are far under the radar even to Euro vacationers. I would say that there are perhaps more places in the Alps that are top tier for a particular level of skier but of almost no interest to other types of skiers. North American marketing departments invest much effort in spinning their areas as being suitable for all levels of skiers.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

North American marketing departments invest much effort in spinning their areas as being suitable for all levels of skiers.

Good point. On NY Ski Blog, locals repeatedly shake their head in disbelief about how the state agency that manages Whiteface (ORDA) continues to spin it in marketing and daily operations decisions as a family ski area, when the terrain (decently steep) and conditions (often hardpack or worse) say otherwise.

As you've underscored before, the casual/family skier demographic in Europe is numerous multiples that of North America's. My February trip to Austrian third-tier areas underscored how downhill skiing is such an ingrained part of non-hardcores' leisure time there. The mountains I visited (unknown to long-distance ski tourists) are positioned to absorb the sizable market unwilling to spend the extra money and deal with the additional crowds that go along with top-tier resorts during peak periods.

I guess that North American analogies would be Schweitzer instead of Sun Valley, Powder Mountain/Solitude/Brighton instead of Park City/Deer Valley/AltaBird. What's interesting about Colorado in particular is how few comparatively lower-tier options are left other than A-Basin, Loveland, Eldora, and Monarch, which are locals joints without any onsite lodging. There's expensive (Copper, Winter Park, Steamboat, Telluride, Breckenridge, Keystone, Crested Butte) and there's really expensive (Vail, Beaver Creek, the Aspen group).

Of course, the Ikon and Epic Passes have positively affected those numbers to a point but still, buying one of those passes (in the upper three figures) is something you have to plan well in advance. In contrast: as mentioned recently, even ultra-exclusive St. Moritz offers surprisingly reasonable options for mere mortals -- mine was $130/day for lift ticket, extensive local transportation, lodging, and breakfast that I booked only a few days before departure. Anecdotal Exhibit B is Hotel Sandhof in Lech, which includes a pleasant hotel right in the middle of town, outstanding half-board meals, and a six-day Arlberg pass for a quite decent price.

 

[Sbooker]

Patrick's eastern skiing is essentially a job at this point, and most people don't get to be flexible about where they work.

We have been corresponding, and Patrick's ski quality should increase significantly in May/June when he's not on the job. :wink:

James' eastern hierarchy makes sense and if there's debate about that list it would be at the margins. The areas that are best for each of his stated criteria are often the same places, with obvious dominance by northern Vermont.

In the West or the Alps the conversation would be different. There are places in the West that are probably fourth tier by resort ambience and public visibility/popularlty/skier visits that are first tier for terrain (Castle) or snow (Targhee, Wolf Creek).

I'm sure James would say the Alps have even more diversity of attributes. He makes an art form of finding places that are huge by North American standards that are far under the radar even to Euro vacationers. I would say that there are perhaps more places in the Alps that are top tier for a particular level of skier but of almost no interest to other types of skiers. North American marketing departments invest much effort in spinning their areas as being suitable for all levels of skiers.

It’s a good and necessary thing that the marketing departments put that spin on things. In my view some hills are pigeon holed far too often - most particularly in relation to “not suitable for beginners” or “xxxxxx is an expert only mountain”. I’m sure many skiers have missed the opportunity to visit some wonderful iconic hills because of this rubbish.
Jackson and Snowbird are the best examples. There are acres and acres of beginner and intermediate terrain on the (lookers) right side of Jackson mountain and heaps of terrain on the Gad side of Snowbird (not to mention about half of Mineral Basin) that is perfect for very average skiers.
My family of permanent intermediates rate Snowbird as a favourite.

 

[sierra_cement]

North American marketing departments invest much effort in spinning their areas as being suitable for all levels of skiers.

Every area in the US claims to be family-friendly. I think family-friendly is a catchall. If they have lodging: it's family-friendly; it doesn't matter if it's expensive. If they have beginner terrain: it's family-friendly; if they have low priced tickets: family friendly. Low crowds: family-friendly.

So I don't even understand what it means when people say it's family-friendly.

My friend working in marketing said: the goal of marketing is to say as little as possible with as many words as possible.

 

[Tony Crocker]

My family of permanent intermediates rate Snowbird as a favourite.

Just last week you said your intermediate groomer skiing wife only "tolerates Snowbird." The term "intermediate" covers a lot of ground. Some of them like Snowbird a lot better than others. Virtually all intermediates like Alta better than Snowbird. And I stand by my opinion that Snowbird is about as inappropriate as you can get for beginners.

I agree with sierra_cement that "family friendly" is about as ill defined a term as there is in the world of ski resorts, and ridiculously overused. Part of this comes from the simple fact that all families are not the same. You don't see every resort putting out press releases about how they are good for 30-year old singles or 45-year old couples. In those cases perhaps it's more obvious that what attracts skiers more is a fit for appropriate ski terrain, interest in convenience and/or luxury amenities or conversely a desire to stay within a budget and maximize bang for the buck. All of those factors apply to families too.

 

[Sbooker]

My family of permanent intermediates rate Snowbird as a favourite.

Just last week you said your intermediate groomer skiing wife only "tolerates Snowbird." The term "intermediate" covers a lot of ground. Some of them like Snowbird a lot better than others. Virtually all intermediates like Alta better than Snowbird. And I stand by my opinion that Snowbird is about as inappropriate as you can get for beginners.

I agree with sierra_cement that "family friendly" is about as ill defined a term as there is in the world of ski resorts, and ridiculously overused. Part of this comes from the simple fact that all families are not the same. You don't see every resort putting out press releases about how they are good for 30-year old singles or 45-year old couples. In those cases perhaps it's more obvious that what attracts skiers more is a fit for appropriate ski terrain, interest in convenience and/or luxury amenities or conversely a desire to stay within a budget and maximize bang for the buck. All of those factors apply to families too.

I’ll be more accurate then. My kids and myself love Snowbird. * The kids being tiny in stature hate the tram though.
Yes you are correct - my wife would prefer to be up the road a bit but she’ll happily compromise for the sake of the group.

 

[Tony Crocker]

due to his background as an actuary (tasked with figuring out the most probable to the least likely/the "best" to the "worst"), I would venture to say that he leans toward the first tier.

That is overall true but with some caveats. The more $$$ or time one expands in travel, the higher the bar IMHO to seek out a first tier experience. Traveling to another continent is clearly the highest such bar. So within the massive bench of resorts in the Alps, it's going to take a long time to work one's way down to across-the-board third tier areas. I'd consider an exception for scoring a big uncontested powder day like we did at Pajarito.

There is also the diversity argument. La Grave most obviously but also Alagna, Andermatt-Gemsstock and Engelberg-Titlis have high attraction to off piste skiers but are quite limited for the vast majority of on-piste Euro vacationers.

Hokkaido is another diversity case. Niseko is the big area, but it's heavily westernized and there is powder competition, though nothing like North America. The smaller places have totally uncontested powder, but generally short fall lines with as much time spent on traverses and runouts as skiing. I say if you're traveling that far, it's best to mix it up with both experiences as I did with Liz on my second trip there in 2016.

And here's where I got into another disagreement with Patrick, who devoted his August/September streak trip to Australia last year. I happened to get a ski day in at Thredbo in 1997 at low marginal cost as we were in Canberra with a group and I could run off with our car rental for two days. Thredbo is the longest vertical area in Australia but still probably barely comparable to those second tier eastern areas in terrain quality. The other places barely exceed 1,000 vertical, which puts them in the Catskill/Big Bear class though they are probably a bit more interesting since they are partially above tree line. When you throw in snow reliability, which is worse than Big Bear/Catskills, I think you have to be a nutcase to travel halfway around the world for an advance booked dedicated ski trip. Like the Northeast, Australia skiing is always one rainstorm away from crappy conditions with terrain closures. Fortunately Patrick beat those snow reliability odds and skied Australia during its best season since 2004 according to the Spencer's Creek snow data.

On western road trips, it is more frequent that I can check out a more obscure place at low marginal cost. That's why my western list is so comprehensive. As I noted after skiing Stevens Pass in February, I don't even know what the largest western area I have not skied is. I guess in terms of trustworthy reviews Pebble Creek has piqued my interest. Pebble Creek's Achilles' heel is poor snow reliability, but given the short distance from SLC I should be able to add that one sometime when it's worthwhile.

 

[Patrick]

North American marketing departments invest much effort in spinning their areas as being suitable for all levels of skiers.

Good point. On NY Ski Blog, locals repeatedly shake their head in disbelief about how the state agency that manages Whiteface (ORDA) continues to spin it in marketing and daily operations decisions as a family ski area, when the terrain (decently steep) and conditions (often hardpack or worse) say otherwise.

Having looked at a bunch of ski areas from all over, although Whiteface and Smuggs have awesome steep terrain, these two areas have amazing beginner terrain. Without taking much time to think about it, I would qualify these among the best all-around ski areas that cater to the full spectrum of skiers. Having skied Whiteface when Morgane was a toddler, I wouldn't hesitate sending a family of various abilities there. The beginner lifts at the extreme bottom of Whiteface main side + the other separate beginner pod (Kids Kampus) is truly awesome.

This might come as a surprise, but I would rate the beginner terrain at Whiteface way superior to that of most of Ottawa local hills which the exception of Pakenham and Vorlage.

We all know that beginner can be spoked by big mountains; I totally understand part of the marketing strategy. Mad River Glen has a hard time attracting families due to the reputation of the ski area; this even if they have great beginner terrain at Birdland. There are many factors.

 

[Patrick]

And here's where I got into another disagreement with Patrick, who devoted his August/September streak trip to Australia last year. (...) Thredbo is the longest vertical area in Australia but still probably barely comparable to those second tier eastern areas in terrain quality.

I didn't a good appreciation of Thredbo and visibility have pretty bad in the alpine. That being said, I place it as my third favorite ski area. I definitely preferred Perisher and Hotham over Thredbo.

I think you have to be a nutcase to travel halfway around the world for an advance booked dedicated ski trip. (...) Fortunately Patrick beat those snow reliability odds and skied Australia during its best season since 2004 according to the Spencer's Creek snow data.

Three weeks prior isn't that much of an advance notice. I knew that Australia was having their best season in a generation plus I was curious with skiing aspect of Australia and the country in general. If it would have been only for skiing I wouldn't have bother going West of Melbourne or heading up to Sydney.

I can't wait to see your reaction when I ski at Tiffindell and Afriski in South Africa/Lesotho.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I can't wait to see your reaction when I ski at Tiffindell and Afriski in South Africa/Lesotho.

Winter is an attractive tourist season in southern Africa, the best season for safari camps. So spending one day to claim the 7th continent is a likely scenario for me if I'm there anyway sometime for 2-3 weeks. This is the exact scenario where I got Thredbo. Since that part of southern Africa has a summer wet/winter dry climate, it is 100% WROD skiing on about 700 vertical.

I definitely preferred Perisher and Hotham over Thredbo.

Patrick has often stated a preference for long continuous fall lines. Presumably that's why he didn't list Jay in his top tier East. So it's hard to see why he was impressed by Perisher's barely 1,000 vertical which sbooker from Brisbane describes as flat.

I knew that Australia was having their best season in a generation

As a Northeaster, Patrick should know that rain can turn a previously great season to crap in short order. Last weekend was Exhibit A. Nonetheless it was great to see Patrick catch a break in Australia considering he skied New Zealand in a very bad year.

 

[Patrick]

I can't wait to see your reaction when I ski at Tiffindell and Afriski in South Africa/Lesotho.

Winter is an attractive tourist season in southern Africa, the best season for safari camps. So spending one day to claim the 7th continent is a likely scenario for me if I'm there anyway sometime for 2-3 weeks. (...) Since that part of southern Africa has a summer wet/winter dry climate, it is 100% WROD skiing on about 700 vertical.

There would also be Matroosberg near Cape Town that I would curious to check out if there is snow.

I definitely preferred Perisher and Hotham over Thredbo.

Patrick has often stated a preference for long continuous fall lines. (...) So it's hard to see why he was impressed by Perisher's barely 1,000 vertical which sbooker from Brisbane describes as flat.

Perisher is huge and they are some steep parts which you can lap with certains lifts. Anyway good enough for the Canadian and French Freestyle team.

I knew that Australia was having their best season in a generation

As a Northeaster, Patrick should know that rain can turn a previously great season to crap in short order. Last weekend was Exhibit A. Nonetheless it was great to see Patrick catch a break in Australia considering he skied New Zealand in a very bad year.

I wouldn't call it a very bad year, I had a great time. Skied 7 days, travelled 4400km across two islands over 3 weeks. Australia was somewhat the same idea, but I had less time. Same amount of ski days, 2600km over 2 weeks (I couldn't manage more time).

 

[Tony Crocker]

I wouldn't call it a very bad year,

The people who live there did. It was the worst year on record for the Canterbury areas near Christchurch, which includes nearly all of the club fields. Fortunately if you're going to a region when the skiing is bad, NZ is a good choice because there is so much else to do. Three of my four ski trips there were on average mediocre for snow conditions, better than Patrick's NZ trip but not as good as his Australia trip.