Relative Costs of International Ski Destinations

[Sbooker]

I would not. We don't even know if there will be a recession yet, and certainly not on the scale of 2008. Skiers in the US skew upscale and past recessions have a barely discernable impact upon visitation compared to snow conditions. Recall those prior record high seasons in 2007-08 and 2010-11.

Interesting. Aussie accommodation bookings are way down so far this coming winter. Punters are stretched with higher mortgage payments. (We primarily have variable interest rates).
Having said that the lodging rates are waaaaaay higher than Aspen rates. Maybe the people have had enough?
$205 day rate by the way. I pay $90 in Val D’Isere.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Having said that the lodging rates are waaaaaay higher than Aspen rates. Maybe the people have had enough?
$205 day rate by the way.

I recall from 1997 that lift tickets in Australia were expensive relative to the US at the time. I stayed in some kind of group lodging in Jindabyne that was fairly reasonable.

I always say evaluate ski markets in regional context. In terms of both scale and snow reliability the Aussie ski areas are in the ballpark with SoCal and a cut below what James calls "Tier 2" in the Northeast, so even in 1997 they struck me as overpriced. But in regional context the Aussie ski areas are a limited supply with high demand. I would think that Aussies beyond the Sydney/Melbourne weekend drive distances would prefer NZ since they have to fly anyway. NZ snow reliability has issues too, but the terrain is much better and the costs once you get there are definitely less.

On our recent week in SW Australia hotels and restaurants seemed in an average range for the US to us, though with some assistance from a favorable exchange rate.

higher mortgage payments. (We primarily have variable interest rates).

Mostly we don't. Federal agencies buy and guarantee qualified 30 year fixed mortgages from the direct lenders. From the time I bought my house in 1984 I have refinanced 11 times. I'm now fairly sure December 2020 was the final one because it's at 2.5%. Current rate is about 6 3/4%. In the years leading up to the 2008 financial crisis a lot of the subprime loans were variable with lowball teaser rates for the first couple of years.

 

[Sbooker]

In the years leading up to the 2008 financial crisis a lot of the subprime loans were variable with lowball teaser rates for the first couple of years.

I like the term teaser rate. We call them honeymoon rates.
We do have fixed rates but only for up to a few years. A lot of Aussies are coming off those ultra low (1.99%) rates right now. The average mortgage of $500000 sees a repayment rise of $450 per week when transferring to the current variable rate apparently.
No wonder a lot of families have ditched the ski trip this year.

 

[ChrisC]

I like the term teaser rate. We call them honeymoon rates.
We do have fixed rates but only for up to a few years. A lot of Aussies are coming off those ultra low (1.99%) rates right now. The average mortgage of $500000 sees a repayment rise of $450 per week when transferring to the current variable rate apparently.
No wonder a lot of families have ditched the ski trip this year.

It's these floating rates that allow you to play some of the foreign currency markets a la George Soros. Eventually, it becomes too politically and financially painful for Central Banks to maintain these higher interest rates for defending currencies or fighting inflation. Especially after the world comes off historically low interest rates.

 

[ChrisC]

Having said that the lodging rates are waaaaaay higher than Aspen rates.

What? Aspen has to be Top 3 least affordable places for lodging in US Ski Towns. Maybe some enclaves like Deer Valley, Jackson Hole base and neighborhoods of Vail compete.

 

[Sbooker]

What? Aspen has to be Top 3 least affordable places for lodging in US Ski Towns. Maybe some enclaves like Deer Valley, Jackson Hole base and neighborhoods of Vail compete.

Yep. A family of four for a week on the hill ain’t cheap. Lodging only -

A comparable bargain a half an hour drive away in the valley at Jindabyne.

Now let’s look for the same family in the same Aussie dollars at Tignes for a week.

Or Jackson Hole. Same family. Same week.

Now obviously there is a little issue of airfares to consider but considering the difference in experience (and likelihood of rain and lack of snowfall in Oz) I think it’s an easy choice.

 

[Tony Crocker]

You might want to add Queenstown or Wanaka to that comparison.

 

[Sbooker]

You might want to add Queenstown or Wanaka to that comparison.

Flights were never a factor but since the pandemic there has been a change. It’s about $150 to fly to return to Sydney or Melbourne from where I am. Traditionally flights to Queenstown or Christchurch were about $400 return. They are now over $1000. (For a three hour flight. The 24 hour flight to Europe is under $2000).

NZ lift ticket prices are not quite as crazy as Australia but they are getting up there.

Instead of Oz or NZ I have South America on my radar for next southern hemisphere winter.

 

[ChrisC]

Or Jackson Hole. Same family. Same week.

Comparing Jackson, WY to slopeside Australia? Not apples to apples. Jackson WY proper has traditionally been more of a tourist town for the summer market of Teton National Park and Yellowstone National Park. Some places were barely winterized.

Jackson Hole/Teton Village WY is different $$$$ - since 2000 it's 4/5 star luxe accommodations. Jackson, WY is also 20 minutes from Teton Village/Jackson Hole Ski Area. I will show you a lot of cheap accommodations in the US/Europe 15 miles / 20 minutes from the actual ski area. I'm sure Australia too.

Not sure what you are looking for....2 bedroom Apt? Didn't see a screenshot for Aspen. Bet it's worse than Australia. Heck, try Telluride Mountain Village. Likely worse than Australia.

Also, I don't get your flight prices. Brisbane to Sydney or Melbourne tickets were mostly less than $250 USD for July 1-8. Believe $150/200 USD was average on the discounters. Where is $1000 coming from?

I fail to believe Australia is all that awfully expensive if Patrick continues to ski there. Yes, lift tickets seem a bit high - but no more so than what US Eastern skiers pay. And cheaper than Western US.

Thought airfare from Australia to Denver/Vancouver or Geneva/Zurich/Milan was equivalent during a Jan/Feb period.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I will show you a lot of cheap accommodations in the US/Europe 15 miles / 20 minutes from the actual ski area. I'm sure Australia too.

That's what Jindabyne is from Thredbo/Perisher. My night there in 1997 was cheap, but so was our accommodation in the village 6 miles down the road from Big Sky in 2013. Some destinations suddenly become more expensive.

ChrisC is dead-on about Patrick. He may be paying up for lift tickets, but he's fanatically cheap about food and lodging.

I've had four fairly extensive trips to Australia, including two months ago. Overall it's about what most Americans would expect in a first world country, except in 2012 when AUD was > USD. It was more like Switzerland then.

Where is $1000 coming from?

Sbooker said that was current price to fly Australia to New Zealand. New Zealand is generally cheaper than Australia once you get there. That was his response to my opinion that no one should be flying from Brisbane within Australia to ski vs. going to New Zealand.

 

[Sbooker]

Comparing Jackson, WY to slopeside Australia? Not apples to apples. Jackson WY proper has traditionally been more of a tourist town for the summer market of Teton National Park and Yellowstone National Park. Some places were barely winterized.

I’ve stayed in Jackson a couple of times. It’s an easier drive to the hill compared to driving from Jindabyne to the ski resorts. And Jackson town has a nice vibe going on. Jindabyne not si much.

I'm sure Australia too.

That’s the point. The accommodation even in the valleys and 30 minutes from the resorts are extremely expensive. I paid about $100Aud per night in January for a nice little apartment in Les Arcs - right on the snow.

Also, I don't get your flight prices. Brisbane to Sydney or Melbourne tickets were mostly less than $250 USD for July 1-8. Believe $150/200 USD was average on the discounters. Where is $1000 coming from?

Sorry for the confusion. Flights from Brisbane to Queenstown are now over $1000 aud. You’re correct that it’s still only $100 to $200 to fly to Sydney or Melbourne.

Thought airfare from Australia to Denver/Vancouver or Geneva/Zurich/Milan was equivalent during a Jan/Feb period.

It’s much cheaper to fly to Europe than North America now. I don’t know why as the flight is a lot longer and obviously has to use much more fuel and the staff costs have to be higher.

 

[ChrisC]

Sorry for the confusion. Flights from Brisbane to Queenstown are now over $1000 aud. You’re correct that it’s still only $100 to $200 to fly to Sydney or Melbourne.

That's a high price for Queenstown. I saw Christchurch is half the price, but that drive is tough. I have done that journey from Christchurch ->Queenstown in the summer (January 2004) - and it was long and windy. I would not pay $1k for Austalia to Queenstown. I start getting annoyed if I need to pay $500 to get to a remote US ski town (Jackson, Telluride, Aspen, Kalispell, Sun Valley).

FYI aside
Telluride prices really dropped when you had JetBlue and Southwest flying to Montrose! $300+ rt was the going rate. And basically, most of my frequent flier mile redemptions went to get to remote ski towns before the airlines started pegging routes to the actual price.

It’s much cheaper to fly to Europe than North America now. I don’t know why as the flight is a lot longer and obviously has to use much more fuel and the staff costs have to be higher.

It's insane!

I expect to not pay more than $200+ to do San Francisco/Oakland to South Florida. Tony asked why I Scuba in the Caribbean vs. the Pacific - it costs very little to get to South Florida. Reasons: My family is there now. And Caribbean flights were dirt cheap when JetBlue/Southwest were creating hubs at Fort Lauderdale. I did the promotional <$100 rt flights to Curacao, Caymans, Cancun/Cozumel, Trinidad/Tobago, Barbados. That ended due to COVID.

A business school professor said the US airlines make no money on inter-USA flights. It's all about getting passengers to a hub and sending them to an international destination.

I really hate SouthWest these days - all the costs - no benefits.

That’s the point. The accommodation even in the valleys and 30 minutes from the resorts are extremely expensive. I paid about $100Aud per night in January for a nice little apartment in Les Arcs - right on the snow.

I expect $100 in Europe: a 5/10-minute walk to the lift, great breakfast, free parking, and no resort fees - at a great mountain. Even Whitewater, BC is more expensive than that....even with the exchange rate and staying in Nelson.

That does not always happen - but more than 50%. It's much cheaper to ski in Europe than in North America these days. And IKON/EPIC are now adding all these PARKING FEES!!!! Negates buying a pass.

 

[Sbooker]

I saw Christchurch is half the price, but that drive is tough.

I didn’t realise that flight has come down. Last time I looked it was more expensive. Still, to get a flight that doesn’t land in Christchurch at midnight it’s $850aud.
Given one has the time the drive is very scenic.

I expect $100 in Europe: a 5/10-minute walk to the lift, great breakfast, free parking, and no resort fees - at a great mountain.

You’re obviously far more skilled and experienced than I. I assume you are happy to go to a mountain in Europe that you’re unfamiliar with then evaluate conditions and go ahead and ski off piste without a guide?
It’s my only concern about going to Europe. That said I’m ok with skiing the low angle off piste areas between the pistes.

 

[Sbooker]

@ChrisC you are correct on Aspen. I just looked at lodging costs. They have increased a lot since I was last there in March 2020. There used to be some semi reasonable options.
The affordable options are now as expensive as Thredbo. Of course in Aspen it’s highly unlikely to rain. So I’ll take Aspen dollar for dollar.