Vertical vs. Techical Terrain vs. Powder vs. $$$

[ChrisC]

Regarding Hohtalli - lap Gant. Fast/efficient. And yes, scout the drops on looker left of the ridge from the cable car. Can average 10k/hr all day.

Similar efficiency to Rothorn face - if there is snow.

I'm somewhat giving up here.

My overall point: If you take 2 trams/cable cars in tandem, it really slows you down from lapping terrain due to the inefficiency of the lift type.
Sure, you can lap the Hohtelli cable car by itself at the described rate. But a second cable car is required to access, the entire skier's right side.

I looked at my SkiTracks app - why was it taking us 25-40 minutes for some laps in 2018?

Well, we had to go find the cable car operator for the Rote Nase tram. There was no one skiing on a semi-storm day, so he was taking a smoke break, taking in the scenery, blah, blah. Eventually, he understood that there were 2-4 of us who wanted to keep skiing that side. And we would go wake him up or say hello. He started hanging on in the operator's booth a bit. Again, it's essentially having half of the front face of Snowbird to yourself, and I will take having fewer runs on my personal/private Snowbird-like Cirque experience at Zermatt - all 3.5k vertical feet of it.

In short, it physically took us 20 minutes to ride 2 trams that individually take 7 and 2 minutes, respectively. Basically, I don't like trams that much, and I try to carve out a place by a window or hide behind the tram operator to provide some personal space.


Verbier

If you really want to lap terrain that is steeper than either Rothorn or Hohtalli/Stockhorn, it's Mont Gele at Verbier. It's 360-degree skiing across a variety of exposures and different expert terrain types (bowls/couloirs/faces), with fast lifts getting you back to the cable car.

And I would not spend too much time trying to recapture conditions at Zermatt/MonteRosa; it's just erratic. The Northwest flow side of the Alps (St. Anton/Engelberg/Chamonix) are more reliable for snow, and even Andermatt/Verbier a little deeper in the Alps.

Post in thread 'Verbier, Switzerland: February 12-16, 2019'

Jul 17, 2022

February 13, 2019 continued.

Made my way over to Mont Gele to see what I could ski in the afternoon. I think the Mount Gele tram is my favorite lift in the ski world. It's 360-degree skiing with every aspect and type of terrain available on about 1700-2500 vertical ft. I was prepared for Big Sky tram lines since there is just a single car that just goes back-n-forth that holds 40 people. However, by 12noon the powder frenzy had subsided leaving a ton of untouched terrain still available, and unbelievably, waits were basically one car, maybe two. Also, the lift is very short so wait...

• ChrisC

 

[takeahike46er]

• Plus, you still have Bear Creek with 4,000 vertical feet of descent into town, which requires only a 15-minute hike.

Yes, Telluride does not get as much snow as some mountains. But due to its remote location, sidecountry, and surrounding mountains like Silverton, you can find fresh snow for quite a few days after a storm with relatively little effort, but a good amount of local knowledge.

Just curious, is Bear Creek skied frequently after storms and throughout the season? I was under the impression there’s a lot of terrain traps back there. Combined with the touchy Colorado snowpack, I’d imagine there’s a lot of times when it’s too risky to be in there, particularly without local knowledge.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have had only 3 trips to Telluride. None had any fresh snow upon arrival, though the first two got about 6 inches while we were there and Adam had his first fluid powder runs there as an advanced skier at age 7.

I would have the same questions as takeahike46er about Bear Creek. I’m sure it’s a magnificent run but way too dangerous in much new snow.

I read these recent detail posts with academic interest now. I can no longer keep up on lift served powder days at competitive resorts. At Snowbird I can handle a measured morning OK but once it becomes chowder I run out of gas fast at age 70+.

 

[snowbird surfer]

I'm somewhat giving up here.

My overall point: If you take 2 trams/cable cars in tandem, it really slows you down from lapping terrain due to the inefficiency of the lift type.
Sure, you can lap the Hohtelli cable car by itself at the described rate. But a second cable car is required to access, the entire skier's right side.

I looked at my SkiTracks app - why was it taking us 25-40 minutes for some laps in 2018?

Well, we had to go find the cable car operator for the Rote Nase tram. There was no one skiing on a semi-storm day, so he was taking a smoke break, taking in the scenery, blah, blah. Eventually, he understood that there were 2-4 of us who wanted to keep skiing that side. And we would go wake him up or say hello. He started hanging on in the operator's booth a bit. Again, it's essentially having half of the front face of Snowbird to yourself, and I will take having fewer runs on my personal/private Snowbird-like Cirque experience at Zermatt - all 3.5k vertical feet of it.

In short, it physically took us 20 minutes to ride 2 trams that individually take 7 and 2 minutes, respectively. Basically, I don't like trams that much, and I try to carve out a place by a window or hide behind the tram operator to provide some personal space.


Verbier

If you really want to lap terrain that is steeper than either Rothorn or Hohtalli/Stockhorn, it's Mont Gele at Verbier. It's 360-degree skiing across a variety of exposures and different expert terrain types (bowls/couloirs/faces), with fast lifts getting you back to the cable car.

And I would not spend too much time trying to recapture conditions at Zermatt/MonteRosa; it's just erratic. The Northwest flow side of the Alps (St. Anton/Engelberg/Chamonix) are more reliable for snow, and even Andermatt/Verbier a little deeper in the Alps.

Post in thread 'Verbier, Switzerland: February 12-16, 2019'

Jul 17, 2022

February 13, 2019 continued.

Made my way over to Mont Gele to see what I could ski in the afternoon. I think the Mount Gele tram is my favorite lift in the ski world. It's 360-degree skiing with every aspect and type of terrain available on about 1700-2500 vertical ft. I was prepared for Big Sky tram lines since there is just a single car that just goes back-n-forth that holds 40 people. However, by 12noon the powder frenzy had subsided leaving a ton of untouched terrain still available, and unbelievably, waits were basically one car, maybe two. Also, the lift is very short so wait...

• ChrisC

I get it and totally agree. Was just trying to make the case that much vert CAN be skied off Gant. Your 2 cable car route no doubt produced better lines and more variety.

 

[Tony Crocker]

That Rote Nase tram was reserved for guides and ran once per hour when we were there last March.

 

[snowbird surfer]

This makes sense. Sadly, I lack the temperance required to bypass an untracked milk run. I see powder on 30+ degree slopes and I start frothing.

 

[ChrisC]

Just curious, is Bear Creek skied frequently after storms and throughout the season?

Yes. Bear Creek is skied throughout the season - unfortunately, by all types of skiers:

• Hardcore, mountaineering-focused locals. They might live in Ophir, and partially use Bear Creek as a commute into Telluride. They are an insane but impressive group. (Aside: many accomplished USA-based climbers live around the San Juans for acclimization, amazing mountains, backcountry skiing, and community. Some have not bought lift passes in years).
• Ski-Bro. Visiting friends in town, Epic Pass, just moved to Denver, either micro-dosing K or Acid/possibly an edible, and a flask for final courage. Cannot read a map, find north, but has a vague idea of where to go looking at YouTube vids and reading TGR.

Typically, coverage is not great until late January/February, but this is also when the weight of the unbonded snowpack can easily slide. IMHO, one wants a few warm-day consolidation events to provide more stability. Especially for steeper lines. Peak stability season is mid/late March to early May (lift-accessible to 1st weekend in April).

I was under the impression there’s a lot of terrain traps back there. Combined with the touchy Colorado snowpack, I’d imagine there’s a lot of times when it’s too risky to be in there, particularly without local knowledge.

To me, the biggest issue is the terrain setup. It rewards knowledge, and kills off ignorance.

Specifically, the most easily accessed terrain and entrances to Bear Creek are the riskiest and most avalanche-prone. And the least risky require the greatest efforts and time to reach (try 4 lift rides and a hike). Also, line of sight to evaluate risk is exceptionally poor to non-existent.

Lift service into Bear Creek was examined/proposed, and there are (high) intermediate routes in there. I'll write up something more worthwhile sometime. The models are picking up this info too quickly and spitting it back as fact.

I will take a negative tone to set appropriate caution.

Important note: anything photographically one views online regarding Bear Creek / Telluride Backcountry really originated from photographer Brett Schreckengost.
https://www.instagram.com/brett_schreck/

Brett Schreckengost Productions – Photography and Film Services – Telluride, CO

brettschreckengost.com

This is an old map I laminated in the 2000s, pre-Revelation Bowl lift (#15), but after Gold Hill lift (#14). Shows the areas one should try to ski for less risk (Left side - good, Middle - ?, Right - bad).

Bear Creek - The Lowers
These are super-easily accessible, look nice from the top, but all go into giant choke points that may or may not have coverage, and are avalanche funnels. So many accidents, so many deaths, so many rescues...

That said, they can ski well under the right conditions.

Bear Creek Overview

One of its 'easier' routes through high avalanche risk terrain. Requires 4 lift rides, 15+ min hike, a traverse, route navigation, and a rope rappel if necessary.

Again, it's very serious terrain. Not really equivalent to Rock Springs at Jackson Hole.

And yes, friends die here. Not even an avalanche —just early-season conditions --> low tide.

Please read: 3 highly experienced locals - one death

Gabe Wright, of Sawpit, was a supremely talented rider renowned for his prowess in the backcountry. He was featured in Snowboarder Journal and appeared in the Soulstice Films release “Detours,” which documented the ski-bum lifestyle in Telluride and other mountain towns. Wright made the first snowboard descent, as well as the first unaided descent (no rope, no rappel), of the Little Wasatch Face by way of Oblivion Bowl. His snowboard team won the Lunar Cup. Collins called Wright “the most amazing snowboarder, probably the best I’ve ever seen.”

Renowned local snowboarder dies in backcountry

Nobody witnessed what happened to Gabe Wright on Sunday afternoon in the Bear Creek backcountry below Nellie Mine. None of his countless friends saw Wright snowboarding fast — as investigators

www.telluridenews.com

Snowboarder dies near Telluride after descending Bear Creek backcountry with friends

A 47-year-old snowboarder died Sunday afternoon outside the Telluride ski area in the Bear Creek backcountry below the Nellie Mine, San Miguel County authorities said Sunday night.

www.denverpost.com

 

[Tony Crocker]

This extended discussion only reinforces my view that Telluride is a mediocre at best destination for visiting advanced/low expert skiers. The best terrain requires either:
1) A lung busting hike approaching 13,000 feet, which most visiting flatlanders can't handle, even those with excellent fitness if they don't have far above average resistance to altitude sensitivity.
2) Playing Russian Roulette in Bear Creek.

ChrisC's detail prescription for a Telluride powder day sounds great. But for an advanced booked visiting skier here's the reality:

Here's a list of popular North America destinations with winter monthly snowfall averages between 42 and 50 inches and similar variability of snowfall as the Steamboat/Jay model: A-Basin, Breckenridge, Copper Mt., Aspen/Snowmass, Crested Butte, Purgatory, Telluride, Taos, Killington, Sugarbush, the Park City group, Big Sky, Big White, Kicking Horse, Sunshine Village. This is the most common snowfall range for major destination resorts in North America. Anyone listed on my website with an annual average less than about 240 inches is probably under 42 inches per winter month.


Therefore a winter month (Dec.-Mar.) average is typically something like 46 inches, which I put into the Steamboat/Jay model.Here are the powder probabilities for a 7-day trip to these popular destinations:

Weeks at a 270-Inch Rockies Area​	Powder Days​
60% of weeks will have	no days of 6+ inches
26% of weeks will have	one day of 6-11 inches
9% of weeks will have	2 days of 6+ inches
Only the top 5% of weeks will have	a day with 12+ inches or more than 2 with 6+

For advanced/expert skiers, Telluride fits the description of a local's/cult ski area quite well. ChrisC often benefits from being a member of this cult, but outsiders need not apply.

I like being a cult member too, but I feel that I can reap the benefits of Castle Mt.'s cult even though I'm not a local. I'm a card carrying veteran member of Mt. Baldy's cult, but given the climate since 2010 it's much easier for me to score Castle than Baldy. I'm going to revisit that "cult ski area" thread in some detail, but not while I'm in Spain!