wildcat, nh- 4-5 , waterville nh, 4-6

NHpowderhound

New member
Riverc0il wrote
yea, my comment in this discussion are fraudulent. go blow joe, i am officially done with any discussion on this topic on this forum. joe, if you want to advocate this position as strongly as you are doing, i suggest being less antagonizing, more civil, and less passionate. you just come off as a pompus ass. but alienating those offering conciliatory comments you have good points and a legitiment position is not going to further your cause nor change people's opinions. good luck to you, you are going to need it with your attitude.
All these reasons that River points out is why I wont post replies or even read your reports Joe. Today I made an exception because I feel it needs to be said. You arent nice to people that offer thier opinions. Personally I think all the name dropping you do is pretty lame. Stop being such a crybaby and make the best of what you've got.
I encourage anyone reading this to stop reading joegm's posts and to not reply to them until he learns how to be nice to people. This has gone on for too long. Stop attacking the users of this site just because they offer an opinion. I wish the moderators would step in. Nobody deserves the bashing you give just for offering an opinion.
((*
*))NHPH
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
NHpowderhound":2cupo09m said:
I wish the moderators would step in.

At this point I don't perceive the need to. As all of the participants well know, this is a spat between pupils at a daycare clinic compared to what we've seen elsewhere. Rest assured that I, for one, would step in if things head in that direction...but participants here seem to know better than to let it get that way. :wink:
 

nymous

New member
a seeded blue and black bump line should be on the same level of priority as , a half pipe, rails , booters kickers, glade runs, natural bump runs, tubing runs , hot todie runs and whatever the hell else resorts in the east do. but they are not, and i dare say it's because of attitudes and perceptions like renson's.

Unfortuately, all those other items attract far more people to resorts than a seeded bump run, which, according to general concensus (at least on this website) would only attract you.
 

cj

New member
First, I would just like to say that we must realize that we are all skiers here and passionate about our sport. I for example, did not start off as a mogul skier, but became one after gaining interest in the 90's, having skied groomers and steeps for 15+ years. I was drawn to mogul skiing because of the challenge, and as a result I pursued proper coaching and mogul techniques and it became an addiction. There are many different aspects of skiing, some of which I don't care for, however, I realize that they are still part of our sport. Not everyone cares for mogul skiing, just as not everyone cares for parks, pipes, groomers, etc., but we are all still skiers and love our sport.

Secondly, we all tend to be defensive about our partcular discipline of skiing, myself included. I think that I can speak for the majority of bump skiers out there (when I use this term, I am speaking of those that have a one track mind about it and for the most part only ski bumps) when I say that we sometimes feel like second class citizens while the rest of the ski population is catered to (massive grooming efforts, parks, pipes, etc). All we ask is that terrain be provided for us as well. The whole mountain does not have to be bumps (Mary Jane... mmmm) , but there should be at least 1 skiable bump run at any given mountain on any given day. If the resorts make this effort, maybe, just maybe the masses will learn to enjoy mogul skiing more, instead of dreading it and beating themselves up in the bumps.

The unfortunate thing is that mogul skiing is misunderstood by a vast majority of the skiing population. Yes, it is a very physical sport, but it also requires years of practice, dedication, education, and technique to become a good mogul skier. I have spoken to many advanced/expert skiers who enjoy skiing bumps, but who I would not consider bump skiers and even these folks are often misinformed about the many aspects of mogul skiing. The frustration for the small population of us "mogul skiers" comes from the fact that in order to have truly good mogul lines, you have to have good bump skiers to not only make them (I am refering to natural moguls here), but to also keep them consistent and skiable. If you have ever been to a mountain that has more than a few mogul skiers, you will notice that the lines are almost always good and consistent, because you have the same good mogul skiers skiing those lines day after day, week after week. Another unfortunate reality of mogul skiing is that truly "good" mogul skiers typically have been professionally coached in one way or another; this takes time, money, and a committment that most skiers are not willing to make. (This is simply a statement based on my own observations and is not meant to inflate or degrade the abilities or intentions of ANY skier out there, as everyone has there own level of enjoyment and achievement in the sport of skiing).

The reality is that there are so few mountains that have such a population of mogul skiers that seeded bumps are the answer to good consistent lines. Also, aside from setting up a comp course, seeded bumps only need to be made once in a while and then touched up with natural snow or man made snow, thus eliminating the need for constant maintenance. Yes, they will get deep, but so do natural moguls. Locally, I have skied seeded bumps that have been really deep, unfortunately the masses complain that they are getting too difficult because their technique is not up to snuff for these conditions, thus they are torn down. As far as slipping... it is useful but not necessary. If you have a couple of people ski the line in a bunch of times, the lines will get skied in and rounded out, provided that there are good bump skier doing this.

Just imagine, these conversations/posts would not even take place if our mountains had just 1 good bump run. It's amazing how the frustration goes away when you go out to your local hill and have a great bump day. But if the bumps are torn down the next day, the frustration is back. Personally, I don't really care if the people sking the bumps can ski or not, just as long as they don't destroy the bumps or get in my way (but this is a topic for another post). As long as I am able to enjoy and challenge myself, I am happy. I don't really care if some guy goes down the same line that I am skiing all in the back seat and breaking at the waist and thinks he looks good and is "skiing bumps". What I care about is if I am doing it right and that I have the terrain to train on.

If there is a perception out there that seeded bumps are easy, I suggest that those folks take a look at any course that has been skied after 1 day of competition , or better yet head up to Blackcomb Glacier in the summer after they have been skied for 3+ days.

As far as the name dropping, I would not consider it as such. Please understand that the mogul skiing community/culture is very tight knit and small, and most everybody knows somebody either directly or through another mogul skiing friend. This is definately a unique aspect of the mogul skiing culture as compared to other disciplines in skiing.

Well, I know this was a long post, but hopefully I did not offend anyone and also shed some light on the things that not only frustrate mogul skiers, but that make us happy as well. In the end, it is important that we all have the means to enjoy what we like to do best while on skis, whether it be trees, bumps, etc.

cj
 

Mark Renson

New member
Thanx CJ (are you CJ Turner?), I enjoyed your post. I happen to think that bump skiing is an important part of skiing. One of my highlights from watching the Olympics over the years was watching Donna Weinbrecht get the Gold in the 1992 Olympics.

Like, ummm .....guys, I was only asking for some specifics about seeded bump runs (I admit it, I was born yesterday though not this morning) and I threw in a whimsical and irreverant remark (like I do with everything) or 2 about Burpee. Geeeeez, if it would make everyone feel better, I'm sorry with sugar on it and I deeply and sincerely mean it from the deep down bottom of my heart.

Back to droning .......it's a holiday day and I'm droning :roll:

Mark
http://www.burpee.com/ (Check it out! 49 new exciting products for 2006!)
 

cj

New member
Mark Renson":m8hy2eu7 said:
Thanx CJ (are you CJ Turner?), I enjoyed your post. I happen to think that bump skiing is an important part of skiing. One of my highlights from watching the Olympics over the years was watching Donna Weinbrecht get the Gold in the 1992 Olympics.

Like, ummm .....guys, I was only asking for some specifics about seeded bump runs (I admit it, I was born yesterday though not this morning) and I threw in a whimsical and irreverant remark (like I do with everything) or 2 about Burpee. Geeeeez, if it would make everyone feel better, I'm sorry with sugar on it and I deeply and sincerely mean it from the deep down bottom of my heart.

Back to droning .......it's a holiday day and I'm droning :roll:

Mark
http://www.burpee.com/ (Check it out! 49 new exciting products for 2006!)

Nope, not CJ Turner... don't know who that is. I am just a 30 something guy trying to do my best in progressing in the sport of mogul skiing. But I wish there were bumps seeds, because I would plant them all over the mountain!

However, there was a company in Germany that was making plastic modular moguls that snapped together, and all you needed was a light layer of snow in between. The only problem is that they were not very big or deep... but a cool idea.

Later,

cj
 

Patrick

Active member
Admin":6ugfgi95 said:
NHpowderhound":6ugfgi95 said:
I wish the moderators would step in.

At this point I don't perceive the need to.

I agree with Admin on this one. What I like about this forum is that you can write and speak your mind here without the posts being censure.

For those that I have been around here for a few years, we all know how Joe is passionate about his opinions. This doesn't mean I always agree with them, but I find that his contributions and other make a great variety of opinions contribute into making the "No-Bull" what it is today.
 

cj

New member
After a re-read of this thread, I agree that it takes minimal effort to make and maintain seeded bumps. At one of my local resorts, they simply groom in rollers or piles of snow across the trail and then take the snowmobiles and zig-zag through the rollers to make the zipper lines. It takes them all of about 2 hours. As far as maintenance, they do nothing but blow snow on them and they are fine. If we do have a stretch of weather where they can't make snow and the bumps happen to get deep and icy, they will tear them down because the gapers, *SPOREs, and wannabes start to get hurt. Other than that, they are just left to go and 99% of the time they are great (unless it really ices up).

Also, to most very high level (competitior level) bump skiers, seeded bumps are not impure, but an ideal learning environment for perfecting technique. Having said that, I have seen occasions where it is easier for the masses to get away with bad technique on seeded bumps (just as it is on natural bumps on those soft snow days), but that does not make them easier or require less technique. When the bumps are like that I like to use the words "being able to get away with murder" and "today everyone is a hero".

* (For those of you that do not know what a SPORE is, it means Stupid People On Rental Equipment).

Have a great weekend and those of you that will be skiing, count yourselves lucky!

cj
 

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
I wouldn't have known what a seeded bump run was if I hadn't read it here, as I've probably never seen one in the West except when I attended the Men's Mogul comp at Deer Valley during the 2002 Olympics.

I can make a few suggestions of western trips to expand joegm's horizons while providing perhaps even a better bump fix that he gets at home or in summer camp. Mary Jane has already been mentioned here. Sun Valley and Telluride also come to mind. Mary Jane and Telluride are in full operation in close to prime condition during their closing weeks in April when most eastern skiers are dodging dirt patches on the handful of runs still open. Sun Valley is more like an eastern area, but with 2000+ vertical fall lines that will test endurance with your bump technique. There are many other examples, Gunbarrel at Heavenly, West Face of KT-22 at Squaw, Prima/Pronto at Vail, Face of Bell at Aspen, etc.

I would be interested in how joegm or cj think these famous long and natural western bump runs compare to seeded moguls or summer camps.
 

cj

New member
I would be interested in how joegm or cj think these famous long and natural western bump runs compare to seeded moguls or summer camps

Tony,

First off, no seeded bump run that I have seen compares to anything of real value at MJ. MJ is mecca... plain and simple. Some of the more mellow stuff like the lowers of Arrowhead, Derailer, or Sterling may compare to seeded bumps in the east, but that's about it. Even runs like Gandy Dancer, although not steep, have much deeper and tighter bumps that anything that is typical of the east. It's funny, you ski on the WP side and those runs are like a lot of bump runs out west... or east for that matter (places like Steamboat, K'ton etc), but as soon as you go to the REAL terrain at the Jane, you realize what that place is all about. There is only one reason or this... they have so many great bump skiers there.

For those folks that have never skied MJ, it's like trying to describe sex to a virgin. That place has so much varied terrain and THE BEST bumps probably anywhere in the world (this information was actually obtained from one of the best bump skiers and coaches in the world when I asked him what the best bump mountain was, and he has skied all over the world on the WC). It also has some incredibly demanding mogul terrain that is steep, deep, tight, and long. No where have I ever seen bumps so tight on steep runs like at MJ... Upper Golden Spike is a great example. Yes, the runs there and elsewhere out west are much longer and altitude is always an issue for us easterners, which makes it more difficult to ski at peak performance.

So that brings me to the seeded bumps on the Glacier. The runs are short, very similar in length to eastern skiing and competition courses. However, the bumps are deep and tight and as perfect as it gets. If you were to take the same size section of Highline at Vail (they are about the same steepness) and compare it to the bumps on the Glacier, the bumps on the glacier are deeper and tighter and thus in my mind more difficult and require better technique.

Another comparison that I can offer that you have brought up in the past is Taos. Taos is one of my favorite places to ski, and has some incredibly steep and demanding terrain (oh, and the snow... second to none, but the Wasatch may be close), but the bumps there are not very technically demanding and expert skiers with mogul technique that is not the best can get away with skiing the bumps on Winston, Walkeryes, Al's, etc with what I would consider to be "sloppy" technique. I would also say the same for Snowbird, the Beve, etc.

Now, if I could have my way, I would live in WP and ski there most of the time, with the occasional change of scenery of skiing at the other nearby resorts such as Summit Co, Vail/the Beve, Steamboat, Aspen, etc... and of course I would hike Berthoud on occasion.

MJ is the true reality check for the bumper. One may rip at the local hill out east, but if you can hang with the best at MJ, then you are truly a great bump skier. Funny thing is that I skied with a couple of guys from K'ton this past Feb (they also happen to be some of the best adult bump skiers at K'ton) and 2 of them had never skied MJ before. Guess what, they ripped there too... because they had great technique. Great technique is what makes a great bump skier, whether it is skiing Frenchman's at the Jane, or a seeded blue/black run at the resort of your choice out east.

I have never skied Telluride, but have heard that they have a few bump runs that are of very high quality.

Even though this is just my opinion, I hope it gave you some insight as to an Eastern bumpers take of the west.

cj
 

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
Surely joegm must be considering a trip to Mary Jane after that testimonial. Thank you for a very informed answer to my question.

I was just telling John Nash at Mammoth about my formative years there after skiing Scotty's. On the major open bowls on Mammoth's upper mountain the line with the least pitch will inevitably attract the most people and grow the largest bumps of varying quality. Very early on I discovered that the steeper and more technical lines retained the best snow and I developed a strong preference for the "smooth and steep," be it in powder, packed powder, windbuff or spring corn. The exception is what I call "summer conditions," where the snow doesn't freeze overnight, lightly trafficked areas will be rotten, and skier packed bumps are then most enjoyable (at least to me). These are the conditions I had in late April 1990 at Killington and mid March 2003 at Mad River. At Mammoth in May/June it still freezes overnight about 2/3 of the time, and when it doesn't management will salt the groomed runs to create a similar effect.

Since I don't spend a lot of time looking for bumps I'm quite sure my technique is deficient. I've only spent 2 days at WP/MJ and I wasn't that impressed because they doesn't have much of the steep alpine or glades that I value most at western ski areas. The bumps were probably less enjoyable to me than something like Highline at Vail. If I ever return I will keep this post in mind, watch the bump aficionados on MJ's runs and see if I can learn something.
 

cj

New member
Tony Crocker":mdmmi6y9 said:
Surely joegm must be considering a trip to Mary Jane after that testimonial. Thank you for a very informed answer to my question.

I was just telling John Nash at Mammoth about my formative years there after skiing Scotty's. On the major open bowls on Mammoth's upper mountain the line with the least pitch will inevitably attract the most people and grow the largest bumps of varying quality. Very early on I discovered that the steeper and more technical lines retained the best snow and I developed a strong preference for the "smooth and steep," be it in powder, packed powder, windbuff or spring corn. The exception is what I call "summer conditions," where the snow doesn't freeze overnight, lightly trafficked areas will be rotten, and skier packed bumps are then most enjoyable (at least to me). These are the conditions I had in late April 1990 at Killington and mid March 2003 at Mad River. At Mammoth in May/June it still freezes overnight about 2/3 of the time, and when it doesn't management will salt the groomed runs to create a similar effect.

Since I don't spend a lot of time looking for bumps I'm quite sure my technique is deficient. I've only spent 2 days at WP/MJ and I wasn't that impressed because they doesn't have much of the steep alpine or glades that I value most at western ski areas. The bumps were probably less enjoyable to me than something like Highline at Vail. If I ever return I will keep this post in mind, watch the bump aficionados on MJ's runs and see if I can learn something.

Hey Tony,

I know the "slurpy" snow all too well. In southern PA where I ski locally, we get that all the time and it makes for great soft slushy bumps. As you pointed out it is like summer snow. The snow on the Blackcomb Glacier is just like that (and they do salt the courses).

One other thing... MJ just cut in some new tree runs off of the Challenger chair last year. I did not get to ski them in Feb , but I have a very reliable local source that said that on a powder day they are the bomb! There is also a lot of good technical steep stuff up on the Cirque and Vasquez, but you have to hike. If I were going to ski steeps though, I would go to Taos... that place rocks. I have also heard that when Berthoud was open, it had some rediculously steep terrain that was easy to access. They still ski there, but only by hiking and snowmobile. It is just so sad to drive up to WP and see that place all closed up. Man, now I wish that I would have taken at least 1 day in all those years away from the MJ bumps and gone there. Perhaps one day I will be able to check it out with one of the locals I know there.

FWIW, if you go back to MJ, a lot of the high level skiers there are the young whipper snappers that are on the CU Freestyle team (they have the best college bump/freestyle team in the country) and they just rip. Plus there are so many ex-US Ski Team (and retired WC bumpers from other nations) there that it is just fun to watch them ski.

cj
 

JimG.

New member
Wow! Such passion.

No other sport on Earth inspires this kind of passion. I love it!

I love bumps. And as much as I dislike the "McMountaining" of snow sports, I'm a big fan of seeded bump lines. Best way to learn to ski bumps properly, no question about it.

Then again, I love powder, natural snow trails, hike/skiing, etc. I'll take it all.

Joe is a passionate bump skier and there's nothing wrong with that. Bumpers are treated with less respect than most sliders at any resort. Bump lines are mowed down daily, and there are less mogul options available than in the past. Makes me feel picked on sometimes too.

I think that's what Joe feels like. So let's all pardon his frustration and try to understand and help a brother out.

Nuff said.
 

NHpowderhound

New member
There is nothing wrong with passion or frustration. But to attack someone who has taken the time and effort to respond to a post is wrong. Why would anyone want to post a response on this board if they are going to get lambasted because they may share a differnt point of view.
((*
*))NHPH
 

JimG.

New member
NHpowderhound":qnvxw3e3 said:
There is nothing wrong with passion or frustration. But to attack someone who has taken the time and effort to respond to a post is wrong. Why would anyone want to post a response on this board if they are going to get lambasted because they may share a differnt point of view.
((*
*))NHPH

I'm not disagreeing with you...just trying to point out that the "attack" was probably caused by passion and frustration, as well as the possibility that past responses in other threads were viewed as "attacks" too.

It always takes 2 to tango, and sometimes folks don't even know they're part of the dance.
 

NHpowderhound

New member
JimG wrote
I'm not disagreeing with you...just trying to point out that the "attack" was probably caused by passion and frustration
Are we still talking about skiing or the war in Iraq? :wink:
((*
*))NHPH
 

joegm

New member
NHPH- there was no "attack"
river made a statement that essentially said that seeded bumps required all sorts of things/expenditures that, in fact, they don't...
the statement is wrong
i pointed it out
if the tone was harsh, jimg addresses that
 

JimG.

New member
joegm":21kxmg83 said:
if the tone was harsh, jimg addresses that

We get tied up in our passions and in the process of defending our position, we sometimes use a tone that is harsh. I've gotta watch that too, I can be equally guilty of doing it.

When they mowed down the bump course at Hunter on March 22 I went totally nuts. It was a weekday and I went right to the base lodge and marched to the main office to register my venomous complaint.

But by the time I got to the door I had calmed myself down enough to be diplomatic. I got an honest answer...they had bowed to pressure from a well connected group of passholders. I actually got some understanding from management.

You always catch more flys with honey.
 

Patrick

Active member
JimG.":12920hxd said:
they had bowed to pressure from a well connected group of passholders. I actually got some understanding from management.

I always said that what the masses want is not always good. Do you want radio stations to be playing Celine Dion 24/7???

Keep it diverse and ditch Celine... :p

That makes me think of that passholders that was with me in the Madonna lift at Smuggs lamenting about the double. "I always ask management to replace it with a new detachable quad...this is is so slow and the lineup are long" He seemed surprised when I said I liked it and it would be a shame to install a greater capacity lift on Madonna.
 

Mark Renson

New member
cj":20vnle61 said:
Nope, not CJ Turner... don't know who that is. I am just a 30 something guy trying to do my best in progressing in the sport of mogul skiing. But I wish there were bumps seeds, because I would plant them all over the mountain!

However, there was a company in Germany that was making plastic modular moguls that snapped together, and all you needed was a light layer of snow in between. The only problem is that they were not very big or deep... but a cool idea.

CJ Turner was a somewhat prominent bump skier from the early 1990's who shredded 'em mostly at Killington. Nice guy. From southern New Hampshire. I recall he was on the Pro Mogul Tour ....does that exist anymore?

Heh, I find this thread odd in that it suggests that bump skiing isn't respected at many areas. Like, when I skied at Killington from the early 1980's through mid 1990's they were the Kings/Queens of The Hill. What the hell is goin' on at some of these places? Must be envy of bump skiers and their capabilities, I guess.
 
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