Xmas Week Question

jasoncapecod

Well-known member
My wife and I are planing to take the family out West over Xmas break. Yes I know it's not the perfect time to go, but it's our only time.
Strangely enough Continental is letting us use our FF miles. So far the cheapest flight have been to Reno, Albuquerque and Denver. Oddly , SLC was the most expensive.

I'm am leaning towards Reno, I have never been to Tahoe . I would love to go to NM but the snow volatility is high..
My question is , on a average year. Hows the skiing around Christmas time in Tahoe?
 
hopefully a tahoe local can put an answer to that ! here it's usually the first big money maker if it's been snowing at all .
 
I have analyzed historical records for Mammoth in some detail for this question, which illustrates the impact of Sierra snowfall volatility:

December 15 is probably the median date for which Mammoth becomes worth the trip for me, based upon the historical data of opening terrain. But terrain usually doesn't open gradually because Sierra storms tend to be erratic but large. Mammoth will often go from <20% open to >70% after one substantial storm.

42-Year Data
For Dec. 1
36% of the time 20% or less of the mountain is open
31% of the time 25-40% of the mountain is open
19% of the time 50-80% of the mountain is open
14% of the time 90+% of the mountain is open
For Dec. 15:
17% of the time 20% or less of the mountain is open
21% of the time 25-40% of the mountain is open
24% of the time 50-80% of the mountain is open
38% of the time 90+% of the mountain is open
For Jan. 1:
10% of the time 20% or less of the mountain is open
7% of the time 25-40% of the mountain is open
16% of the time 50-80% of the mountain is open
67% of the time 90+% of the mountain is open
For Jan. 15:
5% of the time 20% or less of the mountain is open
7% of the time 25-40% of the mountain is open
9% of the time 50-80% of the mountain is open
79% of the time 90+% of the mountain is open
For Feb. 1:
5% of the time 20% or less of the mountain is open
5% of the time 25-40% of the mountain is open
5% of the time 50-80% of the mountain is open
85% of the time 90+% of the mountain is open


How does Tahoe compare? Most of the places on the Sierra Crest get more snow, but all of them except Kirkwood are much lower and thus get occasional rain and do not preserve as well. Overall I'd say Kirkwood might be a touch more reliable early season than Mammoth and Sugar Bowl and Alpine similar to Mammoth. Elsewhere I think there may be as much of a 1/3 probability of less than half terrain being open, which is not the way I would bet premium-priced holiday $.

The big places, Squaw and Heavenly, are among the least promising. Squaw, because it's so steep and needs 6+ feet of coverage for much of its terrain. Heavenly is leeward of the Sierra Crest and gets less snow. Mott/Killibrew Canyons open on average in late January.

Your instincts are correct that NM is a really bad idea that early in the season. Denver is more consistent but overall I'd be inclined to take my my chances with Tahoe because of the flip side of that volatility. The top 1/3 of Christmases at Tahoe are full operation with far deeper snowpacks than you ever see that early in Colorado. The exception would be Steamboat, which has an excellent early season record, better than Mammoth's. Vail's is quite good too, but I'm guessing you're not willing to pay Vail holiday prices. Summit County has lesser snowfall/likely terrain open and the worst crowds.

With respect to crowds at Tahoe, traffic is the most chronic issue when it's busy. If you can get your group organized in the morning and arrive very early at the ski area of your choice, it's usually manageable. In terms of on-the-mountain Heavenly's awkward layout and location near the cheapest and most abundant lodging make it the least pleasant Tahoe area when it's busy IMHO.

So within your FF choices I would vote Steamboat first (rent a car and drive the ~4 hours from Denver) and Reno/Tahoe second. If you do Tahoe be aware that you'll be daytripping in the car nearly every day and need to be organized for that, possibly including 4WD. An alternative is to rent the car in Reno and drive 3+ hours to Mammoth, where you won't require daily commuting (shuttle buses are available) and somewhat better snow reliability as detailed above. Crowd/congestion issues at Mammoth Christmas week are not bad for the advanced upper areas, but it's very congested for low end skiers around the lodges. Recall a few years back GPaul spent 2 weeks in the Sierra over the holidays enjoying Mammoth much more than Tahoe.

SLC is vastly superior to any of the above for Christmas week.
1) Snow reliability in LCC/BCC is much better.
2) SLC is a city so holiday price gouging for lodging is mitigated (true to some extent for Reno also).
3) More and better secondary ski areas are available to escape crowds in Utah.
4) Daytrip car commuting is much less congested and/or subject to weather issues than at Tahoe.

Crunch the numbers and you may find it's better to go to Salt Lake and use the FF miles some other time.
 
Great analysis Tony. I don't care what those LLC boys always say about you, I appreciate your attention to detail.

And just for fun, I looked up MY log to see what last December 15th was like here at Mt Bachelor. Verbatum:

"8" new overnight, 15" in the last 72 hrs, 82" at mid-mountain with 185" total. Good snow on Outback".

Looks like the Summit opened for the first time the next day and it must have been good. And somehow I met Sally and we went skate skiing at/with the Dog Ovals down at Wanoga Snow Park (elev 5400'). That was a memorable December.

Here is my report with pics from December 17th:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9247

Then it snowed another 17" over the weekend!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9249

and...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9251
 
Tony Crocker":3gxokm9n said:
ithin your FF choices I would vote Steamboat first (rent a car and drive the ~4 hours from Denver)

This is my only quibble with your analysis. It's only 2.5 Hrs for a local and I'd add ~half hour more for someone new to the drive and probably also 'enjoying the scenery' more than a local would...

Here's my reference report for the 'Boat for Jason if he's interested... Christmas of 2008 with the family:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7408&p=39863&hilit=steamboat#p39863
 
I was going to suggest looking up EMSC's Steamboat Christmas trip. That drive might be <3 hours for him, but for the tourist the new Denver airport being out there in the prairie adds to the travel time.

Mt. Bachelor is high on the list of Christmas reliability in terms of snow cover and also high on the lists for crowd avoidance and comparatively reasonable cost. Skiing is a bit limited if weather keeps Summit shut though. Jason should check to see whether he can use his miles to get to Portland or Redmond. My first time at Bachelor was 3 days during Christmas week of 1985. Summit was open all 3 days and it was by far the most pleasant of the 3 times I've skied destination resorts during Christmas week, which in general I avoid.

I should have asked the nature of Jason's group in terms of age, ski abilities, etc.
 
Just traveling with my family
Wife who is a advanced beginner.
my 2 daughters 14/17
the older one is a high school racer and can handle just about anything and the 14yr old is a strong upper intermediate..

The reason why Tahoe/Reno area works for us is, if there is rain in Tahoe . My guess it's not raining in Mammoth. The 4hr ride is not a big deal. Also if we get totally stiffed no snow etc..We can drive to San Fran.

I would love to ski Bachelor. It's a expensive trip from the NYC area..
 
Or, Jason, you could just stay home, save some money, and ski on the three trails of manmade ice that are the (usual) conditions at Northeast ski areas during the Christmas holiday.
:rotfl:
 
I would love to ski Bachelor. It's a expensive trip from the NYC area..
This is exactly the type of trip you use FF miles for. Mileage is usually a flat rate within continental US. Paid tickets are cheaper to metro area airports like like SLC, Denver, Reno. Ergo you get bigger bang for the FF miles into the out-of-the-way places. If you can live with the Reno-to-Mammoth drive, you can handle Portland-to-Bend no problem.

Bachelor is far superior to Mammoth for Christmas week:
1) Much less congestion
2) Cheaper lodging and lift tickets
3) More consistent snowfall, drought probability less than half as much I'd guess.
4) Mammoth's advantage is more really steep terrain. In your group this will be relevant only to the older daughter. There's more than enough varied terrain overall at Bachelor that the rest of you might not even notice.

Whistler's early season reliability is excellent. Unfortunately it has some of the most severe holiday price gouging for lodging.

I have to ask, only one week vacation for the high schoolers? If you have 2 weeks like most people, choose the week that avoids Dec. 26 - Jan. 1 as much as possible.
 
I have to ask, only one week vacation for the high schoolers? If you have 2 weeks like most people, choose the week that avoids Dec. 26 - Jan. 1 as much as possible.

The kiddies are off from the 24th thru Jan 2...
I would love to avoid this week, but that's not in the cards..

i'm also considering Jackson Hole/ GT..

I understand SLC is the most reliable, but we have been there and the wife and kids would like to go somewhere else..

I do appreciate all the advice..
 
High school is unfortunately the age where even an addict like me draws the line about kids being out of school more than a day or two. With that short a Christmas break, do they get a February week like some of the easterners? I'm sure they get a spring break, and I've advocated numerous times that is much better for families for snow, crowd and cost considerations. If you're skiing Christmas instead of those alternatives, you're making a mistake and spending needless $ IMHO. If you're skiing the other vacation week(s) in addition, hopefully the advice provided here is helpful.

i'm also considering Jackson Hole/ GT..
This is another "bang for the buck" FF miles alternative. Don't forget Idaho Falls as the possible destination airport there. Jackson's Christmas snow record is fairly decent, especially considering how steep it is. Better than Squaw's, not quite as good as Snowbird's. Jackson does have a very inefficient lift system that does not handle crowds well though. It's getting a new chair this year that should help some. http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2011/0 ... t-thunder/

Targhee, as noted many times, is the only ski area with a 100% Christmas reliability record.

I would choose Bachelor or Jackson/Targhee over Reno or Denver for Christmas. Off the beaten track is better for crowds and for getting the most out of the mileage. Bachelor is the best fit for your family IMHO.
 
jasoncapecod":4hxw6tat said:
What about Whistler? It's pretty reliable at that time.

I would love to go to Whistler. The flights to Vancouver are soooo expensive..And my FF miles are a no go outside of the US
What about flying to Seattle and driving from there? I've done that before and although it's a 4 hour drive from Seattle it's well worth the cost difference, especially given that Whistler is an hour and forty-five minutes from Vancouver anyhow...
 
rfarren":12774l1o said:
What about flying to Seattle and driving from there? I've done that before and although it's a 4 hour drive from Seattle it's well worth the cost difference, especially given that Whistler is an hour and forty-five minutes from Vancouver anyhow...
In planning, allow 5 hrs from Seattle (it could take even more) - you never know how long the boarder crossing will take and the traffic getting through Vancouver is always a crap-shoot.
 
Tony Crocker":1qgtryrh said:
Targhee, as noted many times, is the only ski area with a 100% Christmas reliability record.
I've strongly suggested to Jason backchannel to bag the other options and make tracks to Grand Targhee/JH/Snow King. The region will certainly have Xmas traffic, but nothing compared to some of the other places mentioned here.
1. Grand Targhee offers SLC-level snow reliability, perfect terrain for his family, and comparatively reasonable on-mountain accomms.
2. Jackson is a cute town with tons of restaurants and shopping (which is a consideration for his traveling partners), all sorts of hotel options, and I hear that Jackson Hole is a decent ski area. :-"
3. Snow King is a great town hill that's perfect for arrival/departure days and big-wind events across town.

The only potential negative for the trip is hitting a major storm when you go over Teton Pass. For seasoned drivers from the northeast, it's not a huge issue. The real challenge (like anywhere else) is keeping an eye out for destination-visitor drivers who don't know how to deal with snow.
 
jamesdeluxe":2686sx7z said:
The only potential negative for the trip is hitting a major storm when you go over Teton Pass. For seasoned drivers from the northeast, it's not a huge issue. The real challenge (like anywhere else) is keeping an eye out for destination-visitor drivers who don't know how to deal with snow.
And keeping informed as to whether the pass is open.
 
jamesdeluxe":2qdyeqie said:
I've strongly suggested to Jason backchannel to bag the other options and make tracks to Grand Targhee/JH/Snow King. The region will certainly have Xmas traffic, but nothing compared to some of the other places mentioned here.

Skiid GT Christmas Day and the next three days afterwards a couple of years ago, and while it was a bit busier than usual, it was not a scene at all. Fresh snow every day too. I'd go with GT/Jackson too.
 
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