First time Europe. Looking for insight.

jnelly

Member
Hello all. I have been reading thru some of the posts about skiing in Europe and it seems there are a few in here with excellent knowledge on it. I wonder if you wouldn’t mind helping a guy out a bit. I am beginning to pour over my first trip to EU for skiing and have found the amount of information and locations to be daunting. I wonder if I can give you my bullet points if anyone would be willing to help me zero in on some places that might fit the bill. I value the opinions and real world experience of the ski-purist aspect on here vs. random google searches that list “top 10” things.

Anyway, here is my ability and desires.

45yo strong intermediate, who can handle most blacks on normal North American resorts/ basic Snowbird-esque blacks. I don’t seek out nor care for crazy hard or extreme. I like varied and undulating terrain so I can change up turns and work my way down in controlled manner and enjoy my time vs. Super G ripping down the mountain. No thanks. I also love off-piste, finding nooks, exploring and trees. (I know there isn’t a ton of tree stuff in EU but its not a total deal breaker. I don't expect Steamboat but some aspect of this would be nice) In a word, variety.

Things I am looking for is obviously snow quality, lesser crowds. Authentic experience with towns, food and local flair and less touristy. I am not going to be partying but I do want a beer and food at quaint local haunts. When in Rome kind of mentality. I do not care about fashion or being seen. So experience-centric is favored. For comparison I am definitely a Brighton, Alta or Powder Mountain guy over Vail, Aspen guy. I know this sentiment isn’t an apples-apple comparison when talking EU but you get the drift.

I would also like to get to a few different places that might offer good contrasts over the course of say 10 days. Have you a sense of a good “loop” or route that you have done or would suggest for something like this. I haven’t gotten to the transportation aspect yet but I am open to suggestions for sure. Multiple countries/local cultures is a plus. I know across a mountain might not offer a huge variance of culture but I’m tossing that in as a ‘would be cool’ thing. (This isn’t a necessity)

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated, I am finding the scale of places is insane and adds to the mystery. I have come to sort of figure out that a large place like Val d’Isere for example, seems to have many “sections” or pods of lifts and bases. They are all called different names (towns) but are all under the Val D’Isere umbrella? Am I reading that right? (this is part of the daunting aspect of figuring some of this out. What is resort built bases vs actual villages.

Its kind of an entirely new world and I look forward to seeing where it goes. Thanks so much for the help and information. If I am leaving out anything important let me know. I am super flexible and have an open mind on all this.

Thanks!
j
 
My Euro experience is summarized here.
Below the tables are links to my trip reports. From those references I'm generally going to fairly high profile places. Check out James' reports for some more under-the-radar places. Under-the-radar in the Alps can be very large scale by North American standards.

As far as weather/snow is concerned, we usually recommend Weather -to-Ski for the big picture of overall reliability of individual resorts. For short term forecasting We Powder is probably best.

I'm personally a fan of the above tree line terrain, no doubt stemming from my formative ski seasons at Mammoth. But like Mammoth, most resorts in the Alps are extremely limited during storms. Throw in the natural variability of snowfall and I've come to adopt the plan of only reserving plane ticket and car rental far in advance, then deciding where to go on short notice.
1) The Alps are quite compact vs. western North America, so you really can drive from one end or the other in one or two days if weather/conditions so indicate.
2) It helps that our trips are generally 2+ weeks. This plan is harder but still viable for 10 days.
3) Holiday periods need to be avoided, not only Christmas but the whole month of school holidays (vary by country) from second week of February to first week of March. Spring skiing is more popular than in North America so the weeks before and after Easter are popular too.

Most of James' and my trips have been during the 2-3 weeks before the February holidays. March after those holidays is good too but stick to the higher altitude places then.

The other decision you need to make in the Alps is how much you want to ski off piste. In many places you need a guide for safety reasons and even if terrain is not that exposed you can benefit from guiding in learning your way around.

I suspect this answer was more general than specific. Both James and I have been to a large number of places and could answer questions about specific places we have been. I'm about to start a 3 week road trip so trying to keep this first cut response concise. But you'll get a lot of specifics from Weather-to-Ski and James' and my trip reports.
 
jnelly":2kc5ef73 said:
45yo strong intermediate, who can handle most blacks on normal North American resorts/ basic Snowbird-esque blacks. I don’t seek out nor care for crazy hard or extreme. I like varied and undulating terrain (...) I also love off-piste, finding nooks, exploring and trees.

Things I am looking for is obviously snow quality, lesser crowds. Authentic experience with towns, food and local flair and less touristy. I am not going to be partying but I do want a beer and food at quaint local haunts. When in Rome kind of mentality. I do not care about fashion or being seen. So experience-centric is favored.
This ^^ basically describes me so my experience will hopefully be pertinent to you.

As Tony mentions -- while I've skied/enjoyed several large circuits (Portes du Soleil, Megève, Espace Diamant in France, Jungfrau and St. Moritz in Switzerland, and the Arlberg, Hochkönig, Silvretta Montafon, Ischgl, and Kitzbühel in Austria), my sweet spot is the second- or third-tier ski areas, many of which sport Alta-size acreage and larger (often significantly so) vertical drops. He is the opposite, occasionally hitting the smaller places when it makes sense, but concentrating on the big, high-altitude circuits. I'll add feedback this weekend.
 
Tony thanks for the links! They are great. Ill being the process and surely be asking more specifics, but this is a good starting point and all stuff I want to put in the hopper.

James I really look forward to seeing what ya got, I like that we're on the same wavelength there. I knew I'd have to dig a bit more to get to good insight about the "2nd 3rd tier" places so I am super interested to flesh this out more! Thanks guys!
 
Before starting with recommended ski areas or regions, I suppose that this is as good a place as any to list Euro trip-planning best practices (I can't recall if we've done this before). Some of these might be common sense; however, not necessarily to a first-timer.

Timing
The obvious guidance both from a price and crowd-avoidance perspective is: do not visit major ski regions during Xmas/New Year's or the Euro school holidays (depending on the country and region: from the second week of February to the second of March). End of story, don’t do it.

Flights
One of the few upsides from the pandemic is that most airlines have adopted Southwest's longtime no-change-fee policy where you can cancel not only domestic but also European flights without a penalty. The fare is saved for a year as a travel credit. One assumes/hopes that the policy will continue post-COVID.

Road warriors know that cashing in a frequent flyer award earned from an airline affinity credit card (United Mastercard, Delta AMEX, etc.) has historically been the way to go. While the regular tariff these days is 60K miles roundtrip to Europe, we've seen some unbelievable FF promotions in recent years, with Chris C nailing the biggest steal a couple seasons ago: a preposterous 26K miles roundtrip from San Francisco to Zurich. Also, fire sales often pop up where it's worth spending the money on the fare and saving your miles for a different opportunity.

Most people prefer to go to bed early on arrival day to sleep off the jet lag; however, I find that skiing right after landing is a good way to get myself acclimated to the time change. Living on the East Coast is advantageous in that you can catch an early evening nonstop from JFK or EWR to a gateway airport (Geneva, Zurich), arrive by mid-morning, and make at least three hours of turns on arrival day. Sleep enhancers on the outbound flight can make all the difference. There's also a new jet lag app; however, I haven't tried it yet.

Meals
Just like anywhere else, you can spend as much or as little as your budget dictates; however, the real value comes from doing a half-board plan at hotels, where breakfast and dinner is included. Left to your own devices, it's amazing how much you can blow by going out for dinner night after night. That's why the half-board format is key and more often than not I’ve been impressed by the quality and quantity. Equally important, it's really pleasant and civilized to head downstairs for meals at your pre-assigned table. You get to know the wait staff, chat with the owners, meet fellow guests, etc. The only thing that usually isn't included in half-board is beer/alcohol.

Lift Tickets
They’re significantly cheaper than in the States, especially when you consider the high amount of terrain per dollar. At many half-board hotels, a six-day lift ticket for the region is added at a healthy discount. An excellent deal at tony St. Moritz, Switzerland when you stay at one of more than 100 participating hotels: you can purchase daily lift tickets to any of the local ski areas for 45 francs/about $50 (when I was there a couple years ago, it was only 37 francs).

Transportation
A couple times in the past when I spent an entire week at one hotel in a large ski region, I enjoyed taking a train and leaving the driving to someone else. Still, just like in the U.S., a car maximizes flexibility on where and when you can ski, which is a huge plus for me. Moreover, rentals almost always come with GPS (don’t bother paying the ridiculous per-day fee), Swiss Autobahn stickers (which cover highway and/or tunnel tolls), and snow tires in winter. Counter-intuitively, I generally find rental cars cheaper over there than in the U.S., often in the low $200s for a week. Gas is obviously more expensive in Europe; however, the cars tend to be more efficient.

Also worth noting:
-- If you don’t drive a stick, request an automatic in your rental reservation. Virtually all rentals are manual transmission over there.

-- Parking lots at many Swiss ski areas charge $5-ish a day; only the small local’s areas sometimes offer free parking. The reasoning is they feel that people who take public transport to go skiing shouldn’t be subsidizing those who drive, which makes sense, and that the parking lots are owned by the municipalities, not the ski areas. Parking is generally free in other Alps countries.

-- If you’ve never driven over high-altitude mountain passes or on narrow, steep, switch-backed roads with no guardrails keeping you from plummeting over the side, well, sometimes it’ll be easy and sometimes it’ll be seriously white-knuckle. Comparatively: driving to ski areas in the States, even out west, is laughably easy. You can view it as part of the overseas experience or something you don't want to deal with.
 
As a starting point, here are some NY Ski Magazine articles about regions/areas I skied in Austria and France. Each has links at the bottom to individual daily reports with more pix and descriptions about what makes them stand out compared to stateside ski areas. You can also check out the identical reports on this forum with comments by Tony and others.
https://nyskiblog.com/magazine/europe/
 
@jnelly
I have a very limited experience of skiing in Europe but thoroughly enjoyed my time doing so. My intermediate family enjoyed skiing the pistes and taking in the fabulous views but only dabbled off the side of the pistes after snowfall. We did notice that very few skiers ventured off the sides so the fresh snow last quite a long time. If you're a beer lover Austria may be worth a look. We flew into Munich (beer halls) and caught the train from there to the Zillertal valley. We stayed in Kaltenbach but there are numerous towns throughout the valley that are connected by an excellent narrow gauge railway and or bus service. The valley ski pass is about 50Euro per day and covers plenty of ski areas including Mayrhofen and Hintertux that you may have heard of. (This area may be considered a second tier area I suppose).
For in my opinion better food and even better value you could consider flying into Milan and grabbing a car. It's a short drive to the Italian town of Aosta which is close to the junction of Italy, France and Switzerland. Accommodation is fantastic value and food is wonderful. You would have to be willing to drive to the surrounding ski areas though. There is one ski area called Pila which is accessed by a gondola from town so no car required but others in the area include Cervinia (joined to Zermatt in Switzerland for an international border cross on skis), Courmayeur, La thuille (linked to La Rosiere in France for another international border crossing on skis), Chamonix in France (through the Mont Blanc tunnel) and the Monte Rosa area in Italy. The beer is not as good here but the red wine is absolutely great and very very cheap. This option would give you the chance of skiing some Euro icons.
Just a couple of ideas from a novice........
Good luck with the planning.
 
My European ski goals were to ski the large and small freeride expert meccas. I repeated a few in order to ski better snow/powder or see more parts of the off-piste expanse. (3x - Chamonix, Zermatt, Verbier; 2x - Val d'Isere/Tignes, Andermatt, Courmayeur, Val Thorens/Meribel; 1x - St. Anton/Lech, La Grave, Engelberg, Davos, Les Arcs/La Plagne). Most of these resorts also offer plenty of intermediate/advanced pisted terrain as well (except La Grave, Engelberg).

I have not prioritized the mid/small resorts for a couple of additional reasons - my lack of language skills, desire to join guided groups, and harder to find info on ski terrain/lodging.


To expand on Tony & James's comments:

Timing
As mentioned above - the sweet spots are late Jan/early Feb, and most of March. In particular, you can find some very good deals in mid/late January for half-board lodging.

My first couple of trips were booked well ahead of time. This worked great sometimes - like a couple of meters of snow in Chamonix immediately before Christmas 2004/05. However, snow was a bit low-tide (i.e. rocks) at La Grave and 3 Vallees/Val d'Isere when skiing the following winter in late January/early February 2006.

Now, I generally subscribe to Tony's philosophy of pick an Alps gateway city (Geneva, Zurich, Milan) and pick a resort/region with snow. Lodging is readily available.
Why? The Alps are an exceptionally rocky mountain range, and a lot of off-piste might not be available without a 1.5+ meter base in the alpine. Some lower resorts ski fine with less since it's a grassy subsurface.

Flights
The airlines used to have great fares and reward flights in order to keep seats filled in the winter months. Not sure if this excess capacity will exist post-COVID - or what routes might be active next winter.

Meals
The most expensive part of the trip can be food. Again, I echo the above recommendation and would try to find a half-board plan if possible. Also, breakfast can be a hearty meal in the Alps with meats, cheeses, eggs, bread, fruit, etc. Generally, I fill up with breakfast and dinner and minimize food intake on the mountain. Of course, exceptions are made for some sunny days or a good refuge. Typically I will order Goulash soup or maybe the plate du jour in France.

Trees
No. They are illegal in Switzerland. More often Larch forest than pines - which can be tight.


Possible Itineraries
If you are in Europe for 10 days, you could ski one of the large ski complexes and relocate to smaller/mid-size mountains.

Chamonix
My first European ski trip was to Chamonix. It's a great introduction! The town is authentic (touristy, but not a resort, very mountaineering focused.)
What did I like?
Lift Pass (Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass) gives you access to all the Chamonix resorts, but also Courmayeur IT, Verbier CH, Megeve/Evasion Mont-Blanc FR, Mont Blanc Tunnel, Mont Blanc Tram. https://www.chamonix.net/english/lift-s ... passes#mbu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are tree-lined/subalpine slopes for storm days at Les Houches or Megeve.
Vallee Blanche - 10k vertical glacial descent. Epic!
Incredible scenery.
Over 10 days (with a car and friends), I skied Grands Monets, Le Tour, Brevent, Flegere, Courmayeur, Megeve, Les Contamines, and Verbier. 8 mountains/3 countries

You could add a stop at a more traditional French village resort like La Clusaz or Morzine at the end (I have not been to either). Val d'Isere/Tignes or Val Thorens/Meribel/Courchevel could be swapped for Chamonix.

St. Anton
Another great option is St. Anton/Arlberg.
Why?
Highest snowfall region in Europe.
Massive interconnect: St. Anton, Rendl, Stuben, Zurs, Lech and Warth.
Traditional looking villages
Austrian apres ski

There are other smaller/mid-size areas close by in the Voralberg.


Some European Ski Resources I like:

https://www.ultimate-ski.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.wheretoskiandsnowboard.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://wepowder.com/en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
jnelly":fbgm4bu5 said:
I would like to get to a few different places that might offer good contrasts over the course of say 10 days. Have you a sense of a good “loop” or route that you have done or would suggest for something like this. Things I am looking for:
-- Snow quality, lesser crowds.
-- Authentic experience with towns, food and local flair and less touristy. For comparison I am definitely a Brighton, Alta or Powder Mountain guy over Vail, Aspen guy.
-- I don’t seek out nor care for crazy hard or extreme. I like varied and undulating terrain so I can change up turns and work my way down in controlled manner and enjoy my time vs. Super G ripping down the mountain. No thanks. I also love off-piste, finding nooks, exploring and trees.
Of the remaining active FTO denizens, I'm likely the closest fit to your taste and temperament, so here are a handful of regions with off-the-beaten-path ski areas that I can recommend:

Maritime Alps, France
This was a memorable trip due to the region having such a wide range of ski areas and alpine snow culture in close proximity to the Mediterranean.
-- Medium/large: Isola, Auron, and Valberg
-- Intimate and old-school: Roubion and Gréolières (above Cannes -- unfortunately not open while I was there due to low snow)
-- Modern and expansive: Seignus and Espace Lumière

The flair of southern France is evident throughout, both culturally and gastronomically. What’s fascinating and counter-intuitive (at least to me) is how areas in this region, far from the Atlantic storm tracks, rarely see rain during ski season. I would’ve loved to extend this visit to two weeks to add non-skiing activities, including checking out the many medieval villages.

Schwyz, Switzerland
Everyone and their brother tried to dissuade me from going to this gorgeous, comparatively low-elevation mountainous lake district (only an hour from the Zurich airport) during the second week of March. I ignored them, which paid off with one of the more unique circuits I've ever experienced. My high-altitude bailout options were Engelberg and Andermatt within an hour; however, they weren't needed. Highlights included:
-- Arrival day/fresh snow at Hochstuckli
-- Mindblowing lake vistas at Klewenalp, Stoos, and Rigi
-- Grand Targhee-like Mythen (serviced mainly by old surface lifts) on both a storm day and a bluebird day
-- A really enjoyable ski safari across Mythen and Hoch-Ybrig

Steiermark/Salzburgerland, Austria
These two Austrian states are considered to be the Midwest of the country’s ski scene. They’re quite well-known amongst natives and foreigners within a few hours of drive time; however, very few long-distance travelers have them on their radar, which made this circuit feel unique. No superlatives as far as altitude, vertical drop, or snowfall, yet the pix show you that these ski areas would get strong ratings if they were stateside. The gateway airport is Salzburg, which requires changing planes. Still, with a brief layover in Frankfurt, I managed to get in three hours of skiing after landing.
-- Arrival day at Werfenweng
-- Medium/large Tauplitz
-- Convincing one-day stops at Wurzeralm, Hinterstoder, Planneralm, and Riesneralm.
-- A highly recommended ski safari at Hochkönig. I did it in one day, but you should budget two full days there.
-- Impressive lake views at Zwölferhorn

Graubünden, Switzerland
Most skiers would put the Graubünden canton at or near the top of Switzerland’s incredible ski offerings. The challenge is narrowing it down to a manageable seven- to ten-day circuit. One recommendation is using St. Moritz (three hours from Zurich airport) as a three-day bookend and backfilling it with ski areas in between.
-- There are many arrival- or departure-day options within 75 minutes of the airport. Pizol (right along the Autobahn), Toggenburg, and Atzmännig worked for me.
-- Expansive Arosa-Lenzerheide and Obersaxen Mundaun are each worth two full days.
-- Plenty of excellent old-school ski areas including Tschiertschen, Heuberg, and straight out of the 1960s Bivio
-- Brigels and especially Savognin are impressive one-day stops.

The three primary ski areas on the St. Moritz pass -- Corvatsch, Corviglia (Tony had a much better weather day there than me so this is his report), and Diavolezza -- live up to the hype and don't necessarily require a monstrous financial outlay with discounted lift tix available through most of the town's lodging. There are many other ski areas that could be part of this itinerary between Zurich and St. Moritz; these are just the ones that I've visited.
 
@Jamesdeluxe ....So in terms of being the remaining guys seeking these type of places, does that make us geniuses or simply stubborn contrarians? ;)
Anyway, man..choices, choices; this posting is awesome, I like it and thank you for the effort and insight on this. Lots to delve into here and I appreciate it truly! It's interesting you would add the Salzburg area. I was just having a chat with someone about this very topic and the parameters I'm hunting for and they highly recommended the Salzburg/ Amadé region as well. Specifically staying in St. Johann im Pongau. Nice to know that this is a well thought of region by those that have been there.
I was zeroed in, based on of your NYblog, on Arlberg but didn't get the greatest feedback from a few about this due to elevation, ease of access for the whole of EU (read busy and tracked out) if and when it snows and even cost. (All of which brought Salzburg up in conversation.) This particular person IS in Europe so I am sure its all relative. But nonetheless it seems totally counter to you're experience or sentiment.
St Moritz is probably the biggest name I've never considered or even researched (for no particular reason...too ubiquitious probably) but just the other day I read somewhere on here (I think Tony (?) made reference about St. Moritz being quieter then one would think based on the location/lack of need or desire for the Swiss to kill themselves in order to get there. So good tip, Ill have to pull it out of the scrap heap.
Ill be interested to see if anyone else has been to these, please chime in if you have I would love to hear the opinions on any of them.

Thanks again !
 
jnelly":2rwt934b said:
@Jamesdeluxe ....So in terms of being the remaining guys seeking these type of places, does that make us geniuses or simply stubborn contrarians?
It's all personal taste, part of which is that I subscribe to the law of contrary public opinion (per Ricky Roma in Glengarry Glen Ross): "if everyone thinks one thing, I say bet the other way." You can see above with Tony and ChrisC two different but completely legit ways of filtering ski-area choices based on skill level, cultural priorities, conditions preference, and tolerance for crowds/industrial tourism.


jnelly":2rwt934b said:
It's interesting you would add the Salzburg area. I was just having a chat with someone about this very topic and the parameters I'm hunting for and they highly recommended the Salzburg/Amadé region as well.
I didn't even consider Salzburg/Amadé for many years because it's viewed as a mainstream "family" ski region with many expansive ski circuits; however, they generally aren't the marquis high-altitude/free-ride meccas that, say, ChrisC would gravitate toward. As mentioned in my Werfenweng report, the only reason I ended up there was that I cancelled a week before my Pyrenees trip and the Salzburg region had a huge base at that point in the season. In the public consciousness, all of the mountains on my Salzburg/Steiermark itinerary would be considered third-tier (locals/family joints) with the exception of Hochkönig, which is second-tier but in my opinion competes with a first-tier circuit like Saalbach.


jnelly":2rwt934b said:
I was zeroed in, based on of your NYblog, on Arlberg but didn't get the greatest feedback from a few about this due to elevation, ease of access for the whole of EU (read busy and tracked out)
I'd argue that the Arlberg is tolerable as long as you avoid peak periods; however, it's a mainstream ski region with an industrial-tourism ambiance. I'd nudge you just a bit to the west and check out Vorarlberg/Bregenzerwald.


jnelly":2rwt934b said:
St Moritz is probably the biggest name I've never considered or even researched (for no particular reason...too ubiquitous probably) but just the other day I read somewhere on here (I think Tony (?) made reference about St. Moritz being quieter then one would think based on the location/lack of need or desire for the Swiss to kill themselves in order to get there.
St. Moritz wasn't on my radar for years because it was, as you say, mentioned by everyone as a place you have to visit so per the law of contrary public opinion, I wasn't interested. Similar to the Arlberg, it's a region geared toward destination skiers; however, all reports I've read from off-peak periods (including mine) confirm that it manages crowds comfortably. Tony's comparison of St. Moritz to Aspen is accurate -- a bit too long a drive for most big-city people in Zurich and there are so many lift-served mountains/circuits along the way that siphon off the flow of visitors.
 
Good morning!

Having worked as both a tour operator and ski journalist (specialising in Alpine weather and snow-conditions) for more than 25 years, I am happy to offer some thoughts - though It's tricky to advise concisely as there are so many potential options! Here in the UK there is a Facebook page linked to the Ski Club of Great Britain where skiers often ask "where should I go" type questions and end up with hundreds of well meaning but often very contradictory answers which often just confuses people even more. Here is a quote from an article I wrote "The Snow Quality Equation" on www.weathertoski.co.uk which I also think is well worth remembering: "Nothing shapes your impression of a ski area quite like the conditions you encounter on the slopes. Rightly or wrongly, the quality of the snow (never mind the state of the weather) can make or break your holiday, particularly if it is your first time in a resort" I quote this as I often talk to people who will never go back to a particular resort simply because it wasn't in tip top shape when they were there or, conversely, rave about a different resort with a vastly inferior snow-record, that they swear blind is THE place to go, simply because it happened to great the week they booked. My point? Unless you can leave it to the last minute there will always be a big element of luck in how things shape up in your chosen area and you just have to be philosophical. Yes, you can partially mitigate the risk of poor conditions even the most "snow-sure" resorts in the Alps can be disappointing in the depths of winter, as I am sure is also the case in the US. Anyway, enough waffling! My first piece of advice if you want a brutally impartial "tell it how it is" guidebook on skiing in the Alps is to get yourself a copy of "Where to Ski and Snowboard". I used to work for them so can arrange for a copy to be sent to you if you PM me with your details (fraser@weathertoski.co.uk). The last one published covering the Alps as a whole was in 2016 but it's still a good bet. The one downside, as James has pointed out in the past, is that it tends to only cover the major resorts (at least in detail) but it's great for getting a feel for skiing in the Alps and the pros and cons of the big name (and some smaller name) resorts/areas.

Regarding time of year. If you want the best chance of good snow and the fewest crowds then late January to early February is best, not later than 12th Feb when school holidays begin in earnest. Or, if you are ok with more spring-like conditions, mid to late March is another possibility. Most resorts are very busy from Mid Feb to early March so that is the period to avoid at all costs.

I will stop there for the moment but will come back with various resort/areas suggestions in due course.
 
Weathertoski":222fnesx said:
Rightly or wrongly, the quality of the snow (never mind the state of the weather) can make or break your holiday, particularly if it is your first time in a resort. I quote this as I often talk to people who will never go back to a particular resort simply because it wasn't in tip top shape when they were there or, conversely, rave about a different resort with a vastly inferior snow-record, that they swear blind is THE place to go, simply because it happened to be great the week they booked.
Absolutely true and good to have Weathertoski join the conversation with his ski-tour-operator gravitas from the other side of the pond. Since Tony introduced me to him a while back, I've learned a lot about Alps weather and conditions, with his site's A-Z resort summaries being especially helpful. Inversely, he always gets a laugh out of how I manage to find and visit obscure ski areas that aren't on his substantial list. Just goes to prove the extent of lift-served skiing there.

I likewise recommend Where To Ski and Snowboard as an introductory primer for the Alps.
 
How flexible are you with dates and flights? Purely from a snow conditions stand-point the best thing to do would be to wait until you know the snow is good then plan accordingly, even if very last minute. However, with one or two notable exceptions, most of us don't have such luxuries LOL. Another possibility, and probably what I would do if I were in your shoes, would be to pick an airport that gives you easy access to a wide range of resorts then plan an itinerary once sure one area or another is in good shape. Geneva, for example, gives you relatively quick access to quite a wide variety of different climate zones, both on the north and south side of the Alps. Basically, it is unlikely that you wouldn't find good snow within 3 or 4 hours of Geneva, which covers (by car) the entire northern French Alps, the far north of the southern French Alps, half of Switzerland and a large number of resorts in north-west Italy.
 
Weathertoski said:
How flexible are you with dates and flights?

Quite flexible...prob not last minute tho. considering I'm finding decent fares now and have vouchers to use, I might spring for one sooner than later...if I have to cancel, I guess I cancel and toss it on yet another voucher. I set my own schedule and have been eyeing the mid-end January timeframe. I've also been looking at Geneva and Zurich for the flights for the very same reason you mention. So far Geneva seems like it has more directional advantages. But whether it be GVA or ZRH...The game plan has been to pick maybe 3 Marquee places that are still a distance apart as bullseyes and then explore the surrounding scene and use one as the snow-sure spot and others as the weather-proof yin-yang. Hence my seeking the 2nd tier places to, as James said, 'backfill"
 
Ok so GVA and ZRH are both great gateways to the Alps though GVA gives you more options in terms of access to different climate zones.

First suggestion I am going to put out there is the AOSTA VALLEY which is easily accessible from GVA and would give you a nice taste of Skiing in Italy. You could base yourself in Aosta, a valley town with a well preserved and charming historic core, and potentially spend one day in Courmayeur, one day in Pila and 1 or 2 days in the Monte Rosa region.

I haven't skied Pila but it is directly accessible by gondola from Aosta and has a nice variety of terrain for a day including plenty of trees. Ask Tony, he has visited.

Courmayeur is small charming town, on the Italian side of Mt Blanc, with a compact but very varied area, amazing scenery, great off-piste and lots of those "nooks and crannies" that you mention you were looking for. It also has an incredible range of mountain restaurants for its size - probably 30 or so, which adds to the appeal.

In the right conditions though the Monte Rosa region should be the highlight of this area with some seriously good off-piste, big verticals and, again, lots of trees. In fact all 3 areas suggested have a good mix of trees and open bowls, offer lots of variety and a distinctly local (rather than industrialised) atmosphere.

One major resort in the Aosta region that I haven't mentioned is Cervinia. Given what you have asked for I don't think you need to consider this resort as it is purposed built, almost entirely treeless and far more commercialized. However, it is is one of the most snow-sure areas in the Alps, so worth knowing about if conditions in the area are sub-standard.
 
jnelly":rwup6qyu said:
So far Geneva seems like it has more directional advantages.
I've used ZRH as my gateway airport many more times than GVA. Often, it was because flight availability/pricing was better out of ZRH but also because there are a lot of ski areas I wanted to hit in the eastern half of Switzerland and western Austria's Bregenzerwald and Arlberg. It would be wonderful to have nonstop options into smaller Alps airports such as Salzburg, Innsbruck, Lyon, Chambéry, etc. like Weathertoski in London; however, we Americans have to make do with Zurich, Geneva and to a lesser extent Munich and Milan.
 
jamesdeluxe":3qri7912 said:
Absolutely true and good to have Weathertoski join the conversation with his ski-tour-operator gravitas from the other side of the pond.
Yes welcome to Fraser and of course his informative website to which both James and I have posted references before.

weathertoski":3qri7912 said:
Here is a quote from an article I wrote "The Snow Quality Equation" on http://www.weathertoski.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I also think is well worth remembering: "Nothing shapes your impression of a ski area quite like the conditions you encounter on the slopes. Rightly or wrongly, the quality of the snow (never mind the state of the weather) can make or break your holiday, particularly if it is your first time in a resort" I quote this as I often talk to people who will never go back to a particular resort simply because it wasn't in tip top shape when they were there or, conversely, rave about a different resort with a vastly inferior snow-record, that they swear blind is THE place to go, simply because it happened to great the week they booked.
Fraser and I are SO MUCH on the same page here. When I visit a new resort (7 of them in 2021) I always try to do enough research ahead to evaluate whether I'm getting a reasonably normal experience or an unusually good or bad one. And the anomalies can occur over multiple visits. I've had three 2-day visits to Schweitzer, all of them with substantial fog (that's somewhat normal with a large unfrozen lake nearby) and abundant powder. One week after my 2021 visit, James was there in blazing sun and 80+% spring conditions.

Circling back to Fraser's "Snow Quality Equation," some places have much better snowfall track records than others, but snowfall everywhere has high variability. Altitude and exposure OTOH are fixed for a given resort, and those factors become increasingly important by the week starting late February. So it's a very bad idea to commit in advance in March or later to a resort where those factors are unfavorable. In general you would violate that rule only in the case of a significant dump of a foot or more, which automatically makes that a last minute decision.

Liz and I independently had our first visits to the Alps in Chamonix on one week fixed itineraries, Liz with her NYC ski club in 2001 and me with North American Snowsports journalists in 2004. Her visit featured a "weather sandwich" of rain down low but high alpine closed for bad visibility, and her only good ski day was a daytrip to Verbier. This experience soured Liz on the Alps vs. western North America but her next trip (fortunately I was along for this one) with the same ski club to Zermatt in 2014 was spectacular with alternating days of sun and snow and thus abundant powder. My 2004 Chamonix trip was sunny with mostly good snow but it was during a peak February holiday week and there were some long tram waits at Grands-Montets, Brevant-Flegere and Courmayeur.

jnelly":3qri7912 said:
...prob not last minute tho. considering I'm finding decent fares now and have vouchers to use, I might spring for one sooner than later.
Yes the air is what needs to be booked in advance, particularly if you're trying to use miles and/or have clean connections. That Zermatt trip was booked only a month ahead (available due to a cancellation) so we were on a two-stopper flight schedule and my suitcase arrived in Zermatt 30 hours after I did. By that time I'd learned my lesson and was a wearing a boot bag backpack with a day's worth of ski clothes so the luggage snafu did not degrade the trip.

But the rest of the trip really can be left to the last minute if you want when you're not traveling during the peak Euro holidays. Occasionally part of the lodging is booked ahead like my Club Med carryover from 2020 that we'll be using at Val Thorens in 2022.

weathertoski":3qri7912 said:
Regarding time of year. If you want the best chance of good snow and the fewest crowds then late January to early February is best, not later than 12th Feb when school holidays begin in earnest. Or, if you are ok with more spring-like conditions, mid to late March is another possibility. Most resorts are very busy from Mid Feb to early March so that is the period to avoid at all costs.
The early period has more risk of low coverage, but if you haven't booked lodging ahead you're quite unlikely to find the entire Alps in low tide mode. And the good news about the earlier period is that the low altitude resorts can be good and it thus opens up the selection to more of the under-the-radar places. In the later period most of the time you'll want to be at the high altitude places. 2022 will be the first time I've applied the 3-week flexible model to that later period so we'll see how that works out. In 2018 we went to Val d'Isere in April and it was so good we spent the entire 10 days there.

jamesdeluxe":3qri7912 said:
I've used ZRH as my gateway airport many more times than GVA. Often, it was because flight availability/pricing was better out of ZRH but also because there are a lot of ski areas I wanted to hit in the eastern half of Switzerland and western Austria's Bregenzerwald and Arlberg.
James and I analyzed GVA vs. ZRH in another thread. Within a 2 hour radius ZRH is hard to beat with the Jungfrau region, the Arlberg, Davos-Klosters, Arosa-Lenzerheide, Flims-Laax, Engelberg and Andermatt. Widen the distance to 3 hours and now the big French ski complexes, Trois Vallees, Paradiski and Val d'Isere/Tignes come into range from GVA.

weathertoski":3qri7912 said:
First suggestion I am going to put out there is the AOSTA VALLEY which is easily accessible from GVA and would give you a nice taste of Skiing in Italy. You could base yourself in Aosta, a valley town with a well preserved and charming historic core, and potentially spend one day in Courmayeur, one day in Pila and 1 or 2 days in the Monte Rosa region....One major resort in the Aosta region that I haven't mentioned is Cervinia.
Pila was a nice place to warm up the first day after the long flight and a 3+ hour drive. Courmayeur is on the Autostrada on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc tunnel, but I would not base in Aosta to ski Cervinia or the Monterosa. The roads going up those valleys are very slow, 2 hours one way and could be more with traffic or bad weather. We thought Grosseney, the middle valley and thus best ski logistics of the Monterosa, was a low key and charming place. Cervinia has a prominent place on Liz' short list since two of our 3 ski days there were bluebird with a foot of fresh powder. Cervinia is a classic example of a intermediate oriented Euro resort which has very little competition on powder days.
 
Tony Crocker":obo3ywow said:
James and I analyzed GVA vs. ZRH in another thread

Was this something you have a link to? I am unable to find it. It would be interesting to read the merits off both from you guys. At this point they seem like almost a coin-flip based on this thread. I do like the multiple climate zone aspects of GVA as Fraser points out if we're talking picking a gateway and going to the snow. So between all the amazing places James plots as well as Fraser, its poetic that the royal rumble comes down to the lousy airport.
 
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