France - March 2022.

[Sbooker]

And our time in the Alps is coming to an end. An early bus tomorrow to Geneva. We plan a walk around Lake Geneva and dinner before an early night as we fly out early Sunday morning. We’ll arrive back in Oz about 25 hours later.

We went for an early morning run down Sache today. It hadn’t been groomed for a while. There were a lot more very icy patches than the Face or Johan Clary runs. It was a relief to get to the bumps. The afternoon was spent over the Val side. I find the run grading here a bit different to what I have experienced in other Euro mountains. The blues on the Val side would be black in the Dolomites. The unpisted black runs however are not particularly steep but hard work in these conditions. Very hard bumps until at least mid afternoon on the north facing slopes. The east and west facing runs can still be crunchy. I went down one run and it reminded me of the time I got out of my depth in the Deep Temerity area of Aspen Highlands a couple of years ago. I find the crunchy snow brings me undone.

We’re having a couple of pre dinner beers now before our last French dinner. The food has been good but vegetables are not as prolific as I would like. Bread ham and cheese have been our staples. I think potato is considered a veggie here.

The wine however is top notch and very reasonably priced compared to home.

Now we’ve been to both Les Arcs and Tignes I think our choice for our extended stay with the kids next January will be Les Arcs for a few reasons. One being we felt we integrated with more French people in Les Arcs?

Some pics-

The view from the balcony of our modest unit. South facing it catches the sun at most times.

The only time Kylie hit the snow in two weeks. She has a heap more confidence now than when we arrived.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I find the crunchy snow brings me undone.

I don't think that any leisure skier is a fan of crunchy snow. It was humbling to watch Austrians (both racers and mere mortals) carve perfect arcs through rock-hard refrozen cover.

Now we’ve been to both Les Arcs and Tignes I think our choice for our extended stay with the kids next January will be Les Arcs for a few reasons.

Never having been there, reading between the lines it seemed like you weren't completely convinced by Tignes. How much of the larger circuit did you ski?

The only time Kylie hit the snow in two weeks.

I'm sure that she appreciated you posting a pic of her on the ground.

 

[Sbooker]

I don't think that any leisure skier is a fan of crunchy snow. It was humbling to watch Austrians (both racers and mere mortals) carve perfect arcs through rock-hard refrozen cover.


Never having been there, reading between the lines it seemed like you weren't completely convinced by Tignes. How much of the larger circuit did you ski?


I'm sure that she appreciated you posting a pic of her on the ground.

We covered a fair bit of ground in both Tignes/Val and Les Arcs/La Plagne. The accessibility to the valley, La Rosiere and Saint Foye and terrain with extensive tree cover is the thing that makes me think the latter is a preference. That is no way being negative toward Tignes. I just think snow days (more likely in January I would think) would be almost unskiable for gaper Aussies in Tignes.
Kylie doesn’t do ski forums so there’s no issue there but I’ve been very complimentary of her new found speed and confidence.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Kylie doesn’t do ski forums so there’s no issue there but I’ve been very complimentary of her new found speed and confidence.

That pic reminded me of the last time I uploaded a shot of my wife after falling: 2009 at Red River, NM. She likewise doesn't do ski forums; however, I showed her the post and she didn't find it quite as amusing as I did.

 

[Tony Crocker]

It was humbling to watch Austrians (both racers and mere mortals) carve perfect arcs through rock-hard refrozen cover.

It was not uncommon for us to be overtaken by locals on hardpacked pistes in Austria. But some of those people may be one dimensional skiers if they never leave the pistes. Once at Rifflsee two people overtook me on a firmer slope. When the slope turned from NE to SE, they stopped and hesitated while I picked up speed and skied that section more aggressively as the spring snow is MY comfort zone. Lower down one of those skiers almost collided with Liz and fell. So as in any location there are a range of ski abilities, but it is interesting that many of these people think hard snow is their comfort zone.

 

[Sbooker]

It was not uncommon for us to be overtaken by locals on hardpacked pistes in Austria. But some of those people may be one dimensional skiers if they never leave the pistes. Once at Rifflsee two people overtook me on a firmer slope. When the slope turned from NE to SE, they stopped and hesitated while I picked up speed and skied that section more aggressively as the spring snow is MY comfort zone. Lower down one of those skiers almost collided with Liz and fell. So as in any location there are a range of ski abilities, but it is interesting that many of these people think hard snow is their comfort zone.

They could have been on dedicated carve skis? You were on all mountains at about 95mm width? I find it’s much harder to ski piles of slush on skinny skis that something with more width and rocker?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Yes at Serfaus where there was much more slushy snow we made the same observation that our 98mm width skis with rocker were better.

James and I have both observed before that most of the Euros are on much skinnier skis. They have some advantage on the harder snow, but it’s more modest IMHO based upon all those demo events at Mammoth where there has been no new snow for 3+ weeks.

In terms of both scraped hard snow and slush piles in the no recent snow situation, the Alps are much worse than most North American resorts due to higher on piste skier density.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Now we’ve been to both Les Arcs and Tignes I think our choice for our extended stay with the kids next January will be Les Arcs for a few reasons.

We have not been to Les Arcs yet, but Espace Killy had a superlative reputation before we saw it, and due in part to the powderfest we enjoyed in April 2018, it exceeded our expectations. Sbooker commented earlier on its superior snow conditions.

My first comment is that logistics favor staying in Val d'Isere vs. Tignes. The free bus runs every 5 minutes from Le Fornet to La Daille, so it doesn't matter where you end your day; it's easy to get to where you are staying. And if you're skiing Tignes it's a one lift ride (both of them open to 4:45PM) out of either Tignes or Val Claret and then ski a piste to La Daille. By contrast it takes long time to get from Tignes to Le Fornet and back on skis.

As for where to stay, we have only been one day here at Club Med Val Thorens and it seems an ideal setup for families. 5 days guiding is included and there are two sets of parents/teenagers in Liz' group. And of course if abilities are different you can be in different groups. Your son could even be in an all snowboard group! All meals are included and we can vouch for excellent food quality.

While I'm sure you would all enjoy Club Med Val Thorens, there's a Club Med in Val d'Isere too. We skied right by it in 2018.

 

[Sbooker]

We have not been to Les Arcs yet, but Espace Killy had a superlative reputation before we saw it, and due in part to the powderfest we enjoyed in April 2018, it exceeded our expectations. Sbooker commented earlier on its superior snow conditions.

My first comment is that logistics favor staying in Val d'Isere vs. Tignes. The free bus runs every 5 minutes from Le Fornet to La Daille, so it doesn't matter where you end your day; it's easy to get to where you are staying. And if you're skiing Tignes it's a one lift ride (both of them open to 4:45PM) out of either Tignes or Val Claret and then ski a piste to La Daille. By contrast it takes long time to get from Tignes to Le Fornet and back on skis.

As for where to stay, we have only been one day here at Club Med Val Thorens and it seems an ideal setup for families. 5 days guiding is included and there are two sets of parents/teenagers in Liz' group. And of course if abilities are different you can be in different groups. Your son could even be in an all snowboard group! All meals are included and we can vouch for excellent food quality.

While I'm sure you would all enjoy Club Med Val Thorens, there's a Club Med in Val d'Isere too. We skied right by it in 2018.

I’ll look at Club Med but I would think for a family for 3 or 4 weeks it could get costly.

I think the difference in snow conditions between Les Arcs and Tignes would largely be due to the heat wave at the time we were in Les Arcs. Our week in Tignes/Val saw average temps for late March.

Edit. For those that don’t have the budget for Club Med there is another ‘all inclusive’ at the other end of the scale that has a great following.

Séjour Ski alpin : découvrez les centres UCPA

Vous avez envie de pratiquer l'activité Ski alpin lors de vos prochaines vacances ? Toutes les infos pratiques (âge, matériel, niveaux, sécurité) dans nos centres UCPA

www.ucpa.com

That’s the French site but there is a UK one too. They have centres in Tignes, Val D’Isere, Val Thorens, Les Arcs, Chamonix, Sierre Chevalier and others too I believe.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I’m not sure Club Med is that out of line considering lodging, food, lift tickets and 5 full days of guides, which by way includes instruction. All of these are desirable for your family.

It is true that costs are reduced by staying in apartments and preparing your own meals. But James tries to budget his ski $$ carefully, and he believes that the half board hotel packages including dinners are a good value. I’m guessing Kylie might enjoy not having to prepare meals in an apartment too.

 

[Sbooker]

I’m not sure Club Med is that out of line considering lodging, food, lift tickets and 5 full days of guides, which by way includes instruction. All of these are desirable for your family.

It is true that costs are reduced by staying in apartments and preparing your own meals. But James tries to budget his ski $$ carefully, and he believes that the half board hotel packages including dinners are a good value. I’m guessing Kylie might enjoy not having to prepare meals in an apartment too.

To be honest we usually try to do hotel lodging with breakfast and have a light lunch on the hill and then restaurant every night for dinner. My lad has doubled his weight in 2 years and his appetite is frightening.
Even in an apartment we’d eat out most evenings.
We did half board in the Zillertal and Arabba on our trip a few years ago. We loved that.
I’ll check out Club Med.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

James tries to budget his ski $$ carefully, and he believes that the half board hotel packages including dinners are a good value

Anecdotally, the savings from a half-board package seem to be magnified in top-tier resorts like Lech, St. Moritz, Val d'Isère, Les Arcs, or the others visited by Tony, where you can spend a huge amount of money going out for dinner every evening. OTOH, during my recent visit in the Bregenzerwald, a pleasantly undeveloped region, I was able to find quite good restaurants that were modestly priced: three courses + a beer for €20-25. Thus, half-board isn't necessary in a place like that.

 

[Weathertoski]

It’s hard not to be impressed.
1. Good snow conditions even considering the poor season - largely due to elevation and orientation I suspect.
2. A huge variety of terrain from the best pod of beginner green runs I’ve ever seen (off the Borsat chair) to oodles of runs for groomer preferring intermediates to challenging stuff for advance skiers to unlimited serious off piste terrain for experts. There’s also plenty of easy accessed low angle off piste for wannabe advanced skiers like me.
3. Incredible big mountain scenery.
4. A happening atmosphere even for those that don’t do happening. I love people watching in ski resorts and a few minutes above the Folie Douce is as good as it gets.
5. A negative is the cost. We found Les Arcs to be a bit cheaper than Tignes for almost everything and Tignes cheaper than Val for almost everything. (Lift ticket aside).

Val d'Isere is always in the "what's the best ski resort in the world" conversation, in the UK at least. The lift accessible off-piste is arguably THE best in the world and there are masses of inbound runs for all levels. The snow reliability is as good as any big resort in the Alps. The village is quite attractive (unusual for high French resorts). So what's the problem? Two things: First, as mentioned, is cost; it's seriously expensive. Second is the lack of trees. there are a few but if the weather comes in your options are limited. In this respect, it's main rival, Courchevel, is better.

 

[Sbooker]

@Tony Crocker
Crikey. A week at Les Arcs or La Plagne Club Med (considerably cheaper than Val Thorens or Val D'Isere or Tignes) for our family of four in mid January is over $13450 aud. That's a lot of coin. That does not include getting there of course.

I figure an apartment will cost about $1500 aud for the week (should get change out of that).
List passes for six days for the family will be about $1800 aud.
Morning lessons with Evo 2 or Oxygene or a mob similar is about $1250 aud for the family.
Eating out each night (allowing for 160 Euro per night which is plenty even allowing for a couple of wines each for the adults) comes to $1400 aud.
Buying lunch on the hill every day (even though we'd pack a lunch some days or head back to the unit) would be about $700 aud.
That comes to $6750 aud for the week.

I understand we'd have to make the sacrifice of making breakfast in the unit and further understand the instruction may not be 'premium'. But the $6500 difference would pay for a fair bit of guiding. We would not have the spar facility either but we wouldn't use that. I would use the gym frequently and the kids may use the pool on occasion but for 10 Euro a visit there is this excellent facility that I used a couple of weeks ago.

Mille8 aquatic and fitness centre

Swimming pools, saunas, steam rooms and relaxation areas

www.seelesarcs.com

But I get your point. For a set and forget all inclusive no hassle holiday for a family Club Med makes sense. We personally like the planning side of things too so piecing things together is no hassle for us.

Incidentally we did the last trip without a car. A first for us and it wasn't a sacrifice. The train to Bourg was a pleasure. We will likely resume normal programming in the future when travel involves just the two of us but for the next family trip we'll probably stay in the one area and hence opt for the train again. Our lad is a typical 15 year old and moving around a lot would mess with his sleeping in time. As would getting up early to drive to a mountain. I figure staying in the one location will allow the kids to head back to our lodging if they want to cut the ski day short. You will obviously question the boredom factor but being in such a big area and assuming on average at least two fresh snow events over the 3 or 4 weeks I think we'll be fine. And as previously mentioned we could have the odd day out in La Rosiere or Saint Foye very easily. A day to Tignes or 3 Valleys would be a bit more of a mission but pretty doable given it's only 7 minutes on the funicular to the transport hub at Bourg. If Kylie wants a day off the train to Chambery is an option.

I don't know if you have seen this product? Works a bit like the Lake Louise Plus Card.

Ski à la carte

www.skialacarte.fr

There are daily discounts on tickets and the ninth day is free and every fifth day after that is free. Cost of the subscription is 29 Euro for an adult and free for a minor. Areas included are 3 Valleys, Tignes/Val D'Isere, Paradiski, Serre Chevalier and Grande Massif.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

A week at Les Arcs or La Plagne Club Med (considerably cheaper than Val Thorens or Val D'Isere or Tignes) for our family of four in mid January is over $13450 aud. That's a lot of coin. That does not include getting there of course.

$13,450 AUD = approx $10,000 USD

It goes without saying that people's recommendations are based on their level of price sensitivity and the assumption that others have that level of disposable income. Discussions about staying in really nice hotels or multi-day cat-skiing are so far out of my fiscal reality, it's like watching an episode of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous."

I suspect that flights are approx $1500 AUD per person to Europe?

But I get your point. For a set and forget all inclusive no hassle holiday for a family Club Med makes sense.

Agreed, it would be very attractive for a family.

 

[ChrisC]

We covered a fair bit of ground in both Tignes/Val and Les Arcs/La Plagne. The accessibility to the valley, La Rosiere and Saint Foye and terrain with extensive tree cover is the thing that makes me think the latter is a preference. That is no way being negative toward Tignes. I just think snow days (more likely in January I would think) would be almost unskiable for gaper Aussies in Tignes.

I thought Les Arcs skied quite well (from my limited single-day experience in April 2018) and would be a great selection for a longer stay for the reasons you stated. Especially its train/funicular/transportation hub connections.

I parked/started day at Arcs 1800 - it's centrally located, close to La Plagne/Arcs 2000, with forested lower slopes, huge amounts of intermediate terrain, reasonable lift passes, more French/fewer Anglos.

I liked Les Arcs/La Plagne a lot more than I thought I would. Think people sell the complex short. The only architecture I did not really care for was La Plagne Center. And ski-wise, the access to the La Plagne Bellecote glacier was a 1970s relic gondola and should be improved.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I did minimal research on Cub Med Val Thorens. My friend Richard went there with his sister in February 2020. Based on his favorable review and that I was about to ski the Alps solo in March while Liz was rehabbing her shoulder in Florida, Club Med seemed a logical choice. For a couple the $2,500pp for a week compares to about $2,000pp in one of weather-to-ski's 3 or 4 star hotel half board recommendations, so in the same ballpark when you consider Club Med's 5 days of guiding.

For a family of 4, Club Med is not a good deal vs. any arrangement where the family shares one unit of lodging.

For sbooker's family trip next year, if it's indeed 4 weeks, I would think you would want to move around some. The Tarantaise seems a logical region for such a massive amount of ski terrain. Given Val d'Isere's terrain quality and logistics, I think it's worth trying to spend one of the weeks there. In terms of logistics, the high rise apartments at La Daille would be ideal. I have no idea what they cost. And I'm sure Les Arcs is a worthy option for one of the other weeks.

And you should consider Trois Vallees also. I always thought being in the middle valley at Meribel or Mottaret was the logical choice here. But there are really 4 valleys, Orelle being beyond Val Thorens, and I spent most of Tuesday there. And of course this week Val Thorens' altitude makes a big difference in ski quality, when it's quite sloppy below 2,000 meters. FYI there is time to ski Couchevel from Val Thorens, as we did today. Allow about 1.5 hours in transit through Mottaret each way.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Orelle being beyond Val Thorens, and I spent most of Tuesday there

That looks like an interesting back door to the 3 Vallées. I've been threatening for a few years to follow up on a Fraser recommendation, the Maurienne region, in which case I'd certainly stop at Orelle.

 

[Tony Crocker]

You really don't want to be based at the far end of a huge complex like that. Orelle is mostly south facing though it's high altitude. It corned up very well yesterday, not sure how good it would be when colder and/or in weaker sun.

 

[Sbooker]

$13,450 AUD = approx $10,000 USD

It goes without saying that people's recommendations are based on their level of price sensitivity and the assumption that others have that level of disposable income. Discussions about staying in really nice hotels or multi-day cat-skiing are so far out of my fiscal reality, it's like watching an episode of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous."

I suspect that flights are approx $1500 AUD per person to Europe?


Agreed, it would be very attractive for a family.

In January the return flights to Europe from Oz are approx $1500 Aud per person. About $2500 to the US, a bit more to Canada. Japan is about the same as Europe.