If a westerner moved to New England....

[Tony Crocker]

Still, you can't deny that percentage-wise (data!) he scores a lot of very good conditions (in a region where you have to jump on powder quickly) due to his willingness to deep-dive weather forecasts and storm-chase long distances. He doesn't post most of those outings here, especially the molehills; you'd have to look at the reports on NY Ski Blog.

From what I read of 2024, nearly all of Harvey's ski days were on weekends and at Gore. I also get the impression he doesn't like to do any more driving than James does. He resists the idea of skiing somewhere between his home and his place at Gore, grand total 3 hours driving on a ski day! He also resisted staying in his cabin for a few hours after the 2024 eclipse to let traffic clear because he didn't want to drive that 3 hours in the middle of the night. I suspect as a retiree he'll chase the Ontario lake effect storms more.

There are many people who buy a second home and take nearly all their vacations there, then live there part time in retirement. There's a convenience factor in familiarity and not having to schlep lots of gear back and forth. There are a lot of these people at Mammoth. Since spring 2023 nearly all of our Mammoth trips are staying with one of those retirees that we met through Lonnie.

In retirement I try to limit the amount of driving in one day when I'm skiing every day. The exception is at the end of a trip driving home when I'm not skiing the next day. I have driven home after a full ski day at Tahoe several times, and once with Liz from Arizona Snowbowl. We also got home from Mineral King and that nice dinner in Tulare at 1AM last week. I have some sympathy for James in the Alps because he does not have a partner in crime sharing the longer drives.

I'd live a jamesdeluxe-version of his and Liz's lifestyle.

In the Alps the only real difference between us is in length of trip because we are retired and he is not. Our big $$$ are spent on cat/heli and some of the exotic travel, especially the eclipses.

 

[ChrisC]

Are Sugarloaf (lift-served) and Tuckerman's (not lift-served) the only skiable terrain in the east that's above treeline? I guess that Katahdin doesn't count because it's illegal? I think there used to be a Meatheads clip that showed them doing it.

You can hike to the summit of Mansfield above the Gondola, and it's semi-alpine. 'The Slides' at Whiteface are semi-alpine avalanche chutes (whiteface=white/above treeline (again, not lift-served).

 

[ChrisC]

My first choice would probably be around Rangeley, Maine

Saddleback and Sugarload are a little too desolate for day-to-day living.

Sugarloaf has gone bankrupt numerous times throughout its history. Great mountain, but too far from population centers and no bed base. Primarily, the ski resort had to develop real estate to support the increasing number of skiers, following the boom and bust cycle. Vermont (sometimes NH) resorts typically have a valley of inns, which did not require them to play the real estate game.

Additionally, it is worth noting that Saddleback was closed for five years (2015-2020). It is not an economic success and is likely to continue experiencing boom-and-bust cycles. Sure, an investor plowed some money into it, but for how long? Rangely, ME is a snowmobiling town, and an ice-fishing town with a bit of skiing thrown in.

This story is as old as time in remote corners of New England:

• Ascutney. Purchase and managed by UPenn/Wharton MBAs. Lift, inns, and HS Quad to the summit. Result: bankruptcy, everything sold off, and now the town owns it with 1 or 2 surface lifts.
• Burke Mountain. Freaking disaster. A revolving door of owners (40+ years), and always declaring bankruptcy. Nice mountain, now has 2 HS lifts, but not going anywhere. The only thing saving it is the elite Burke Mountain racing academy (i.e. Mikaela Shiffrin).
• Black Mountain. Not a great place - it has low elevation and a south-facing aspect. It's interesting now that Indy Pass/Entabeni Systems has acquired it. Did anyone notice that almost 30% (several million) of the loan is from a friend/family, Newport Rhode Island, wealthy individual? This mountain will be in the red again.
• Tenney. Always a disaster. Broken lifts and revolving door of owners, investors and management. The truth is that it's simply a flat, boring mountain outside of the main NH snowbelt. Gunstock, Ragged, and Sunapee are much more interesting, steeper in spots, and better run.

I would much rather live in a more remote place in New England near a small city (Burlington, Montpelier, Lebanon, Lincoln) with access to the good snowbelt ski areas (Killington, Sugarbush, Mad River, Stowe, Smugglers, Jay, and to a lesser extent Cannon, Wildcat, Loon, Magic).

Yes, it's cool to like places like the above remote areas (Saddleback, Burke, Black, etc), and perhaps co-locate. And it's great to ski them for a day when all the stars align. The reality is that most of these were first-generation ski resorts: the Web 1.0 of the Internet. Like the numerous Railroads of the 19th century. Or many auto manufacturers of the 20th century. I don't mourn the loss of Pets.com or Kzomo; we now have Chewy and Uber.

Many East Coast ski areas were developed in suboptimal locations (poor snow, low population, exposure, wind, and maximum vertical), and it's no surprise that many have since closed and/or have financial stability issues.

 

[Harvey]

Stephan in our Iron Blosam group is part of that NY ski culture, volunteering at Plattekill many weekends.

Is Stephan on patrol at Plattekill?

 

[Harvey]

Now that he's retired and living full-time in the ADKs, he'll be able to bag more powder wherever it occurs throughout the state. .... I simply don't have the stomach for that much driving -- but he does and good for him.

I am hoping to do less driving. It's too much. Certainly I'll do far less per ski day in retirement.

On the upside Jay and Smuggs will be 15 minutes closer to me in the Adk then Plattekill is now.

And Plattekill will be ten minutes closer to the Adk too.

NY and VT. I anticipate more VT in next 5 years.

I'm interested in a Middlebury Snow Bowl Pass. Looks like my kind of hill, and it's the closest to me on the Green Mtn spine.

Time and Distance to Ski Areas

Post your time and distance for drive-to ski areas on your bucket list.

nyskiblog.com

 

[Harvey]

From what I read of 2024, nearly all of Harvey's ski days were on weekends and at Gore.

Ski Day Tracking 2024 - 2025

If you want to track your ski days for 2024 - 2025, post them here. One list per skier please.

nyskiblog.com

 

[jamesdeluxe]

In the Alps the only real difference between us is in length of trip because we are retired and he is not. Our big $$$ are spent on cat/heli and some of the exotic travel, especially the eclipses.

Come on, the length is not the only real difference in our visits. While you're not above occasionally overnighting in a barebones joint like the one in Briançon at the beginning of our Serre Chevalier visit, you also enjoy a fair number of high-end boutique hotels and really nice restaurants, as well you should! Dinner for me in German-speaking regions is usually a Döner Kebab and a Diet Coke (Coca Cola Light over there).

I'd be happy staying in a pleasant three-star hotel like this from my recent visit whenever a decent rate is available.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Another difference between my Alps trips and James' is that he is traveling solo. A lot of my Canadian road trips from 1997 - 2014 were like that. I zealously minimized hotel expenses on those trips and also was not looking for gourmet dinners. There's a much greater incentive for amenities with your spouse/significant other accompanying you.

In terms of Euro amenities it was James who clued me in on the virtues of half board hotels in the Alps, starting with the Sandhof in Lech.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Another difference between my Alps trips and James' is that he is traveling solo. (...) There's a much greater incentive for amenities with your spouse/significant other accompanying you.

Fair enough. We've been stuck in our situation for so long, I forget what it's like to travel as a couple; however, we're looking at a likely market correction in the coming months! Fingers crossed.

In terms of Euro amenities it was James who clued me in on the virtues of half board hotels in the Alps, starting with the Sandhof in Lech.

I've mentioned before learning about half-board lodging in 2005 through a guy on Epicski who, despite being very well-off, knew about the value of hotels like the Sandhof. I'd heard so much doom and gloom that a place like Lech was unthinkable for people like me on a modest budget. The following year, my wife and I weren't able to get a room the same week at the Sandhof but found a different hotel in Lech with the exact same deal. The food, amenities, and infrastructure weren't quite as pleasant but close enough.

Apologies, we've gone way off-topic!

 

[snowave]

Saddleback and Sugarload are a little too desolate for day-to-day living.

Sugarloaf has gone bankrupt numerous times throughout its history. Great mountain, but too far from population centers and no bed base. Primarily, the ski resort had to develop real estate to support the increasing number of skiers, following the boom and bust cycle. Vermont (sometimes NH) resorts typically have a valley of inns, which did not require them to play the real estate game.

Additionally, it is worth noting that Saddleback was closed for five years (2015-2020). It is not an economic success and is likely to continue experiencing boom-and-bust cycles. Sure, an investor plowed some money into it, but for how long? Rangely, ME is a snowmobiling town, and an ice-fishing town with a bit of skiing thrown in.

This story is as old as time in remote corners of New England:

• Ascutney. Purchase and managed by UPenn/Wharton MBAs. Lift, inns, and HS Quad to the summit. Result: bankruptcy, everything sold off, and now the town owns it with 1 or 2 surface lifts.
• Burke Mountain. Freaking disaster. A revolving door of owners (40+ years), and always declaring bankruptcy. Nice mountain, now has 2 HS lifts, but not going anywhere. The only thing saving it is the elite Burke Mountain racing academy (i.e. Mikaela Shiffrin).
• Black Mountain. Not a great place - it has low elevation and a south-facing aspect. It's interesting now that Indy Pass/Entabeni Systems has acquired it. Did anyone notice that almost 30% (several million) of the loan is from a friend/family, Newport Rhode Island, wealthy individual? This mountain will be in the red again.
• Tenney. Always a disaster. Broken lifts and revolving door of owners, investors and management. The truth is that it's simply a flat, boring mountain outside of the main NH snowbelt. Gunstock, Ragged, and Sunapee are much more interesting, steeper in spots, and better run.

I would much rather live in a more remote place in New England near a small city (Burlington, Montpelier, Lebanon, Lincoln) with access to the good snowbelt ski areas (Killington, Sugarbush, Mad River, Stowe, Smugglers, Jay, and to a lesser extent Cannon, Wildcat, Loon, Magic).

Yes, it's cool to like places like the above remote areas (Saddleback, Burke, Black, etc), and perhaps co-locate. And it's great to ski them for a day when all the stars align. The reality is that most of these were first-generation ski resorts: the Web 1.0 of the Internet. Like the numerous Railroads of the 19th century. Or many auto manufacturers of the 20th century. I don't mourn the loss of Pets.com or Kzomo; we now have Chewy and Uber.

Many East Coast ski areas were developed in suboptimal locations (poor snow, low population, exposure, wind, and maximum vertical), and it's no surprise that many have since closed and/or have financial stability issues.

I guess you don't know me very well, ChrisC! I prefer desolate places, especially if there is a decent ski area nearby! As long as there's a few restaurants/pubs, a coffee shop or two, groceries other recreational opportunities, etc... I'm good. I would prefer a semi-local hospital though. The 1 hr away is a bit more than I'd like. My wife does travel several times a year, however if we're 3 hrs or less to an airport, it's all good.

I am aware of Saddleback's history, but didn't know much about Sugarloaf. I get what you're saying about the far away places and having a hard time hanging on, especially in these times. I have noticed in my recent travels how many small/mid size ski areas (even Brundage now) are getting into the real estate game to get more money for improvements, etc. Apex Mtn in BC and 49º North in WA are great examples of this.

Burke Mtn looks kinda interesting. Some nice, long groomers and also fairly remote. (although looks like I-91 is pretty close by).

 

[Tony Crocker]

From what I read of 2024, nearly all of Harvey's ski days were on weekends and at Gore.

That was 2024: 1 Friday, 8 Saturdays, 10 Sundays and 2 Mondays. Harvey must have at least partially retired before 2024-25. Day count jumped from 21 to 38 and only about 1/3 of the ski days were on weekends. In both seasons about half the days were at Gore or the nearby sidecountry near Harvey's second home.

I am hoping to do less driving.

See James! I told you Harvey hates driving perhaps even more than you.

I forget what it's like to travel as a couple

Yes. Tseeb, Lonnie and Patrick also do a lot of road trip skiing solo. All of them are fanatically frugal about lodging and food on those trips.

I guess you don't know me very well, ChrisC! I prefer desolate places, especially if there is a decent ski area nearby!

Perhaps misinterpretation here. The interior NW is the epicenter of high quality (both terrain and snow) remote and mom-and-pop ski areas. The only financial failure was Tamarack, which tried to create a high end destination resort on a mountain not as good as several of those mom-and-pops.

ChrisC is pointing out that remote Northeast is not like remote Idaho/Montana. Many of the Northeast places are severely flawed in terrain and/or snow and struggle financially. It would be very risky in particular to buy property near one of these places.

 

[Harvey]

That was 2024: 1 Friday, 8 Saturdays, 10 Sundays and 2 Mondays. Harvey must have at least partially retired before 2024-25. Day count jumped from 21 to 38 and only about 1/3 of the ski days were on weekends. In both seasons about half the days were at Gore or the nearby sidecountry near Harvey's second home.

Or another way to put it, 12 ski areas, four new. Both seasons (21 and 38 days) were reduced because of the construction of our new home. Lumping Gore together with nordic in the woods? OK.

24/25 was by far the best season of my career. The most powder by a long shot. I retired on December 31, 2024.

When you live 4 miles from NY's biggest (and best tree skiing) area it makes sense you will ski there a lot. Another thing about me, I don't truly care about variety. Snow quality is a big one for me.

Who likes driving?

And I forget, what was your point?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Who likes driving?

Driving is a means to an end. One of those ends is ski quality, which is often enhanced by flexibility of decisions made within the reliable weather forecasting window (Harvey's jaunts for Ontario lake effect being an example). Lots of people like driving far more than flying for this reason and the convenience. Also driving one's own car vs.b a rental is sort of like being is your second home vs. a hotel in terms of familiarity and often snow capability. I'll hazard a guess that Harvey is somewhat rare among skiers in terms of hating both flying and driving as much as he does. I'm sure many NYC and Boston skiers have second homes in Vermont too, for the more abundant natural snow and in some cases terrain quality.

The interior NW is the epicenter of high quality (both terrain and snow) remote and mom-and-pop ski areas.

You're not skiing these places without committing to a significant amount of road time.

When you live 4 miles from NY's biggest (and best tree skiing) area it makes sense you will ski there a lot. Another thing about me, I don't truly care about variety. Snow quality is a big one for me.

Lots of people get a second home near ski areas they like for the huge convenience factor. Harvey's retirement is no different than jimk's in that regard. Mammoth has tons of these people, including the retiree whose house Liz and I stay at for a bargain price since spring 2023. Even road warrior tseeb skis lots of days at Heavenly and Kirkwood near his second home.

And I forget, what was your point?

I was confused about the timing of Harvey's retirement. Going through the two Ski Day Tracking posts made it obvious when that was.