BC Heli/Cat Operations 2023/24

[ChrisC]

My email box has been jammed with almost every heli/cat operator trying to unload December ski dates - some extending into January. Assume everyone is low-tide. I would also be slightly scared that there is not adequate base to cover all the 'stuff' in the woods - lots of hidden sharks that could end a season.

Always thought some places were extended - or starting - their seasons too early in the calendar.

For example, this one from Mustang Powder came today - $500 USD/day for lodging, food, and skiing.

I tried to determine how 'bad' conditions might be.

WEATHER UPDATES
DECEMBER 10 2023

Current Temperature: -7

New Snow: 40cm

Snow Depth: 153cm


This is not too far off their reported mean for this time, but I would be wary. Pillows might not be pillows, but just simply stumps.

 

[EMSC]

One of the guys in my Mustang group last year said he had done 2 of those special price deals that season (both in Dec) plus his 2 regularly scheduled trips. I feel like everyone on these boards said no way was Mustang discounting that much.

I think when time is super short, eg you have to be at the pickup point the next afternoon, is when Mustang gets desperate to fill even at a cheap price. Basically only Canadians in BC and Alberta that can drive last second are realistic candidates.

That said, nearby Revy did delay its opening this year. So could be combo of low tide and normal last second deals by Mustang.

 

[ChrisC]

And the discounting continues: $400 USD / day.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I feel like everyone on these boards said no way was Mustang discounting that much.

I got 3 e-mails from Mustang. There is no question Mustang resists discounting much until the very last minute:
Sun 12/10/2023 11:55 AM: The total cost for the 3 day trip is CAD $3395.25 ($150/day discount)
Sun 12/10/2023 2:30 PM: The total cost for the 3 day trip is CAD $1933.88 (half price)
Mon 12/11/2023 8:09 AM: The total cost for the 3 day trip is CAD $1700 (over half off)

Basically only Canadians in BC and Alberta that can drive last second are realistic candidates.

Flyover's friend John could do it from Seattle.

Snow Depth: 153cm
This is not too far off their reported mean for this time, but I would be wary.

Cut blocks at Mustang are more buried during my February trips than at other cat operators that I have visited. But I suspect the lower altitudes are not good now as some of the storms have been warm with rain up close to lodge level. If weather is good, I would expect good skiing in the alpine and subalpine terrain. But there is another critical issue. It takes a certain level of coverage to build out the snowcat roads. So I don't know how much of Mustang's 30,000 acres is road accessible in the early season or to what degree the road building is delayed in seasons like this one.

To my knowledge Mustang is the only cat operator with tours in early December. Most places start not much before Christmas. But that snowfall record backs up them being able to start earlier than many places.

 

[EMSC]

I got 3 e-mails from Mustang

Interestingly, I have zero emails from Mustang despite going last year and signed up with them this year...

 

[ChrisC]

Interestingly, I have zero emails from Mustang despite going last year and signed up with them this year...

You need to sign up for the 'last minute' trip list. A lot of the operations have them: Mustang, Chatter, Valhalla, Eagle Pass, etc.

 

[ChrisC]

I have received offers/discounts from Mustang, Chatter Creek, Eagle Pass and CMH everywhere. It's a slow December and early season in BC.

One of the guys in my Mustang group last year said he had done 2 of those special price deals that season (both in Dec) plus his 2 regularly scheduled trips. I feel like everyone on these boards said no way was Mustang discounting that much.

What is the riding like in December? I am sure you can have a great time, but it's just going to be on a reduced footprint. Can they get into the Alpine in this early?

 

[EMSC]

What is the riding like in December? I am sure you can have a great time, but it's just going to be on a reduced footprint. Can they get into the Alpine in this early?

Not sure of the open terrain details.

Just that he basically wouldn't want to pay full price for that time frame, but he felt definitely worth the half price deals esp since he could glance at recent snow and the weather forecast to ensure at least decent as can be conditions for early season. He was from Canmore area but also ran a business in Calgary. So ~3.5 hr drive for him.

I suppose I would have asked more detailed questions if I felt I had any chance/flexibility in my schedule (very rare for me right now between work and a 8th grader on ski team).

You need to sign up for the 'last minute' trip list

Probably a to-do for me a couple more years down the line.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Not sure of the open terrain details.

I called Mustang just now. They confirmed my guess that the key limiting factor is building out the cat roads, and that in an average year December open terrain is about 15,000 of 32,000 skiable acres, with priority on sectors higher than the lodge that fill in first. The operator did not know how much was open now, would have to check with the guides. Obviously that 15,000 is a number ramping up over the month; more than half open during Christmas Week is the only further estimate I could get.

What is the riding like in December? I am sure you can have a great time, but it's just going to be on a reduced footprint. Can they get into the Alpine in this early?

Mustang Tenure Map

I first asked about the prime subalpine terrain either side of Amphitheatre Ridge Road: the "Roman " runs to the NW and Showtime, etc. to the SE. They said yes that is an area they try to get early, and Cloud Nine soon thereafter. The farthest north Fifth Creek Zone is not likely open in December. I did not ask, but the close-in runs either side of Ridgeline Road just west of the lodge are mostly tree skiing. I think they would depend upon how low the pickup points are.

 

[ChrisC]

And with 5 seats available, you know a few seats are going to be quite cheap soon.....

 

[Skieric]

Keep in mind, Mustang is sold out for this year. These seats have already been paid for at full price. They are likely reselling for someone who has already paid in full. The first buyer is the one taking the loss.

 

[ChrisC]

Keep in mind, Mustang is sold out for this year. These seats have already been paid for at full price. They are likely reselling for someone who has already paid in full. The first buyer is the one taking the loss.

Agree.

A lot of skiers are backing out of early-season Mustang Powder. Availability now till Christmas.

This cannot speak too positively about conditions (or people's expectations of conditions) if this many are willing to absorb the loss.

 

[EMSC]

Scratching my head a bit. Revy just down the road has been reporting decent recent snowfall and claims majority of alpine/upper mtn is now open... It would be weird if Mustang is significantly worse off just a couple of ridgelines further west.

Then again maybe the forecast over the next week+ looks warm and horrible up there (haven't looked)? I just need it decent for mid-Feb (crosses fingers).

 

[ChrisC]

Scratching my head a bit. Revy just down the road has been reporting decent recent snowfall and claims majority of alpine/upper mtn is now open... It would be weird if Mustang is significantly worse off just a couple of ridgelines further west.

Then again maybe the forecast over the next week+ looks warm and horrible up there (haven't looked)? I just need it decent for mid-Feb (crosses fingers).

No. Decent weather ahead with some snow. Conditions are always better at Mustang/K3 than Revy.

And I am sure the skiing will be excellent in February when you arrive.

It is just strange seeing so many groups/individuals give up their seats - especially if any $ recoup is questionable.

Policy for cancellations made after making final payment or Oct 16th or later. If you cancel your reservation after making your final payment OR later than October 15th, and if we can sell your spot to another person at full price, your deposit will be refunded less the following cancelation fees: • Regular Cat: 10% of the total trip cost per seat + GST, or $400 + GST per seat whichever amount is greater • Private / Small Groups Cats: 10% of the total trip cost per seat + GST, or $500 + GST per seat whichever amount is greater.

 

[Tony Crocker]

And with 5 seats available, you know a few seats are going to be quite cheap soon.....

Which is why I don't think anyone will take a bite at those seats now at full price.

Decent weather ahead with some snow. Conditions are always better at Mustang/K3 than Revy.

+1 Mustang averages 55% more snowfall than Revelstoke.

This cannot speak too positively about conditions (or people's expectations of conditions) if this many are willing to absorb the loss.

I doubt conditions are the reason for last minute cancellations. It's very likely to be injuries (like Adam's wife Alexa in 2022) or other family emergency. My very first interior B.C. trip plans in 1997 were scuttled two weeks ahead by a family emergency affecting the rest of the group. Back then I was able to reconstruct it on my own despite the short notice.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Which is why I don't think anyone will take a bite at those seats now at full price.

I guess they got 4 bites. Of course full price now is over 30% less than in high season.

Thu 12/14/2023 4:15 PM: We have 1 seat available in the REG Cat program December 18 to 20, with arrival to the lodge on December 17, and we are discounting it by $200 a day!

 

[ChrisC]

Some great CMH heli deals - 30% off December and January. Brings it into cat price range.

Link

5 days at CMH Kootenay for $4300 USD in early January

5 days at CMH Bugaboos for $5600 USD in mid January

7 days at CMH Galena for $5600 in late December

 

[EMSC]

Some great CMH heli deals

I remember talking to CMH rep once in Denver. This was about 15 years ago. At that time hey basically said they they had so much repeat business that they didn't even bother to advertise as "the seats filled up by themselves from repeat and word of mouth".

I wonder if there is a large transition in the customer base where current generation is aging out and they now need to discount to younger generation for a while to get them hooked?

 

[ChrisC]

I wonder if there is a large transition in the customer base where current generation is aging out and they now need to discount to younger generation for a while to get them hooked?

I don't know. I believe most of these seats were last-minute cancellations, and CMH was previously close to 100% booked. Even with some low-tide conditions, I am sure the helis could find some solid skiing somewhere in their tenures. 5 days for $5.5k in the Bugaboos?! That's one of the lodges that started heli-skiing.

I always thought they were a bit expensive, but some lodges that were in towns were more reasonable - like CMH Revelstoke or CMH Kootenay. Would do 3-5 days at one of those.

Spoke to Joel Gratz of Open Snow regarding CMH. He has skied CMH Galena, Bobbie Burns, and Monashees - he said Galena was his favorite! Link

 

[ChrisC]

Another email - This time Monashee Powder Guides.

And a bunch of dates. (These were mostly booked (90%+) when I reached out in June).