Bend, Oregon Gets Its Comeuppance

[Harvey]

While not the draconian measures taken by the LA Times and other papers, if I'm not mistaken, the NYT has been forced to drop several parts of the paper, including the popular "city" section.

The Times is a newspaper, so that means it is struggling - newspapers need a new revenue model. But financially the Times is stronger than almost any other paper in the US. I say almost because while the Journal isn't really doing things any better than the Times, the owners have deeper pockets. The ace in the hole for the Times is their property on Times Square, it's worth a billion or two and they own it mostly. Not sure if they have sold it yet, but the plan is to sell it and lease it back. The business plan calls for them to continue to bleed red ink through the end of 2010.

You gotta give em credit for putting out the product regardless. I read the business section every day cover to cover and many days there is ten pages of edit with zero advertising. IMO...the national papers..Times, WSJ and USAToday... won't die. There is a market for the content.

 

[Tony Crocker]

"NYC has more museums, restaurants, theaters, cinemas, and intelligent people than

.. practically anywhere I suspect. If those are your top priorities (or tied to your livelihood in some way like rfarren) I understand perfectly why someone would want to live in or near NYC. And the nice suburbs in places like northern NJ are better than ours in aesthetics and particularly the amount of land you get with your house. I haven't seen those, but I have seen Main Line Philadelphia and some in New England, and I suspect the best of northern NJ is just as impressive.

The I throw here are because this forum is oriented toward skiing in particular and those who value the "active outdoor lifestyle" in general. I lived in NJ for 4 years, and the weather sucks so badly that only the most dedicated would want to spend that much time outdoors. You get 2 windows of comfortable weather in spring and fall. If you're lucky one of those windows might be as long as 6 weeks, but sometimes it's just 1 or 2.

 

[rfarren]

" I lived in NJ for 4 years, and the weather sucks so badly that only the most dedicated would want to spend that much time outdoors. You get 2 windows of comfortable weather in spring and fall. If you're lucky one of those windows might be as long as 6 weeks, but sometimes it's just 1 or 2.

A lot of people live in the northwest in and around Seattle and Portland for outdoor considerations. Is the weather there better? I've always understood that to be a temperate rain forest climate. The time I've spent there has been particularly grey and rainy.

I hate to say this Tony, but your weather bias towards the southwest/california is a bit ridiculous. As you pointed out in another thread there has been only 12 rain delays in LA since the dodgers moved there. What you failed to mention is that if weather patterns continue along with population growth, you'll be shipping water in from the North East by the time of the next rain delay!

Personally, I don't mind the humidity during the summers here at all. The other seasons are fine by me too. Certainly, around NYC it can be maddening in the winter when it rains, and you can't get the mountains while the conditions are good. However, if skiing was the only priority in my life I might consider quitting what I do and moving to Northern VT. I think I would move to VT before moving out west in part because I love the landscape in the rural parts of the North East. I also love the small towns you see around here, whereas the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

As a side note, do they still have days in LA where they warn about dangerous levels of smog?

 

[Admin]

the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

That's an equally inaccurate over-generalization.

 

[Tony Crocker]

A lot of people live in the northwest in and around Seattle and Portland for outdoor considerations.

Summers are very nice, dry and usually temperate. Winters you know about from numerous reports here: 400+ inches and lots of daytrip powder if you can be flexible. Fall is probably depressing like NJ winters, lots of rain but too warm for snow in the mountains.

I see Vermont as win-win for weather vs. MASH. Winters cold enough for snow and skiing most of the time, summers less oppressive.

As a side note, do they still have days in LA where they warn about dangerous levels of smog?

Rarely. When I was in high school breathing was very uncomfortable in summer/fall after an hour of exercise. I was in Claremont, one of the worst places where smog peaked in mid-afternoon. I was in beach cities from 1974-1977. When I moved to Pasadena in 1978 the smog was still fairly high but the peak was around noon and it was not a problem after work. Since the mid-1980's I do not remember anytime with the breathing discomfort that was common in the 1960's and 1970's. Ozone readings, the cause of that discomfort, are probably about 1/4 of what they were then. There may be some places out by San Bernardino/Riverside where it's still noticeable.

Visibility can still be hazy, view over L.A. Basin last Saturday ~11AM

Some of that is natural. Supposedly the native American name for L.A. was "Valley of Smoke." On average L.A. is one of the least windy places anywhere, excepting a few microclimates near the ocean or mountain passes.

The other weather consideration is "if you don't like it, get in the car and drive a couple of hours" to beach, mountains, desert. The Seattle and Portland people also have a near-desert climate on the other side of the Cascades. So we can escape some of our unpleasant weather much more easily than someone in NYC. Our beaches are cooler in summer with onshore breeze over colder water, the mountains are much higher and the desert is mostly sunny even midwinter.

 

[rfarren]

the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

That's an equally inaccurate over-generalization.

Well, not really when you consider the vast majority of the towns and cities out west had their populations booms post the invention of the car. I've driven all over the west with the exception of the south west, and from what I've seen, once you head west of the mississippi the layout of towns change. BTW, I did the drive on small roads, not inter-states as I generally prefer to really see what's around.

So we can escape some of our unpleasant weather much more easily than someone in NYC. Our beaches are cooler in summer with onshore breeze over colder water, the mountains are much higher and the desert is mostly sunny even midwinter.

Well, on the hottest days in NYC we can go to the beach and actually swim without a wet suit. When you go next to the sea the temps generally drop a bit, plus it comes with a breeze. If you're still hot you can go in the water till the sun starts to lose strength. From the city the beach is pretty darn close, so I don't agree with you about getting out if you don't like the hot weather. If you head an hour north the temps also tend to drop quite a bit, especially at night. Personally, I would prefer NYC summers to the summers in Seattle, I like to swim.

BTW NYC gets a lot of sun compared to most places in the north east. I think the NYC gets more sun because of prevailing winds pushing off the atlantic. I noticed how much more sunny winters are here compared to those in Indiana.

Don't forget Seattle is the suicide capital of the USA. I don't think it's because the weather is so pleasant in the winter.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Don't forget Seattle is the suicide capital of the USA. I don't think it's because the weather is so pleasant in the winter.

For most people that may be true. But we're skiers here, and Seattle has to be on the short list of ideal places to live if you ski. Vermont is not a nice place to be in the winter either if you don't ski.

 

[Marc_C]

the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

That's an equally inaccurate over-generalization.

Well, not really when you consider the vast majority of the towns and cities out west had their populations booms post the invention of the car. I've driven all over the west with the exception of the south west, and from what I've seen, once you head west of the mississippi the layout of towns change. BTW, I did the drive on small roads, not inter-states as I generally prefer to really see what's around.

Dude, you're nuts. New England is absolutely no different than anywhere else in terms of strip malls. I actually stopped going to North Conway NH and environs simply because of all the traffic created by the "factory outlet" strip malls. Rutland, Burlington, Brattleboro, WRJ, Waitsfield, and even Stowe are no different.

 

[Patrick]

Don't forget Seattle is the suicide capital of the USA. I don't think it's because the weather is so pleasant in the winter.

For most people that may be true. But we're skiers here, and Seattle has to be on the short list of ideal places to live if you ski.

Well, maybe....I love the West, but I've always said that I would have a hard time to live in Vancouver (although I love the city). The weather is winter...even if there is powder in the mountain. Blah!!!! It would be so depressing, give me an Eastern Canadian winter (southern Ontario excluded) anytime over Vancouver.

I've spent time in France also, rain and fog for weeks ... I can't deal with. Give me blue sky and -20c or snow storms.

 

[icelanticskier]

marc! yer completely nuts!

rob is right on with his statement of out west being strip mall land. yet another reason why i live in new england is a level of longer history and charm that the west could never even come close to matching. all of the places that marc mentioned above are friggin metropolis areas compared to the truly quaint places that he probably blew by at 100 mph for his ski trips coming from nj or ct or wherever he resided. i too have driven and traveled all over the west and haven't seen one single town that compares to out here. it's just so different.

rog

 

[Admin]

rob is right on with his statement of out west being strip mall land.

No.

it's just so different.

Yes.

 

[rfarren]

rob is right on with his statement of out west being strip mall land.

No.

I'm certain there are towns out west that are not like that. Off the top of my head Missoula, and Bozeman. I've never been to Santa Fe, and I'm sure that is amazing. I've also heard amazing things about Taos, and the a few towns around there. However, the vast majority of towns are not like that. It's just a matter of when these places had their population booms.

[
New England is absolutely no different than anywhere else in terms of strip malls. I actually stopped going to North Conway NH and environs simply because of all the traffic created by the "factory outlet" strip malls. Rutland, Burlington, Brattleboro, WRJ, Waitsfield, and even Stowe are no different.

Well, yes and no. Certainly, there are strip malls around here, but it has never seemed as bad to me as out west. Besides, most of the towns around here are around 150 years older than many out west. That tends to lend itself as being considered cuter. However, Marc has a reasonable point.

 

[Admin]

rob is right on with his statement of out west being strip mall land.

No.

I'm certain there are towns out west that are not like that. Off the top of my head Missoula, and Bozeman. I've never been to Santa Fe, and I'm sure that is amazing. I've also heard amazing things about Taos, and the a few towns around there. However, the vast majority of towns are not like that. It's just a matter of when these places had their population booms.

Let's revisit your earlier statement that I took issue with:

the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

When did the vast majority of small rural towns undergo a "population boom"? And Missoula, Bozeman and Santa Fe are not "small towns."

 

[Tony Crocker]

It would be so depressing, give me an Eastern Canadian winter (southern Ontario excluded) anytime over Vancouver.

I would be skeptical of this comment. The persistent gray overcast in winter is a function of latitude as far as I can tell. Interior B.C. has it, and I strongly suspect upper New England and Quebec do too. Also Europe north of the Alps. Patrick has commented numerous times about how depressed the typical non-skier in Ottawa and Quebec is during the winter.

 

[rfarren]

When did the vast majority of small rural towns undergo a "population boom"? And Missoula, Bozeman and Santa Fe are not "small towns."

When was there a population boom out west? Mainly, after the invention of car.

I'm aware that Santa Fe is not a town. Perhaps, I shouldn't have said "small towns" and rather just said "towns." Sorry for what I think may have caused a bit of confusion. I lived in Bloomington Indiana, which was a college town. It wasn't too large, and wasn't tiny. Bozeman and Missoula I believe are smaller. But that is neither here nor there.

If you are going to say that the towns out west have the history and the more concentrated layout of those in the North East you might as well convince yourself that the sky is falling. It is a fact that the North East was settled first. It is a fact that North Eastern towns are more compact than their counterparts out west. It is a fact that the majority of people out west live in places where the population boomed after the invention of the car and in some cases the air-conditioner. These are facts. I'm sorry, it's not like I'm saying that Whiteface has better conditions than Alta.

 

[rfarren]

It would be so depressing, give me an Eastern Canadian winter (southern Ontario excluded) anytime over Vancouver.

I would be skeptical of this comment. The persistent gray overcast in winter is a function of latitude as far as I can tell. Interior B.C. has it, and I strongly suspect upper New England and Quebec do too. Also Europe north of the Alps. Patrick has commented numerous times about how depressed the typical non-skier in Ottawa and Quebec is during the winter.

I think Vancouver may have been the coldest damp, grey place I've ever visited in the winter. I'm not sure, but I would guess they get much more rain and more cloudy days than Eastern Canada. Is it not part of the temperate rain forest?

Tony, where did you live in NJ? I'm surprised you found it so grey. The NYC metro area averages about 225 days of sun a year. Thats about 20 more days of sun than the U.S. average and about 60 more days of sun than Seattle average.

 

[Admin]

When was there a population boom out west? Mainly, after the invention of car.

No, the original population boom came during the gold and silver rush throughout much of the West. The town of Alta, for example, was once a thriving, rough mining town of 5,000. Here in the Salt Lake Valley, it was the Mormon arrival. There are vast, vast areas of the West that never had any population boom whatsoever because the land is just so damned uninhabitable. I'm starting to wonder just how much of the West you've actually seen outside of the ski resorts.

If you are going to say that the towns out west have the history and the more concentrated layout of those in the North East you might as well convince yourself that the sky is falling.

Nobody takes issue with that. Let's keep this on point. Where I call is your original premise:

the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

B.S.

 

[rfarren]

Sorry maybe what I should have said was trailer parks with strip malls nearby! \/ \/

 

[rfarren]

When was there a population boom out west? Mainly, after the invention of car.

No, the original population boom came during the gold and silver rush throughout much of the West. The town of Alta, for example, was once a thriving, rough mining town of 5,000. Here in the Salt Lake Valley, it was the Mormon arrival. There are vast, vast areas of the West that never had any population boom whatsoever because the land is just so damned uninhabitable. I'm starting to wonder just how much of the West you've actually seen outside of the ski resorts.

Right the mormon arrival and now the mormons are what percentage of SLC? Weren't you the one that said, the majority of people in SLC are not mormons. I'm supposing then that they are not part of the boom during the 19th century.

The major population booms in Arizona, California, and Nevada all took place after the 1930's. My guess is that there has been significant growth in colorado since the 30's and in Northwest as well.

Nobody takes issue with that. Let's keep this on point. Where I call is your original premise:

the vast majority of the small towns out west tend to be strip malls with houses nearby.

B.S.

Right:

Perhaps, I shouldn't have said "small towns" and rather just said "towns." Sorry for what I think may have caused a bit of confusion.

 

[rfarren]

BTW, when your in a band that tours by van, you see a lot of this country outside of ski resorts. You get a really good feel for the different regions. There are more strip malls out west than in the north east. A lot of places are strip malls with either trailer homes, or houses nearby. I don't think what I'm saying is particularly controversial for people who study urban development in the U.S.